Zeke now says he will hold out of TC unless he gets a new deal

[mannc]

35 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No disrespect here, but I dont think Cooper has been quite as good as you are implying here.  And while I 100% agree with you that he is not "mediocre", I don't think he's quite as good as you are implying though.  Stat sheet totals can be misleading on a guy like Cooper as it hides his inconsistency.

1. Not to be picky, but he has not quite averaged 1000 yards a season.  He's averaging 975.  And while I get that is just 25 yards a year off, for a highly targeted WR1 in a pass happy offense, thats not the kind of production you pay top tier WR money to.  The infamous 1000 yard season isn't the milestone it used to be 20 years ago, especially for a WR1 who is heavily featured in a passing offense with a solid or better QB.
2. Coopers two biggest problems have been terrible consistency and drops, and its plagued him his entire career enough to make Oak trade him and the inconsistent play continued in Dallas.  
3. Even in his 1000 yard seasons, he barely reached that in 2 of them.  And every year for Amari has been the same...a handful of big games surrounded by the bulk of games where he did very little and even cost his teams wins with bad drops.  
   1. Even look at his best season in 2016:  (1153 yards, 83 rec, 5 TD's) 
      1. In 4 games he had:  34 rec, 577 yards (average of 8.5 rec, 144 yds per game)
      2. In other 12 games he had:  49 rec, 576 yards (average of 4 rec, 48 yards per game) 
      3. He literally had less yards in 12 games than he had in those 4 games

In his 9 games in Dallas this trend continued too.  He had 2 monster games totaling 397 yards (217 and 180).  In the other 7 games combined, he had just 328 total yards (an average of 46 yards a game).

 

So that is the conundrum of Amari Cooper.  Every year, he will have 1 to 4 big games while being almost non existent in the rest.  He literally averages less than 50 yards receiving over his career in games he did not have 100+ yards.  And considering he has never had more than four 100 yard games in a season, that means he's averaged less than 50 yards in over 75% of his 4 year career games.  You would be hard pressed to find another WR that is as boom or bust as Cooper is.  

 

Dallas has to ask, what Amari are we going to be paying?  The guy who looked dominant in two games?  Or the inconsistent guy who has also struggled with bad drops?

 

Dallas is in a real tough spot right now...they got 2 guys in Dak and Cooper who are seeking deals that far outweigh their resumes thus far.  Zeke on the other hand has played at the level he is looking to get paid...however, there is a strong case to be made that you dont need the big expensive RB.  So none of the options are real attractive IMHO.  

 

My verdict:  I think I take the sure bet in Zeke that you invested a top 10 pick into before I over commit to either Dak or Cooper.  I am not a guy who wants to pay big money to a RB, but there are those rare special RB's that I would consider doing it, and Zeke and Saquan are the two that I think warrant this consideration.  

I never said Cooper was a superstar, only that he's better than mediocre, which he clearly is.  The only season he did not surpass 1000 yards receiving was when he played only 9 games.  He's a 1000 yard per season guy.  And you did a game-by-game analysis of Cooper's season with the Cowboys, but ignored his playoff game vs. Seattle where he went over 100 yards and scored a TD.  He played pretty well against the Rams, too.   

 

Zeke is a great back, but he's got two more years left on his rookie deal (if you include the 5th year option).  He's also in a great position with Dallas.  It's the most visible franchise in the league, they have a great offensive line, good QB and a very good defense.  He'll eventually report.  If he doesn't, they should trade him to Detroit or Cinci and see how much he likes it.  He's a running back and he can easily be replaced, without too much problem.  Yes, there will be a dropoff, but it's not something they couldn't live with.  He's much easier to replace than Cooper or Prescott, even though he's a better player at his position than either of them.  Elliott's also got off-the-field issues that should factor in to a team giving him a new deal three years into his career.  

Edited August 8, 2019 by mannc

[mannc]

58 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

"Zero"?  You jest...

 

 

In 2018, with Cooper, the Cowboys Offense went from 14th to 22nd.  He had 2 huge games then 4 games with 36 or fewer yards.  In the last 3 games of the regular season, he had only 13 catches on 23 targets for 83 yards and 0 TDs (they went 3-1 despite his relative absence from the Offense).  That's their #1 WR. 

 

Since Prescott's rookie year, the Dallas Offensive point production has plummeted (421-354-339).

 

In 2016 and 2018 (playoff years), the Cowboys went 13-3 and 10-6....yet still could not get past the divisional game in the playoffs.  So if Zeke and Amari and Dak are all together again this season you think they'll win what, 10?, 12?  Ok sure...so who are they going to knock off in the NFCC?  Saints?  Rams?  Eagles with Wentz back?  Seattle, who they barely beat with only Wilson and Tyler Locket showing up)?

 

 

I feel confident that Dallas will be good this year.  I'm not going to try to predict who's going to win specific games, but there's no reason to think they couldn't beat any of the teams you've mentioned.  They could also lose to any of them.  What's certain is that there is more than zero chance of them willing the NFCC. 

[Mr. WEO]

22 minutes ago, mannc said:

I feel confident that Dallas will be good this year.  I'm not going to try to predict who's going to win specific games, but there's no reason to think they couldn't beat any of the teams you've mentioned.  They could also lose to any of them.  What's certain is that there is more than zero chance of them willing the NFCC. 

 

Ok we'll file it under "anything is possible".  Heck, they were "good" last year and in 2016....

 

But that team as currently composed is not trending up---especially on Offense.  And it's going to cost Jones a ton to keep even that level of performance intact.  Sucks to be him...

Edited August 8, 2019 by Mr. WEO

[mannc]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Ok we'll file it under "anything is possible".  Heck, they were "good" last year and in 2016....

 

But that team as currently composed is not trending up---especially on Offense.  And it's going to cost Jones a ton to keep even that level of performance intact.  Sucks to be him...

Do you really think Elliott will continue to hold out if he doesn't get a new deal?  I don't.  He's in a perfect situation in Dallas and has way too much to lose by holding out.

 

And I hate Jerry Jones, but I doubt it sucks to be him?

Edited August 8, 2019 by mannc

[Alphadawg7]

18 minutes ago, mannc said:

I never said Cooper was a superstar, only that he's better than mediocre, which he clearly is.  The only season he did not surpass 1000 yards receiving was when he played only 9 games.  He's a 1000 yard per season guy.  And you did a game-by-game analysis of Cooper's season with the Cowboys, but ignored his playoff game vs. Seattle where he went over 100 yards and scored a TD.  He played pretty well against the Rams, too.   

 

Zeke is a great back, but he's got two more years left on his rookie deal (if you include the 5th year option).  He's also in a great position with Dallas.  It's the most visible franchise in the league, they have a great offensive line, good QB and a very good defense.  He'll eventually report.  If he doesn't, they should trade him to Detroit or Cinci and see how much he likes it.  He's a running back and he can easily be replaced, without too much problem.  Yes, there will be a dropoff, but it's not something they couldn't live with.  He's much easier to replace than Cooper or Prescott, even though he's a better player at his position than either of them.  Elliott's also got off-the-field issues that should factor in to a team giving him a new deal three years into his career.  

 

All good, and I get your side of it, its not unreasonable by any means.  

 

I am just am in the camp that Cooper isn't worth the check is he is seeking until he can prove he can play at top tier level with consistency.   I am definitely not saying hes a bum, but I am only weighing his career against the top tier pay check he is seeking.  He has not been close to the player he wants to be paid to be IMO.  Top tier WR's put up 1200+ yards, 8+ TD's and play with consistency and are reliable.  Coopers never accomplished any of that yet in 4 years...only broke 1100 yards once, never 1200 yards, never had more than 6 TDs despite being a big target, and dropped a lot of passes.   

 

If I have to pay a WR big money, I would rather have a guy who shows up week to week and gets 70 to 80 yards consistently than a guy who averages less than 50 yards in over 75% of his career games and struggles with the dropsies.  

 

Maybe he really blossoms this year in Dallas, and if he does, then pay him.  But I wouldn't pay him until he plays 16 games the way he wants to be paid IMO.  

[aristocrat]

Zeke needs to prove he can stay out of trouble. If he can he’s worth it. Dak needs to have a season like last year or a bit better to sell me but I think he’s developing nicely. 

[Mr. WEO]

2 minutes ago, mannc said:

Do you really think Elliott will continue to hold out if he doesn't get a new deal?  I don't.  He's in a perfect situation in Dallas and has way too much to lose by holding out.

 

And I hate Jerry Jones, but I doubt it sucks to be him?

 

Elliot has been offered a new deal.  If he wants it, it's his.  He doesn't want that particular new deal.

 

I doubt he caves.

[mannc]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

All good, and I get your side of it, its not unreasonable by any means.  

 

I am just am in the camp that Cooper isn't worth the check is he is seeking until he can prove he can play at top tier level with consistency.   I am definitely not saying hes a bum, but I am only weighing his career against the top tier pay check he is seeking.  He has not been close to the player he wants to be paid to be IMO.  Top tier WR's put up 1200+ yards, 8+ TD's and play with consistency and are reliable.  Coopers never accomplished any of that yet in 4 years...only broke 1100 yards once, never 1200 yards, never had more than 6 TDs despite being a big target, and dropped a lot of passes.   

 

If I have to pay a WR big money, I would rather have a guy who shows up week to week and gets 70 to 80 yards consistently than a guy who averages less than 50 yards in over 75% of his career games and struggles with the dropsies.  

 

Maybe he really blossoms this year in Dallas, and if he does, then pay him.  But I wouldn't pay him until he plays 16 games the way he wants to be paid IMO.  

As I understand it, Cooper is playing under the fifth year option this year, correct?  If I'm Dallas, I make him play out the year and if he plays well, then try to sign him or franchise him.  Is Cooper threatening to hold out?  If he is, I haven't heard about it.  

[Alphadawg7]

4 minutes ago, mannc said:

As I understand it, Cooper is playing under the fifth year option this year, correct?  If I'm Dallas, I make him play out the year and if he plays well, then try to sign him or franchise him.  Is Cooper threatening to hold out?  If he is, I haven't heard about it.  

 

This is what I would do as well.  Its not that Cooper is threatening to hold out (I don't know if he is or isnt, and if he is I dont think hes publicly said it)...its that Cowboys said they are doing new deals for Dak, Cooper and Zeke right now.  

 

I just think its risky to give either Dak or Cooper the big pay day they want before they showed how the can play over a whole season together.  

[billsfan89]

10 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Cooper is also mediocre.  Problem is that Jones knows he's going to have to break the bank to keep Prescott around as his 3500 yard, 23 TD QB...AND pay a premium for Cooper's game.  If he pays all 3, he's got the team we see now--a team that has no chance to win the NFCC.

 

Cooper played lights out last season for the Cowboys. He made a big difference and the numbers showcased that, of course Dak is a decent QB who is going to command too much money. 

[Bferra13]

Daks a pretty middle of the road qb. Hes not bad, but he doesn't do anything spectacular. That oline they have there in force makes his life a lot easier. Beasley and Zeke bailed him out a lot last year. Lets see if Witten can be that safety valve that beeznuts was. Id be very hesitant to give him a long term contract. Id go more bridge route, big money short term show me what you got.

[Mr. WEO]

9 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Cooper played lights out last season for the Cowboys. He made a big difference and the numbers showcased that, of course Dak is a decent QB who is going to command too much money. 

 

No he didn't.  and no they did not.  Go back and see my post above. He played lights out for 2 games, disappeared for 4.  That's what he is. Their offense got worse compared to the season before.

[billsfan89]

10 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

No he didn't.  and no they did not.  Go back and see my post above. He played lights out for 2 games, disappeared for 4.  That's what he is. Their offense got worse compared to the season before.

 

I stand corrected he did have 5 games of more than 50 yards and 4 games under. Much more boom or bust, the Cowboys can judge if he is worth a contract by how he plays this season. Definitely needs to be more consistent.

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

 

I stand corrected he did have 5 games of more than 50 yards and 4 games under. Much more boom or bust, the Cowboys can judge if he is worth a contract by how he plays this season. Definitely needs to be more consistent.

 

Oakland already made that judgement fir them.  Check out his “best” season 2016.  Disappeared for whole chunks of that season.  Boom or bust?  How about just bust.  But now the Cowboys are set on giving him top 5 money.  So dumb.

[ALF]

Cowboys Rumors: Dak Prescott Turned Down New Contract Worth $30M Annually

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2849302-cowboys-rumors-dak-prescott-turned-down-new-contract-worth-30m-annually?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_campaign=editorial&utm_medium=referral

[mannc]

On 8/9/2019 at 8:02 PM, Mr. WEO said:

 

Oakland already made that judgement fir them.  

 Not your best argument...

[Mr. WEO]

49 minutes ago, mannc said:

 Not your best argument...

 

Yet still true.

 

Oakland that this is what this guy is like and said goodbye.  Now he's playing the same way in Dallas.  He should play for the Dolphins, since he is MIA so much...

[mannc]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Yet still true.

 

Oakland that this is what this guy is like and said goodbye.  Now he's playing the same way in Dallas.  He should play for the Dolphins, since he is MIA so much...

The Raiders apparently made the same judgment about Khalil Mack.

[Mr. WEO]

8 minutes ago, mannc said:

The Raiders apparently made the same judgment about Khalil Mack.

 

Actually the opposite is true.

 

They correctly saw the one guy on their team with superior talent (coming to a big payday) as a very valuable asset and parlayed him into 2 1sts, a 3rd and a 6th---and they didn't have to pay him the insane money Chicago blew on him (140 mil, 90 guaranteed).

 

You can't build a playoff team around 1 pass rusher.  It was a smart move.  Meanwhile the Bears D went from top 10 to top 3 and they lost the wild card because they needed their kicker to score their points.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

If he likes his old helmet can he please get that conversation going too?