whatdrought Posted August 7, 2019 Posted August 7, 2019 10 minutes ago, nucci said: Rookie draft picks don't have much of a choice and most would not sign a 1 year deal. That's also not helpful to the team I know- there’s a lot of issues to deal with, im just making the point about hold outs in general.
nucci Posted August 7, 2019 Posted August 7, 2019 5 minutes ago, whatdrought said: I know- there’s a lot of issues to deal with, im just making the point about hold outs in general. I get it...it's frustrating
Alphadawg7 Posted August 7, 2019 Posted August 7, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, MR8 said: This is really going to be a hard situation for the NFL. The rookie wage scale and rookie contracts were a major part of the last CBA, and they're already negotiating the next CBA. IF they start to change rookie deals after just 2-3 years and give guys massive contracts, it's going to set the precendent for all rookies to just say after a year or two "Okay I want a massive raise or I won't play." Of course some guys have more leverage than others, Tremaine Edmunds couldn't just hold out now for more money... but what would stop Matt Milano who has absolutely out performed his rookie deal? For the rookie wage scale to be a success, the league has to enforce it... they can't give in and allow players to just stand up and say "NOPE! GIMME MORE MONEY!" The league needs to get a new clause with a tiered "Negotiation" time tables for different rounds ... What I mean is players cannot extend their contract until after the 4th year for first round picks (provided they exercised the 5th year option following the 3rd year). If they don't pick up the option for the player after the 3rd season, they can negotiate a long term deal after the 3rd year. For 2nd and 3rd round players they couldn't negotiate before the 3rd year as there would still be a 4th year for those contracts, but there is no option for a 5th.... and so on for the different rounds. This is obviously not a final plan, but there needs to be something to prevent players from subverting the rookie wage scale going forward or this precedent could catch on and it will be a free for all for all rookies who are good or out perform their deal early. I understand your point, however, I also don't think its as quite as menacing as you think it is. For example, LeVeon Bell just sat out a season...he literally will make less money over his career because of that decision. His deal was no where near what he sat out to try and get, he will never recoup the lost season of earnings and we still haven't seen what kind of impact it might negatively have on him missing a year. Not to mention, these guys miss out on stats for their legacy, potential extra earnings from endorsement deals, losing their job or seeing reduced roles when they come back, etc. I mean Bell is a poster child for this right now, Conner came in and proved they didnt need him. No one saw Conner coming in and making anyone forget about Bell the way that he did. He may not be as good as Bell, but he was close enough at a fraction of the price. Dont know if there is a guy on the Cowboys roster that impact them the way Conner did, but in San Diego their certainly is and Gordon is in jeopardy of losing his job all together if he lets the other RBs come in and help them realize they dont need to pay Gordon some crazy money. Once out on the open market, RB's like this aren't going to get what they want...Bell an Elite RB had very little market interest, even with teams with cap room and even his own Team, The Jets, were split on him and the HC didnt want to sign him for that money. And he had to take less money than what he sat out for. So...in the end, I think the player is risking a LOT to make a move like this and the only ones who will really try this kind of move are the few top end guys who think they can get mega deals. If someone like Milano does it, sure he deserves a raise, but he hasn't played at a level to warrant sitting out for some top of the market deal for a LB or anywhere close to that. He had one good partial season then got hurt. He still has to prove he's back form the injury. But lets say he never got hurt and finished last season the way he was playing before he got hurt. He still wont have the leverage to hold out for some crazy deal and the raise he would ask for would probably be more palatable and of interest to Beane to lock up a young player on a good deal long term. For me, this situation is going to limited to more top of the their position type young players at most, and even then they will have great risk is going down this path as it already worked out POORLY for the guy who started this trend in Bell. Edited August 7, 2019 by Alphadawg7 1
MR8 Posted August 7, 2019 Posted August 7, 2019 4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: I understand your point, however, I also don't think its as quite as menacing as you think it is. For example, LeVeon Bell just sat out a season...he literally will make less money over his career because of that decision. His deal was no where near what he sat out to try and get, he will never recoup the lost season of earnings and we still haven't seen what kind of impact it might negatively have on him missing a year. Not to mention, these guys miss out on stats for their legacy, potential extra earnings from endorsement deals, losing their job or seeing reduced roles when they come back, etc. I mean Bell is a poster child for this right now, Conner came in and proved they didnt need him. No one saw Conner coming in and making anyone forget about Bell the way that he did. He may not be as good as Bell, but he was close enough at a fraction of the price. Dont know if there is a guy on the Cowboys roster that impact them the way Conner did, but in San Diego their certainly is and Gordon is in jeopardy of losing his job all together if he lets them come in and help them realize they dont need to pay Gordon some crazy money. Once out on the open market, RB's like this aren't going to get what they want...Bell an Elite RB had very little market interest, even with teams with cap room and even his own Team, The Jets, were split on him and the HC didnt want to sign him for that money. So...in the end, I think the player is risking a LOT to make a move like this and the only ones who will really try this kind of move are the few top end guys who think they can get mega deals. If someone like Milano does it, sure he deserves a raise, but he hasn't played at a level to warrant sitting out for some top of the market deal for a LB or anywhere close to that. He had one good partial season then got hurt. He still has to prove he's back form the injury. But lets say he never got hurt and finished last season the way he was playing before he got hurt. He still wont have the leverage to hold out for some crazy deal and the raise he would ask for would probably be more palatable and of interest to Beane to do to lock up a young player on a good deal long term. For me, this situation is going to limited to more top of the their position type young players at most, and even then they will have great risk is going down this path as it already worked out POORLY for the guy who started this trend in Bell. You could be right, but then again you keep saying it worked out poorly for Bell, and yet 2 RBs are doing it this year anyways. If the lesson learned by these guys was that it wasn't worth it, they wouldn't be doing it right now. Let's also not forget OBJ and Brown were in the same boat too, so thats what 4 top players in the NFL doing it in the same off-season. Sure it's only the top players who can do it, but the top players are the power brokers because without them teams don't win games. If you give them the ability to set their own pricing, not honor deals, leave whenever they want, teams are left with no recourse and no way to build. It's starting to look more and more like Basketball where players can sign deals and then demand trades anyways. It creates the bad precedent of teams allowing players to not honor deals, so why bother signing them? I don't claim to have all the answers, but the more this happens I see it spiraling not getting better.
Alphadawg7 Posted August 7, 2019 Posted August 7, 2019 16 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: Cowboys are in a tough spot. Their QB is so mediocre, Zeke knows he can hold the owner hostage even though he has 2 years left on his current contract. Plus Cooper will be looking for top 5 WR money for his (maybe) top 25 play. Sucks to be jerry right now.. Cooper was a top 5 guy in Dallas...not the last few years in Oakland, but I will give him credit, he really looked like an impact player in Dallas. Which sucks even more for Dallas because Cooper is going to want to get paid on that small sample size and expect his drops problem and lack of consistency over the previous stop in Oakland to be overlooked. So which Cooper is Dallas getting when they have to pay him? That will be the question. Dak looked like a better QB too with Cooper...so if I am Cowboys, I pay Zeke before I pay Dak and Cooper as I want to see a full season of those guys together before I feel comfortable laying big contracts on either of those guys right now. They have had good moments but also too many meh or bad moments to warrant top tier deals at this stage IMO.
N.Y. Orangeman Posted August 7, 2019 Posted August 7, 2019 4 hours ago, whatdrought said: Why not treat holding out like breach of contract and sue the players? If I was an owner I’d sue them for every dollar I had paid them until that point. Any other business if you sign a contract and then just decide “nah...” there are consequences beyond losing future assets. These situations are governed by the CBA and the fine system. 1
Alphadawg7 Posted August 7, 2019 Posted August 7, 2019 Just now, MR8 said: You could be right, but then again you keep saying it worked out poorly for Bell, and yet 2 RBs are doing it this year anyways. If the lesson learned by these guys was that it wasn't worth it, they wouldn't be doing it right now. Let's also not forget OBJ and Brown were in the same boat too, so thats what 4 top players in the NFL doing it in the same off-season. Sure it's only the top players who can do it, but the top players are the power brokers because without them teams don't win games. If you give them the ability to set their own pricing, not honor deals, leave whenever they want, teams are left with no recourse and no way to build. It's starting to look more and more like Basketball where players can sign deals and then demand trades anyways. It creates the bad precedent of teams allowing players to not honor deals, so why bother signing them? I don't claim to have all the answers, but the more this happens I see it spiraling not getting better. Fair points, but at the same time players frequently make poor decisions and why many go broke after they retire. Also player egos I am sure factor in where they feel like they are better than the other guy (Bell in this case) and their teams will cave because they are too important. It easy to see a trend happening here like you are, I see it too. But, only one has actually followed through with sitting out and the final result was worse than had Bell just taken the deal Steelers were willing to pay him. I mean Gordon to me is another good case where the team isn't likely to cave to a ridiculous deal because they have some good RB's who played well last year in place of Gordon already. I think most people would rate Bell higher than Gordon, and Bell already didnt have a big market for himself despite many RB needy teams with cap space. Plus Gordon has had some fumbling and injury issues on his resume too. So even if he gets out of SD, its doubtful he gets the deal he thinks he should get right now. For me, Zeke has the most leverage because he is the Cowboy offense and you know how consistent he is. Cooper and Dak played well together in a small sample size, but their resumes prior to Cooper arriving were not close to top tier pay levels. So I think they will need to prove they can do it a full year before they can really make a claim to their critical value to the Cowboy offense. But Zeke has already proven it and not sure there is someone on that roster that can fill the value Zeke brings. So I am not saying it wont happen, it clearly still is...but also I will add that as of right now, none of these guys have sat out a season like this except Bell. OBJ didnt, Brown didnt, neither of these RB's. So we don't really know how much of the sit out talk is a bluff or not...and I suspect most will cave and decide not to sit out before truly missing an entire season on their resume and their bank accounts, especially when it ultimately equates to actually making less money and maybe even losing your job. I mean Bell went from one of the best run organizations in football to one of the most dysfunctional. He will say all the right things, but he's making less money on a team with a bad OL, an unproven rookie QB and dysfunctional front office. No way he feels in his heart this worked out better than had he just signed the deal the Steelers offered him so he could remain on a perennial contender with all his friends and teammates.
dave mcbride Posted August 8, 2019 Posted August 8, 2019 18 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: Fair points, but at the same time players frequently make poor decisions and why many go broke after they retire. Also player egos I am sure factor in where they feel like they are better than the other guy (Bell in this case) and their teams will cave because they are too important. It easy to see a trend happening here like you are, I see it too. But, only one has actually followed through with sitting out and the final result was worse than had Bell just taken the deal Steelers were willing to pay him. I mean Gordon to me is another good case where the team isn't likely to cave to a ridiculous deal because they have some good RB's who played well last year in place of Gordon already. I think most people would rate Bell higher than Gordon, and Bell already didnt have a big market for himself despite many RB needy teams with cap space. Plus Gordon has had some fumbling and injury issues on his resume too. So even if he gets out of SD, its doubtful he gets the deal he thinks he should get right now. For me, Zeke has the most leverage because he is the Cowboy offense and you know how consistent he is. Cooper and Dak played well together in a small sample size, but their resumes prior to Cooper arriving were not close to top tier pay levels. So I think they will need to prove they can do it a full year before they can really make a claim to their critical value to the Cowboy offense. But Zeke has already proven it and not sure there is someone on that roster that can fill the value Zeke brings. So I am not saying it wont happen, it clearly still is...but also I will add that as of right now, none of these guys have sat out a season like this except Bell. OBJ didnt, Brown didnt, neither of these RB's. So we don't really know how much of the sit out talk is a bluff or not...and I suspect most will cave and decide not to sit out before truly missing an entire season on their resume and their bank accounts, especially when it ultimately equates to actually making less money and maybe even losing your job. I mean Bell went from one of the best run organizations in football to one of the most dysfunctional. He will say all the right things, but he's making less money on a team with a bad OL, an unproven rookie QB and dysfunctional front office. No way he feels in his heart this worked out better than had he just signed the deal the Steelers offered him so he could remain on a perennial contender with all his friends and teammates. Um ... sometimes before they retire!! https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jul/24/adrian-peterson-nfl-debt-washington 1
mannc Posted August 8, 2019 Posted August 8, 2019 (edited) 20 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: Dak at this point in his career is Alex Smith (you know Smith didn't start all games his first 3 seasons) at his prime as well. And that's with that top O-line in Dallas, and Zeke. And Cooper. To answer your question: Carr, Goff (if he started his full rookie year, o doubt), Newton, Winston, Tannehill... Let's make this easy: If Mahomes was the Cowboys QB, do you think Jones would be sweating out the Zeke demands right now? Of course not. I never said Prescott was in Mahomes's category. He's clearly better than mediocre, though. He's a young QB who has played very well his first three years in the league, while winning a lot of games and playing well in the playoffs. He's not a guy the Cowboys can afford to let go...and they won't, regardless what happens with Zeke Elliott. Edited August 8, 2019 by mannc
Mr. WEO Posted August 8, 2019 Posted August 8, 2019 39 minutes ago, mannc said: I never said Prescott was in Mahomes's category. He's clearly better than mediocre, though. He's a young QB who has played very well his first three years in the league, while winning a lot of games and playing well in the playoffs. He's not a guy the Cowboys can afford to let go...and they won't, regardless what happens with Zeke Elliott. He's been a very consistent middle of the pack producer at QB leading a bottom 1/3 Offense. He needs the massive output of Zeke and a top 10 Defense to produce those wins. With Prescott's firepower behind center, that team is never going to the SB. This is the point I was making. If he was a better QB, Jones would have the leverage all to himself in the Zeke saga. Without Elliot, that's a 6 win team.
mannc Posted August 8, 2019 Posted August 8, 2019 14 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: He's been a very consistent middle of the pack producer at QB leading a bottom 1/3 Offense. He needs the massive output of Zeke and a top 10 Defense to produce those wins. With Prescott's firepower behind center, that team is never going to the SB. This is the point I was making. If he was a better QB, Jones would have the leverage all to himself in the Zeke saga. Without Elliot, that's a 6 win team. Well, they went 3-3 without him in 2017, and that was without Amari Cooper. Elliott is a great back, but he''s still only a RB and therefore highly replaceable.
Mr. WEO Posted August 8, 2019 Posted August 8, 2019 19 minutes ago, mannc said: Well, they went 3-3 without him in 2017, and that was without Amari Cooper. Elliott is a great back, but he''s still only a RB and therefore highly replaceable. Cooper is also mediocre. Problem is that Jones knows he's going to have to break the bank to keep Prescott around as his 3500 yard, 23 TD QB...AND pay a premium for Cooper's game. If he pays all 3, he's got the team we see now--a team that has no chance to win the NFCC.
mannc Posted August 8, 2019 Posted August 8, 2019 15 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Cooper is also mediocre. Problem is that Jones knows he's going to have to break the bank to keep Prescott around as his 3500 yard, 23 TD QB...AND pay a premium for Cooper's game. If he pays all 3, he's got the team we see now--a team that has no chance to win the NFCC. The problem with debating you is that you make blanket statements with zero to back them up. Amari Cooper is not mediocre; he's averaged 1000 yards per season since coming into the league. He significantly improved the Cowboys' offense last year after he arrived from Oakland. And the Cowboys with Dak, Zeke and Cooper won a playoff game last year (in which Dak and Cooper played very well). To say that they have "no chance" to win the NFC is just an absurd statement and barely worth responding to. 1
x-BillzeBubba Posted August 8, 2019 Posted August 8, 2019 (edited) ProFootballTalk @ProFootballTalk Earlier today on PFTOT, @NFLCharean floated an interesting option for the Cowboys to consider via trade, if the Zeke holdout lingers: Bills RB LeSean McCoy. Edited August 8, 2019 by x-BillzeBubba
T master Posted August 8, 2019 Posted August 8, 2019 (edited) It's known as the AB syndrome or better known in other circles as the Bell buster contract disseminator !! And it is contagious cause it seems as though Zeke has caught it ... They started this crap & now you will see every one trying something similar !! I never wish anything bad on a player like a injury but now that AB has this foot thing happening i can only hope that it might shorten his playing time to not be in the consideration with other greats that played the game being humble & honoring the contracts they signed cause i put these guys both in the turd category ... Edited August 8, 2019 by T master
MR8 Posted August 8, 2019 Posted August 8, 2019 15 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said: No way the Bills are looking to move McCoy... his value would be SOOOO low... just doesn't make sense.
Mr. WEO Posted August 8, 2019 Posted August 8, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, mannc said: The problem with debating you is that you make blanket statements with zero to back them up. Amari Cooper is not mediocre; he's averaged 1000 yards per season since coming into the league. He significantly improved the Cowboys' offense last year after he arrived from Oakland. And the Cowboys with Dak, Zeke and Cooper won a playoff game last year (in which Dak and Cooper played very well). To say that they have "no chance" to win the NFC is just an absurd statement and barely worth responding to. "Zero"? You jest... In 2018, with Cooper, the Cowboys Offense went from 14th to 22nd. He had 2 huge games then 4 games with 36 or fewer yards. In the last 3 games of the regular season, he had only 13 catches on 23 targets for 83 yards and 0 TDs (they went 3-1 despite his relative absence from the Offense). That's their #1 WR. Since Prescott's rookie year, the Dallas Offensive point production has plummeted (421-354-339). In 2016 and 2018 (playoff years), the Cowboys went 13-3 and 10-6....yet still could not get past the divisional game in the playoffs. So if Zeke and Amari and Dak are all together again this season you think they'll win what, 10?, 12? Ok sure...so who are they going to knock off in the NFCC? Saints? Rams? Eagles with Wentz back? Seattle, who they barely beat with only Wilson and Tyler Locket showing up)? Edited August 8, 2019 by Mr. WEO
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted August 8, 2019 Posted August 8, 2019 6 minutes ago, MR8 said: No way the Bills are looking to move McCoy... his value would be SOOOO low... just doesn't make sense. likely a fixated rumor. 1
Alphadawg7 Posted August 8, 2019 Posted August 8, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, mannc said: The problem with debating you is that you make blanket statements with zero to back them up. Amari Cooper is not mediocre; he's averaged 1000 yards per season since coming into the league. He significantly improved the Cowboys' offense last year after he arrived from Oakland. And the Cowboys with Dak, Zeke and Cooper won a playoff game last year (in which Dak and Cooper played very well). To say that they have "no chance" to win the NFC is just an absurd statement and barely worth responding to. No disrespect here, but I dont think Cooper has been quite as good as you are implying here. And while I 100% agree with you that he is not "mediocre", I don't think he's quite as good as you are implying though. Stat sheet totals can be misleading on a guy like Cooper as it hides his inconsistency. Not to be picky, but he has not quite averaged 1000 yards a season. He's averaging 975. And while I get that is just 25 yards a year off, for a highly targeted WR1 in a pass happy offense, thats not the kind of production you pay top tier WR money to. The infamous 1000 yard season isn't the milestone it used to be 20 years ago, especially for a WR1 who is heavily featured in a passing offense with a solid or better QB. Coopers two biggest problems have been terrible consistency and drops, and its plagued him his entire career enough to make Oak trade him and the inconsistent play continued in Dallas. Even in his 1000 yard seasons, he barely reached that in 2 of them. And every year for Amari has been the same...a handful of big games surrounded by the bulk of games where he did very little and even cost his teams wins with bad drops. Even look at his best season in 2016: (1153 yards, 83 rec, 5 TD's) In 4 games he had: 34 rec, 577 yards (average of 8.5 rec, 144 yds per game) In other 12 games he had: 49 rec, 576 yards (average of 4 rec, 48 yards per game) He literally had less yards in 12 games than he had in those 4 games In his 9 games in Dallas this trend continued too. He had 2 monster games totaling 397 yards (217 and 180). In the other 7 games combined, he had just 328 total yards (an average of 46 yards a game). So that is the conundrum of Amari Cooper. Every year, he will have 1 to 4 big games while being almost non existent in the rest. He literally averages less than 50 yards receiving over his career in games he did not have 100+ yards. And considering he has never had more than four 100 yard games in a season, that means he's averaged less than 50 yards in over 75% of his 4 year career games. You would be hard pressed to find another WR that is as boom or bust as Cooper is. Dallas has to ask, what Amari are we going to be paying? The guy who looked dominant in two games? Or the inconsistent guy who has also struggled with bad drops? Dallas is in a real tough spot right now...they got 2 guys in Dak and Cooper who are seeking deals that far outweigh their resumes thus far. Zeke on the other hand has played at the level he is looking to get paid...however, there is a strong case to be made that you dont need the big expensive RB. So none of the options are real attractive IMHO. My verdict: I think I take the sure bet in Zeke that you invested a top 10 pick into before I over commit to either Dak or Cooper. I am not a guy who wants to pay big money to a RB, but there are those rare special RB's that I would consider doing it, and Zeke and Saquan are the two that I think warrant this consideration. Edited August 8, 2019 by Alphadawg7 1
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