Needle Posted July 19, 2019 Posted July 19, 2019 1 minute ago, dave mcbride said: PS - For those who were wondering, Elliott has led the league in average rushing yards per game all three years of his career. Over three seasons, his ypc is 4.7, which is really good given the fairly large sample size at this point (868 carries). He's phenomenal and I would pay him. 2 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: Would have been even sillier to do it before Elliot is a dirt bag and a moron but he is a stud. He's too big to the Cowboys not to sign him.
Marv's Neighbor Posted July 19, 2019 Posted July 19, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 2:30 PM, RoyBatty is alive said: Between Melvin Gordon and Zeke maybe our trade value in McCoy/Gore has gone up But we love them!
auburnbillsbacker Posted July 20, 2019 Posted July 20, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 2:29 PM, Bills2ref said: Interesting off season for RB’s. Two are seeing the Le’Veon Bell overpay and thinking it’s the new market value. I think they are sorely mistaking. Didnt Bell receive less guaranteed money than Morse? Was he really overpaid?
plenzmd1 Posted July 20, 2019 Posted July 20, 2019 35 minutes ago, auburnbillsbacker said: Didnt Bell receive less guaranteed money than Morse? Was he really overpaid? who cares..two different positions, can't compare themInhury rates, replacement values, everything different about the position, truly cannot compare On 7/15/2019 at 3:14 PM, Boca BIlls said: I am glad we have old dudes... They couldn't hold out if they wanted. ??? On 7/16/2019 at 10:31 AM, Ethan in Portland said: Most on here didn’t agree with the money Whaley paid Shady. However the Bills have no cap issues and have no need to save money by cutting him. Single Gary is small and comes from a nowhere school. He might be great but it’s a very big if. And the fact Allen came from Wyoming was a very big question mark too. One that hopefully will be answered this year. It was dunb to pay Shady before his contract was over...but that was a different regime who got all scared over Shady possibly not reporting...and then they really look bad for trading the wonder that was the Legend..not the worst thing anyone ever did, but it was a mistake. On 7/16/2019 at 12:23 PM, Jerome007 said: He is very good. But his OLine is better! Some of these guys need reality check. Only the Giants' Saquon Barkley is so damn good he is worth the money and transcends his blockers. For example, I love me some Shady and hopefully he's still got it, but last year with a mediocre OLine he could have been as good as ever the results would have the same dismal ones. this is the right answer. Gurley getting hurt and CJ Anderson coming in off his couch to post simiiar numbers did not help RBs across the board..and I agree Barkley is special 21 hours ago, dave mcbride said: Elliott is an extremely good player and a difference maker. I don’t pretend to know his worth, but at this point in his career (the peak, basically) he’s not interchangeable. That is, he’s not a dime a dozen. Does his presence add up to two WAR (wins above replacement)? If so - and I’m not saying it is - than he deserves to be paid. The difference between 11-5/10-6 and 9-7/8-8 is obviously huge. Even after rookie signings, the Cowboys have over $19 million in cap space. Any extra money that goes to that disgusting pig Jerry Jones is by very definition better spent on someone who is not him. I may have missed it, but i dont think any site has developed WAR for football yet, but i could be wrong. Having said that, running back would never have that kind of value, they are too dependant on variables outside their control....OL, #s in the box, passing game efficency, etc. Running back numbers do not lead to wins. Looks at the Bills all the years they had a strong running game, hell look at the Giants last year with a transcendentant talent at the postion Zeke and Gordon have zero leverage...let em sit, they will be back to play their 4th and 5th year..guaranteed. Sucks to be a RB, but the numbers just do bear out playing the postion that takes the most hits, has the highest injuries rates, is the most easily replaced, and has the least effect on winning games. It was funny heard Greeny arguing the other day that is why you draft a RB high in the first round, pay him his 5 years and move on..and i was dumbfounded by how stupid that statement was. So waste a high round pick on a high injury postion, pay the position at the top of the pay scale for that position, and only plan to have them for the 4 or 5 years...ahh, JETS fans!
dave mcbride Posted July 20, 2019 Posted July 20, 2019 2 hours ago, plenzmd1 said: who cares..two different positions, can't compare themInhury rates, replacement values, everything different about the position, truly cannot compare ??? It was dunb to pay Shady before his contract was over...but that was a different regime who got all scared over Shady possibly not reporting...and then they really look bad for trading the wonder that was the Legend..not the worst thing anyone ever did, but it was a mistake. this is the right answer. Gurley getting hurt and CJ Anderson coming in off his couch to post simiiar numbers did not help RBs across the board..and I agree Barkley is special I may have missed it, but i dont think any site has developed WAR for football yet, but i could be wrong. Having said that, running back would never have that kind of value, they are too dependant on variables outside their control....OL, #s in the box, passing game efficency, etc. Running back numbers do not lead to wins. Looks at the Bills all the years they had a strong running game, hell look at the Giants last year with a transcendentant talent at the postion Zeke and Gordon have zero leverage...let em sit, they will be back to play their 4th and 5th year..guaranteed. Sucks to be a RB, but the numbers just do bear out playing the postion that takes the most hits, has the highest injuries rates, is the most easily replaced, and has the least effect on winning games. It was funny heard Greeny arguing the other day that is why you draft a RB high in the first round, pay him his 5 years and move on..and i was dumbfounded by how stupid that statement was. So waste a high round pick on a high injury postion, pay the position at the top of the pay scale for that position, and only plan to have them for the 4 or 5 years...ahh, JETS fans! Look at what happened IMMEDIATELY to the Cowboys offense in week 10 of the 2017 season, which is when his suspension began. They had been a very good offense, but in three straight games without him they scored under 10 points. He is, without question, a difference maker. I compare RBs with LBs (their positional mirrors), who are similarly viewed as mostly interchangeable. But a player like Kuechly is NOT interchangeable. Same goes for Elliott. 1
plenzmd1 Posted July 20, 2019 Posted July 20, 2019 @dave mcbride, good point, and I don’t remember if the Cowboys changed schemes, gameplans etc when he went out. Sometimes dumb coaches do that. I remember Rex and Roman in that Miami game where Shady started with a bum hamstring, ran the rock like twice and could not continue, then TD Mike came in and they tried running the ball like 3 more times with him, got stuffed , and they basically quit trying to the run the ball after that. Completely changes their game-plan cause Shady was not in. Dumb! I think there are backs who are special , and even the special ones don’t make that make difference in wins and loses.
dave mcbride Posted July 22, 2019 Posted July 22, 2019 Good stuff from Albert Breer on Elliott vs. Gordon: https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/07/22/dan-quinn-atlanta-falcons-tyreek-hill-melvin-gordon-cba-negotiations-nfl-training "I asked some scouts this week about the state of the position, and what the league is getting from its feeder system. It’s clear that the NFL has a smaller top tier at the position than it does at other positions, and a much, much larger second tier. That brings us to the new mold for the elite NFL back, which is a 225-pound (or so) bruiser who can play on all three downs. That’s Elliott. It’s also Todd Gurley and Saquon Barkley and was, and may be again, Le’Veon Bell. David Johnson, for a time, probably was in this category too. “Those four are all from the same mold—they’re 220 pounds, they can play all three downs, they’re rare,” said one NFC personnel man, who evaluated all of them coming out. “Maybe they become less rare in time, but they’re unicorns now. And to replace one, you need three guys – two first- and second-down runners, and then a third-down guy.” They also give a team something it can’t get from a combination of players: a queen-on-the-chess-board dynamic facilitated by their versatility, which is brought to life in how defenses aren’t getting a tell on what the offense is doing when they’re on the field. So where does that leave a player like Gordon? His problem isn’t that he’s really good. He is. His issue is that there are too many good players at his position, which makes backs who aren’t in the aforementioned “unicorn” category replaceable (and even those unicorns at the position can be approximated to a degree, as C.J. Anderson and James Conner showed last year). And proof of it is how Justin Jackson and Austin Ekeler kept the Chargers rolling in Gordon’s stead last year. There’s also a third category here, encompassing players like Christian McCaffrey and Alvin Kamara with outrageous versatility that can play all over the formation. And the value of that type was shown in how Jerick McKinnon, a lesser player than McCaffrey or Kamara, got paid last year by the Niners. This is all why my guess now would be that the Chargers, based on their own history and the state of the position, sit tight and wait for Gordon to show up. And it’s why I think that Dallas has to pay Elliott, who is both their offense’s engine and a big piece of the equation in how they’ve developed their young quarterback (like Gurley was with Jared Goff). I asked two scouts that work, and have worked, for teams that never pay backs whether or not they’d pay Elliott if they were Dallas. One quickly said yes. The other came around, after about 15 seconds of consternation. “I’d be nervous,” said this AFC exec. “You have the injury question, you see what happened with Gurley, and you have to take care of Dak and Amari (Cooper). But would I pay Zeke? I probably would. He’s that good.” 1
Alphadawg7 Posted July 22, 2019 Posted July 22, 2019 Zeke is the engine that runs the Dallas offense. Dak isn't good enough to carry that team without him. So I think Zeke has some leverage here for sure, and Dallas knows it. Just look at the games while he was suspended and when he wasn't. Gordon has less leverage IMO, he's not as good as Zeke and has injury concerns too. He's a very good RB still, but just not on the level of Zeke. And Chargers have other good RB's on that roster and a HOF QB still slinging the ball very well to some good WR's. He just isnt as integral to the Charger offense as Zeke is to the Cowboys, so I don't think he has a lot of leverage in his situation personally. Be interesting to see how these two situations play out.
MAJBobby Posted July 22, 2019 Posted July 22, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 1:57 PM, Canadian Bills Fan said: Just reported https://www.thescore.com/nfl/news/1798273 These RB trying to pull Bell leverage. Problem is both Zeke and Gordon do not have that same leverage. They have to show up or will be fined. They have to report by week 10 to gain a season and are still looking down the barrel of two Franchise Tags.
Mr. WEO Posted July 23, 2019 Posted July 23, 2019 4 hours ago, MAJBobby said: These RB trying to pull Bell leverage. Problem is both Zeke and Gordon do not have that same leverage. They have to show up or will be fined. They have to report by week 10 to gain a season and are still looking down the barrel of two Franchise Tags. What was "Bell leverage"?
dave mcbride Posted July 23, 2019 Posted July 23, 2019 4 hours ago, MAJBobby said: These RB trying to pull Bell leverage. Problem is both Zeke and Gordon do not have that same leverage. They have to show up or will be fined. They have to report by week 10 to gain a season and are still looking down the barrel of two Franchise Tags. Zeke definitely has leverage. Jerry Jones wants to win another SB *badly* and he ain't getting any younger.
MAJBobby Posted July 23, 2019 Posted July 23, 2019 9 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: What was "Bell leverage"? QB Money. 9 hours ago, dave mcbride said: Zeke definitely has leverage. Jerry Jones wants to win another SB *badly* and he ain't getting any younger. No leverage. Has to show up or get fined. Has to show up to get credit for year. Still has 2 Franchise Tags to stare down
Mr. WEO Posted July 23, 2019 Posted July 23, 2019 2 hours ago, MAJBobby said: QB Money. No leverage. Has to show up or get fined. Has to show up to get credit for year. Still has 2 Franchise Tags to stare down His leverage was....."QB money"? In that case, he's not even getting Andy Dalton money.
MAJBobby Posted July 23, 2019 Posted July 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said: His leverage was....."QB money"? In that case, he's not even getting Andy Dalton money. That was Bell. By not signing the Franchise Tag. No Fines. And then the 3rd Tag would have given him too 5 QB Money. Now THAT was leverage.
Mr. WEO Posted July 23, 2019 Posted July 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: That was Bell. By not signing the Franchise Tag. No Fines. And then the 3rd Tag would have given him too 5 QB Money. Now THAT was leverage. 1. "leverage" is what compels a team to acquiesce to your demands. The Steelers just ignored him after he turned down a very good offer. Then they moved on. THAT'S zero leverage. 2. Bell is not a QB, so he wouldn't have made "top 5 QB money". He would have gotten 14.5 million for 2018, which, in average salary, would have placed him at 20th for QB's--behind every QB not still on a rookie contract.
MAJBobby Posted July 23, 2019 Posted July 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said: 1. "leverage" is what compels a team to acquiesce to your demands. The Steelers just ignored him after he turned down a very good offer. Then they moved on. THAT'S zero leverage. 2. Bell is not a QB, so he wouldn't have made "top 5 QB money". He would have gotten 14.5 million for 2018, which, in average salary, would have placed him at 20th for QB's--behind every QB not still on a rookie contract. 3rd Tag in 2019 would have been QB money. So yes he had leverage to get out of Pitt or to get paid. He used it. In the case of Bell, if he were to be tagged again by the Steelers in 2019, it would count as his third franchise tag; it would not revert to his second. Per the CBA, Pittsburgh in that case would be required to tender Bell non-exclusively (with first- and third-round comp picks attached) at the average of the top five highest-paid players at the league's highest-paid position. now both Zeke and Gordon do not have that leverage. They will get fined every absence. Then face their 1st Franchise Tag after season.
dave mcbride Posted July 23, 2019 Posted July 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: 3rd Tag in 2019 would have been QB money. So yes he had leverage to get out of Pitt or to get paid. He used it. In the case of Bell, if he were to be tagged again by the Steelers in 2019, it would count as his third franchise tag; it would not revert to his second. Per the CBA, Pittsburgh in that case would be required to tender Bell non-exclusively (with first- and third-round comp picks attached) at the average of the top five highest-paid players at the league's highest-paid position. now both Zeke and Gordon do not have that leverage. They will get fined every absence. Then face their 1st Franchise Tag after season. The crucial issue (at least with regard to Elliott) that you don't seem to be factoring in is that Dallas minus Elliott will be more likely to lose its games and hence its chances to win the elusive fourth Super Bowl that Jones craves. This is not about money for Jones. He will be 77 in a couple of months and is desperate to win another SB. 1
MAJBobby Posted July 23, 2019 Posted July 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: The crucial issue (at least with regard to Elliott) that you don't seem to be factoring in is that Dallas minus Elliott will be more likely to lose its games and hence its chances to win the elusive fourth Super Bowl that Jones craves. This is not about money for Jones. He will be 77 in a couple of months and is desperate to win another SB. I absolutely am factoring it it. Fact is their QB needs to be put on a new deal before a RB. So that should be Jones Priority because they are not sniffing another Super Bowl without a QB.
Mr. WEO Posted July 23, 2019 Posted July 23, 2019 57 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: 3rd Tag in 2019 would have been QB money. So yes he had leverage to get out of Pitt or to get paid. He used it. In the case of Bell, if he were to be tagged again by the Steelers in 2019, it would count as his third franchise tag; it would not revert to his second. Per the CBA, Pittsburgh in that case would be required to tender Bell non-exclusively (with first- and third-round comp picks attached) at the average of the top five highest-paid players at the league's highest-paid position. now both Zeke and Gordon do not have that leverage. They will get fined every absence. Then face their 1st Franchise Tag after season. Bell was facing the tag before the 2018 season, which he refused to sign. Since he was offered a huge contract and turned it down for more guaranteed money, and would only cost 14.5 million if he did sign, he had surrendered ALL leverage to the Steelers. So hypothesizing what it would have cost them for a 3rd tag this year when they let him walk after he refused the tag last year makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. But yes, Zeke and Gordon have even less leverage that Bell had, as they are under contract. 45 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: I absolutely am factoring it it. Fact is their QB needs to be put on a new deal before a RB. So that should be Jones Priority because they are not sniffing another Super Bowl without a QB. Aren't sniffing one with that QB either...
dave mcbride Posted July 23, 2019 Posted July 23, 2019 53 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Bell was facing the tag before the 2018 season, which he refused to sign. Since he was offered a huge contract and turned it down for more guaranteed money, and would only cost 14.5 million if he did sign, he had surrendered ALL leverage to the Steelers. So hypothesizing what it would have cost them for a 3rd tag this year when they let him walk after he refused the tag last year makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. But yes, Zeke and Gordon have even less leverage that Bell had, as they are under contract. Aren't sniffing one with that QB either... Why would you say that? They are 32-16 when he starts, and his career passer rating is 96.0 (95.7 in the postseason across three games) with 7.4 ypa and a 66 percent completion rate. He's also had 6 rushing TDs in all three seasons he's played in. He's young, but he has clearly produced at a fairly high level ever since he arrived in the league.
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