Tesla retaliates against whistlebowers and unionized workers

[apuszczalowski]

I find unions all depend on where you work and which ones your a part of. I worked the same job in 2 different places with different Union 'chapters'. The one place the union was great, negotiated fair contracts and had good relationships with the employer. There was never really issues with bad workers but they would help with greviances when issues came up. Every year they had a Christmas party for workers families, we all got gift cards for local grocery store to get our 'turkey' at Christmas and last meeting of the year all members were invited for pizza and wings.

 

Worked at another place, same employment but at least twice the staff. I questioned what was the point to having the union and paying dues cause we got nothing from them. No Christmas party or gift cards (said the union could give us anything). Twice I went to talk to them about a few issues (being denied a move that I was qualified for and not being given a chance at another that I was mostly qualified for) and they refused to do anything about it. There was a belief by many in my department that the union president was wanting an upper management position and was happing out the employers side in issues to try and suck up to get in their good side.

 

Now I'm in the same job somewhere else and we are not unionized and there's not much of a difference.

[Ol Dirty B]

On 7/23/2019 at 10:39 AM, MacGyver said:

Elon is trying to move society forward and all people can do is B word about it, typical. Unions are a cancer.

 

Do you know anything about what you're talking about?

[Augie]

I worked PT for UPS seasonally in college. They paid very well! I had 4 hour shifts, 11PM-3AM or 3AM-7AM daily. There was like a 15 minute break in the middle. If I wasn’t thirsty or didn’t have to pee I’d try to just keep going. THAT was not allowed! I was forced to go over and sit on the stairs until my time was up. It just seemed so weird to me.

 

You have the right to sit, but I was FORCED to sit. So I sat on the steps, bored and by myself. I get most of the arguments, but I had buddies in the GM plant and other places with odd but similar stories. God forbid you pick up a piece of trash if your job is to polish the railings. Not saying it’s bad, just not an environment I could imagine living in long term. To each their own. 

[apuszczalowski]

1 hour ago, Augie said:

I worked PT for UPS seasonally in college. They paid very well! I had 4 hour shifts, 11PM-3AM or 3AM-7AM daily. There was like a 15 minute break in the middle. If I wasn’t thirsty or didn’t have to pee I’d try to just keep going. THAT was not allowed! I was forced to go over and sit on the stairs until my time was up. It just seemed so weird to me.

 

You have the right to sit, but I was FORCED to sit. So I sat on the steps, bored and by myself. I get most of the arguments, but I had buddies in the GM plant and other places with odd but similar stories. God forbid you pick up a piece of trash if your job is to polish the railings. Not saying it’s bad, just not an environment I could imagine living in long term. To each their own. 

I can understand the views of this from both sides. If you start working through breaks, the employer sees that maybe they aren't necessary and then you lose them, or they will come to expect you to do more instead of taking breaks. Some of it may also be labour board rules too, requiring you to take breaks instead of working straight through. At the last place I worked at, we took breaks because they would have had us work through them if we didn't for no extra pay. There were days while I was out where I would work through breaks and my lunch because we were busy and I wanted to get things done. I was given an hour for lunch (unpaid) and 2 - 15 minute (paid) breaks every day that I would work through. I would put this down as overtime because they wanted us to work overtime to get things done, but I really didn't want to work past my usually time. Since my lunch was unpaid, I was working over time but it wasnt after my usual work hours. Management told me they would not pay overtime for working through lunch, I was forced to take an hour off during the day and stay an extra hour to get things done (They wanted us to work overtime so they could show that we need to increase staff). Management said that the labour laws stated I needed to take a lunch break and if I didn't , I did not have to be compensated for it.

 

I worked different types of people. There were the ones who didn't care about the union much, it was good to have to protect us from management just deciding to do things to us and let us go just because they felt like it, and then I worked with older tradesmen who were heavily pro union. They were the ones who would memorize the union contracts and make sure everyone worked according to it. They didnt take kindly to people willing to do more then what was required of them

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

On 7/23/2019 at 2:10 PM, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Yeah, if you work for yourself, maybe. Busting your ass for a boss only makes them rich. You get to keep your job with maybe a cut in salary here or increased medical deductible there. Eventually they figure out they can replace you off-shore.  That's the deal when it's just you and your boss. They like to paint pretty pictures about talent and ambition getting you ahead, but really you're just toilet paper.

 

Boy those unions really stopped every manufacturing job from disappearing. 

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

Speaking of which:

 

https://buffalonews.com/2019/07/24/teslas-solar-energy-business-takes-a-turn-for-the-worse/

 

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 

"Green"business" are not on the Agenda to become "successful enterprises" 

Edited July 25, 2019 by ShadyBillsFan

[apuszczalowski]

3 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

 

"Green"business" are not on the Agenda to become "successful enterprises" 

They are taking huge hits because of changes in governments. Trump and the Republicans aren't behind giving tax incentives to people to push green energy. Same thing in Ontario, Ford's conservatives came in and immediately got rid of almost all the green incentives the previous liberal government's had in place. Now without the huge incentives, people can't afford to go green and the industry is taking a hit. There were big incentives in place to by electric cars here in Ontario that made their prices closer to what you would pay for a similar gas model. There were also big incentives in place for Solar panels to be installed on houses, I knew people that said the bank had no hesitation to increase their mortgage and give them money when they went in to ask after being approved for the solar program because the government gave big returns for it. Solar companies were going door to door looking to get you to sign agreements to 'lease' your roof space so they can install panels on them. Since the new government came in these incentives have gone away and now the same companies are struggling to survive cause very few people have the extra cash to invest in installing panels on their house and the average person is priced out of the market for an electric car.

[MacGyver]

15 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

Do you know anything about what you're talking about?

 

You must be a Democrat. Hope you enjoyed the Muller hearings.

[/dev/null]

9 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

 

"Green"business" are not on the Agenda to become "successful enterprises" 

 

Crapitalists love the "Green Business" scam to qualify for Government subsidies, loan guarantees, and tax incentives, then run up a bunch of debt before declaring bankruptcy

[nkreed]

On 7/23/2019 at 11:36 AM, Mark80 said:

 

Unions are most certainly not a cancer.  Their main problem is that they make it too hard to fire a crappy worker.  Grievances, 10 strike and your out discipline plans, only willing to work at a certain station or certain job, things like that.  It would seem obvious to me that a well run union would be open to easily getting rid of the "bad" workers.  It would improve the operations of their companies, potentially leading to more revenues/profits, higher pay/benefits, less offshoring, more jobs.  Instead, they are mostly too consumed with keeping their dues high, to the detriment of their "good" worker members.  Unions are a good idea, that is often executed very poorly and with some obvious corruption.

 

As far as this article goes.  I studied unions at undergrad, took many labor law courses there as well as in grad school.  I never came across a scenario where a company was punishing someone for talking unionization while they were working there AFTER they were no longer employed there.  I'm not sure if that is illegal or not, really.  Certainly it would be if they were working there and were retaliated against, but AFTER, that's a different animal that I have not heard of before.

First bolded point-Just cause isn't "too hard" to prove. What I have seen is that employers will not take the necessary steps and document. This is to make sure that ALL employees are treated the same way. Just think about your place of employment, you know the workers that could get away with murder.

 

Second bolded point- every employee has the right to Union representation. That's not to say that unions aren't aware that there are bad apples. It's not as "easy" as you propose to "get rid of" them.  

 

Third bolded point- How many concessionary contracts will it be necessary for a Union to take before the workers become fed up. The corporate system is set up to pay the top executives exorbitant salaries to make the Wall Street investors more money, on the backs of the working class.  Unions aren't in the game to increase Union dues for plush salaries. They are forced to increase dues because of rising costs for arbitrations etc. Just ask a local representative if their monetary compensation is worth the time they spend on Union issues. (We're talking stewards, chairs, and local presidents who don't have release).

 

[Ol Dirty B]

8 hours ago, MacGyver said:

 

You must be a Democrat. Hope you enjoyed the Muller hearings.

 

I'm not i just know Elon Musk is a disaster.

 

Good to know anyone who disagrees with you is just branded something. Pretty unintelligent way to go through life or understanding other points of view.

On 7/23/2019 at 1:53 PM, MacGyver said:

 

There is really no other option unless you want open borders, medicare for all (including all the illegal mexicans, africans, muslims, yadda) no more cows and planes, slave reparations, etc,  which all sound like incredibly terrible/insane and economically detrimental policies.

 

None of those policies would ever get through the senate. You really have a bizarre or non existant understanding of how the government works.

[MacGyver]

6 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

I'm not i just know Elon Musk is a disaster.

 

Good to know anyone who disagrees with you is just branded something. Pretty unintelligent way to go through life or understanding other points of view.

 

None of those policies would ever get through the senate. You really have a bizarre or non existant understanding of how the government works.

 

Elon Musk is a disaster?  WAT?

[Mark80]

13 hours ago, nkreed said:

First bolded point-Just cause isn't "too hard" to prove. What I have seen is that employers will not take the necessary steps and document. This is to make sure that ALL employees are treated the same way. Just think about your place of employment, you know the workers that could get away with murder.

 

Second bolded point- every employee has the right to Union representation. That's not to say that unions aren't aware that there are bad apples. It's not as "easy" as you propose to "get rid of" them.  

 

Third bolded point- How many concessionary contracts will it be necessary for a Union to take before the workers become fed up. The corporate system is set up to pay the top executives exorbitant salaries to make the Wall Street investors more money, on the backs of the working class.  Unions aren't in the game to increase Union dues for plush salaries. They are forced to increase dues because of rising costs for arbitrations etc. Just ask a local representative if their monetary compensation is worth the time they spend on Union issues. (We're talking stewards, chairs, and local presidents who don't have release).

 

1.  It may not be "too hard" to prove just cause.  However, you have to go through negotiated discipline levels where a "just cause" firing in a non-union world would not.   They could be contractually obligated to be a verbal warning 1, verbal warning 2, then a written warning, then a written warning 2, then a meeting, then a suspension, then a longer suspension, then, finally, a firing.  These rungs on the discipline ladder can mean it can take 5-10 offenses to fire someone sometimes.  Not to mention that previous actions tend to have a time limit, so they come off the ladder.  And add to that the extra cost of doing so with grievance hearings and appeals, etc.  When, in the non-union world this person would be gone after 1 or 2 offenses with no extra expense. 

 

2.  Very true.  This is not the point.  The point I was going for is that in the contracts they make it too hard to get rid of bad employees because of the things I already mentioned.  I remember visiting an auto factory once for one of the big makers.  I noticed a handful of guys sitting around in an area every time I went there.  Finally I asked, what is up with those guys always just hanging out over there?  I was told that their union jobs were in the contract.  Since the company moved their machines out they couldn't work on them.  And instead of re-assigning them to another machine, they went to the union and said this job is in the contract, if the machine is not there to do the job anymore that's not my fault.  They we being paid a full union job salary for literally sitting around all day long not doing anything because they refused to move to another machine.  Absolute insanity.

 

3.  This comment was meant to reflect keeping the actual dues-paying members high, not the dues themselves high.  Yes, the corporate world is BS wage wise, but I would think a stronger union (as described above) would be able to get more out of the company than one that is always fighting them and protecting their problem childs.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Mark80

[Keukasmallies]

On 7/23/2019 at 11:28 AM, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Unions are a balance against unfettered employer power. Just because some got greedy doesn't mean they don't serve a purpose. 

 

Make that "didn't" serve a purpose.  Most original union stances have been co-opted by management over time.  Today, it appears that unions have moved far afield from traditional union "needs" to stay relevant and attractive to potential members; often to the extent as to appear grasping for issues.

[That's No Moon]

[EmotionallyUnstable]

I’m a proud union member and appreciate all they do. Little know the hours of negotiations, meetings, arbitration and planning that goes into providing safety and security to those in my field. 

 

As many have stated, unions provide the balance to employers in order to “level the playing field” for workers. It only takes a single instance to appreciate the support and protection a union/backed contract can provide.

 

Our Union just like many others, does not, and should not, protect against incompetence in the work place. However, as some have mentioned, they can make termination difficult. But I firmly believe the Average Joe isn’t even aware of what a modern union does, stands for or protects. 

[RaoulDuke79]

59 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

I’m a proud union member and appreciate all they do. Little know the hours of negotiations, meetings, arbitration and planning that goes into providing safety and security to those in my field. 

 

As many have stated, unions provide the balance to employers in order to “level the playing field” for workers. It only takes a single instance to appreciate the support and protection a union/backed contract can provide.

 

Our Union just like many others, does not, and should not, protect against incompetence in the work place. However, as some have mentioned, they can make termination difficult. But I firmly believe the Average Joe isn’t even aware of what a modern union does, stands for or protects. 

I worked for the steel workers union for 9 months many years ago.  I had two experiences , both related to job rates, which shaped my opinion on unions.

1. We were slow so I got shifted around to several departments.  I ended up in the paint booth spraying latches for boilers. I went in and worked a normal shift. This was my first day ever doing the job, and icertainly wasn't proficient. I came in the next day and the guy on first shift all but threatened to kick my ass because I doubled the rate.  He said never do that again, you'll ruin it for everyone.  Mind you I barely knew how to do the job.

 

2. Same place.  I was hammering plastic grommets into rail bases and the rate was ridiculously low. I worked second shift 3-11, and made rate by 6 PM. After the first incident I learned the system and spent the next 5 hours in the cafeteria or walking around shooting the ***** with other people. It was a joke. 

 

I turned down a job a few years back because I'm a hands on guy,  and they basically told me to cant touch things because this is a union shop and they're afraid to may try and take their job. How the hell is one supposed to figure things out? 

 

This is just one experience,  and I hope it's not representative of all unions,  but this one was s joke.

[EmotionallyUnstable]

26 minutes ago, RaoulDuke79 said:

I worked for the steel workers union for 9 months many years ago.  I had two experiences , both related to job rates, which shaped my opinion on unions.

1. We were slow so I got shifted around to several departments.  I ended up in the paint booth spraying latches for boilers. I went in and worked a normal shift. This was my first day ever doing the job, and icertainly wasn't proficient. I came in the next day and the guy on first shift all but threatened to kick my ass because I doubled the rate.  He said never do that again, you'll ruin it for everyone.  Mind you I barely knew how to do the job.

 

2. Same place.  I was hammering plastic grommets into rail bases and the rate was ridiculously low. I worked second shift 3-11, and made rate by 6 PM. After the first incident I learned the system and spent the next 5 hours in the cafeteria or walking around shooting the ***** with other people. It was a joke. 

 

I turned down a job a few years back because I'm a hands on guy,  and they basically told me to cant touch things because this is a union shop and they're afraid to may try and take their job. How the hell is one supposed to figure things out? 

 

This is just one experience,  and I hope it's not representative of all unions,  but this one was s joke.

 

Worker stints are a very historic and genuine issue with labor unions. My situation is different in that we have a set schedule, deadlines , etc. I couldn’t imagine that as an employee, let alone an employer burning pay checks on no one working. 

 

Like most things, there are pros and cons

[stuvian]

On 7/23/2019 at 10:39 AM, MacGyver said:

Elon is trying to move society forward and all people can do is B word about it, typical. Unions are a cancer.

the cancer is in your mind

On 7/24/2019 at 10:18 PM, Ol Dirty B said:

 

Do you know anything about what you're talking about?

apparently he hasn't heard of the middle class either