Happy Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 19 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: This is wrong. Like, "the sky is purple" wrong. There just isn't even an element of truth to it. Littman represented his clients. He did NOTHING he was not instructed to do. He did not have the type of discretion you are describing here. If it was so wrong without an element of truth, then why was Littman surprised and angry when the state dropped the $400 million relocation "bomb"? I do believe Littman was acting in the best interest for the Wilson estate, but let's not pretend he didn't have a lot to gain from it.
Steve Billieve Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 Just now, Happy Gilmore said: If it was so wrong without an element of truth, then why was Littman surprised and angry when the state dropped the $400 million relocation "bomb"? I do believe Littman was acting in the best interest for the Wilson estate, but let's not pretend he didn't have a lot to gain from it. I mean it is a negotiation. What do you expect a negotiator to do? Vigorously agree? 1
Happy Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 6 minutes ago, Steve Billieve said: I mean it is a negotiation. What do you expect a negotiator to do? Vigorously agree? I really don't care that Littman did not vigorously agree to the relocation fee. Shouldn't have cared either way, since the team would be sold to the highest bidder, which it was. 1
Steve Billieve Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 Just now, Happy Gilmore said: I really don't care that Littman did not vigorously agree to the relocation fee. Shouldn't have cared either way, since the team would be sold to the highest bidder, which it was. Just what do you think is being negotiated? The state wants the team to stay forever and ever. The team wants the state to help provide facilities. Why should a negotiator not care about an unusually large clawback that hadn't been previously discussed? and even if he doesn't care why should he let that on.
Happy Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 1 minute ago, Steve Billieve said: Just what do you think is being negotiated? The state wants the team to stay forever and ever. The team wants the state to help provide facilities. Why should a negotiator not care about an unusually large clawback that hadn't been previously discussed? I don't think Littman could do anything about it. If Littman cared about the Bills staying in Buffalo, he wouldn't have been so surprised, upset, or even minded this fee was attached to the deal.
zonabb Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Cynical said: Two things stand out to me: 1) "... when two things became clear to the Cuomo administration: The Bills had no interest in a new stadium, and the county had already determined that a new stadium in downtown would not work for a host of financial and logistical reasons. " I wonder if these reasons still exist today. 2) " Poloncarz said then-Bills President Russ Brandon told him that penalty ultimately kept many prospective owners – Poloncarz knew of about 10 – from placing bids on the Bills when Wilson died in March 2014. " Without that relocation fee, the Bills were good as gone upon Wilson's death. The downtown issues still and will remain. They are costly, time-consuming, and politically touchy. 1. Infrastructure. A new stadium would require massive upgrades to existing sewer and water systems. The systems in the downtown core simply can't handle that. The upgrades would be in the tens of millions if not hundreds, including addressing stormwater. The average person who hasn't spent a second in the development field tends to look only at the structure, missing out on the massive investment it often takes in upgrading existing or installing new public infrastructure. All of that exists on Abbott Rd. 2. Transportation. This might be the biggest hurdle. There's not a site downtown, whether it's the Old First Ward, Waterfront, or somewhere else that offers easy access by auto OR a mix of public transportation and auto. Old First Ward comes closest but existing surface road system can't carry the traffic for a game. 3. Land acquisition. This is a the politically touchy issue. Pegulas clearly have the financial ability to buy properties one at time in the Old First Ward or pretty much anywhere. However, the prices goes up as more property owners hold out for a sweetheart deal. The City could take properties by eminent domain on behalf of the team, but that's not a good look for a Mayor to take a property from a family to give it to a billionaire for fair market value. There are literally hundreds of small properties in the Old First Ward and surrounding areas owned by individuals that would require extensive legal work and costs to acquire. I have been told there are contracts to buy on some streets in the City but was not told which streets. Again, there's free land on Abbott St. My money would be on continuing to walk along with this stadium as long as possible, hoping the fortunes of the city and region improve as climate change becomes and issue and the water wars take place, which make this region a sustainable place. Then if we see both an improvement in the overall economy and some population growth, it'll be a conversation for 10 years from now. Barring that, a new, simple stadium across from the current one would be my educated and informed guess. 2 2 2
MacGyver Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 40 minutes ago, zonabb said: My money would be on continuing to walk along with this stadium as long as possible, hoping the fortunes of the city and region improve as climate change becomes and issue and the water wars take place, which make this region a sustainable place. OMG... WAT? 1 1
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Happy Gilmore said: If it was so wrong without an element of truth, then why was Littman surprised and angry when the state dropped the $400 million relocation "bomb"? I do believe Littman was acting in the best interest for the Wilson estate, but let's not pretend he didn't have a lot to gain from it. Did Littman have an equity interest in this deal? Or if the team sold? I am fairly certain the answer is no. That would mean his compensation did not depend on the outcome of these negotiations. The real truth: sometimes lawyers/representatives say things when advocating for their client, or as a result of the other parties conduct, that warrant that kind of reaction. Its the nature of representation.
Steve Billieve Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Happy Gilmore said: I don't think Littman could do anything about it. If Littman cared about the Bills staying in Buffalo, he wouldn't have been so surprised, upset, or even minded this fee was attached to the deal. The details of clawback aggreeements are essential to any negotiation in which they are attached. It was his job to mind, regardless of his feelings on where the franchise plays. If one party has an unusual or excessive demand/request its your job as a negotiator to get something for it.
Doc Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Happy Gilmore said: If it was so wrong without an element of truth, then why was Littman surprised and angry when the state dropped the $400 million relocation "bomb"? I do believe Littman was acting in the best interest for the Wilson estate, but let's not pretend he didn't have a lot to gain from it. Poloncarz could have been lying about Littman's reaction. He's a politician you know. And if Littman did indeed get angry, perhaps it was a "after all Ralph Wilson has done to remain in the area for decades?" kind of thing? 1
Steve Billieve Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 1 minute ago, Doc said: Poloncarz could have been lying about Littman's reaction. He's a politician you know. And if Littman did indeed get angry, perhaps it was a "after all Ralph Wilson has done to remain in the area for decades?" kind of thing? Or maybe it was because he hammered out a deal and then got sandbagged.
RochesterLifer Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 1 hour ago, zonabb said: The downtown issues still and will remain. They are costly, time-consuming, and politically touchy. 1. Infrastructure. A new stadium would require massive upgrades to existing sewer and water systems. The systems in the downtown core simply can't handle that. The upgrades would be in the tens of millions if not hundreds, including addressing stormwater. The average person who hasn't spent a second in the development field tends to look only at the structure, missing out on the massive investment it often takes in upgrading existing or installing new public infrastructure. All of that exists on Abbott Rd. 2. Transportation. This might be the biggest hurdle. There's not a site downtown, whether it's the Old First Ward, Waterfront, or somewhere else that offers easy access by auto OR a mix of public transportation and auto. Old First Ward comes closest but existing surface road system can't carry the traffic for a game. 3. Land acquisition. This is a the politically touchy issue. Pegulas clearly have the financial ability to buy properties one at time in the Old First Ward or pretty much anywhere. However, the prices goes up as more property owners hold out for a sweetheart deal. The City could take properties by eminent domain on behalf of the team, but that's not a good look for a Mayor to take a property from a family to give it to a billionaire for fair market value. There are literally hundreds of small properties in the Old First Ward and surrounding areas owned by individuals that would require extensive legal work and costs to acquire. I have been told there are contracts to buy on some streets in the City but was not told which streets. Again, there's free land on Abbott St. My money would be on continuing to walk along with this stadium as long as possible, hoping the fortunes of the city and region improve as climate change becomes and issue and the water wars take place, which make this region a sustainable place. Then if we see both an improvement in the overall economy and some population growth, it'll be a conversation for 10 years from now. Barring that, a new, simple stadium across from the current one would be my educated and informed guess. I feel smarter, having read this. Thank you!
ddaryl Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 Pretty shocking considering most everyone was told it was Ralph that made sure the Bills stayed.. That's ok now I don't have to acknowledge Ralph's legacy.. Never really cared for him as an owner, only respected him because he kept the team here.. but this latest revelation now allows me to feel the way I truly do regarding Ralph. Horrible owner.... Got lucky in the early 90's. 1
JohnC Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 1 hour ago, zonabb said: The downtown issues still and will remain. They are costly, time-consuming, and politically touchy. 1. Infrastructure. A new stadium would require massive upgrades to existing sewer and water systems. The systems in the downtown core simply can't handle that. The upgrades would be in the tens of millions if not hundreds, including addressing stormwater. The average person who hasn't spent a second in the development field tends to look only at the structure, missing out on the massive investment it often takes in upgrading existing or installing new public infrastructure. All of that exists on Abbott Rd. 2. Transportation. This might be the biggest hurdle. There's not a site downtown, whether it's the Old First Ward, Waterfront, or somewhere else that offers easy access by auto OR a mix of public transportation and auto. Old First Ward comes closest but existing surface road system can't carry the traffic for a game. 3. Land acquisition. This is a the politically touchy issue. Pegulas clearly have the financial ability to buy properties one at time in the Old First Ward or pretty much anywhere. However, the prices goes up as more property owners hold out for a sweetheart deal. The City could take properties by eminent domain on behalf of the team, but that's not a good look for a Mayor to take a property from a family to give it to a billionaire for fair market value. There are literally hundreds of small properties in the Old First Ward and surrounding areas owned by individuals that would require extensive legal work and costs to acquire. I have been told there are contracts to buy on some streets in the City but was not told which streets. Again, there's free land on Abbott St. My money would be on continuing to walk along with this stadium as long as possible, hoping the fortunes of the city and region improve as climate change becomes and issue and the water wars take place, which make this region a sustainable place. Then if we see both an improvement in the overall economy and some population growth, it'll be a conversation for 10 years from now. Barring that, a new, simple stadium across from the current one would be my educated and informed guess. Your analysis is clearly thought out and laid out in a way that a layman can understand. You did a terrific job is pointing out the monumental challenges associated with building a new stadium. As you noted in the real world you have to deal with real world issues/problems/complexities/costs that can't be ignored. Because there are so many complexities associated with building a downtown stadium or a stadium anywhere on land own by others it wouldn't be surprising that the simplest, cheapest and quickest approach is to build a new and less than exotic new stadium on the site where the current stadium is. The downtown and waterfront sites are steadily being developed and as you noted the infrastructure challenges for a new stadium in those locations make the hurdles even more daunting and costly. When all the plusses and minuses are added up the simplest approach from a building standpoint and the most cost effective approach is to build a new facility at the same location where the current stadium is located in Orchard Park. Staying within your means is not sexy and glamorous but when it comes to the owner's contribution and public funds it makes the most sense. 1
ddaryl Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, zonabb said: The downtown issues still and will remain. They are costly, time-consuming, and politically touchy. I'll play devils advocate here 1. Infrastructure. A new stadium would require massive upgrades to existing sewer and water systems. The systems in the downtown core simply can't handle that. The upgrades would be in the tens of millions if not hundreds, including addressing stormwater. The average person who hasn't spent a second in the development field tends to look only at the structure, missing out on the massive investment it often takes in upgrading existing or installing new public infrastructure. All of that exists on Abbott Rd. Buffalo is building up in the southern part of the city. Adding this infrastructure is going to happen with or without the stadium. The stadium would just be a catalyst to get it done earlier. That entire waterfront area south of the city all the way thru Woodlawn is going to get massive upgrades over the next decade. I don't see this being a deterrent.... In fact I still see it as a huge positive for the city. IMO 2. Transportation. This might be the biggest hurdle. There's not a site downtown, whether it's the Old First Ward, Waterfront, or somewhere else that offers easy access by auto OR a mix of public transportation and auto. Old First Ward comes closest but existing surface road system can't carry the traffic for a game. Take a look at MapQuest and all the railroad tracks that pour into this area already... I could see passenger trains coming in from the north south and west. Yes this is more investment but a Stadium would again serve a as catalyst for this huge wave of development that IS COMING to the southern part of the city IMO. Not ot mention givng Buffalo a huge boost in Public transportation. There is just so much railraods infrastructure that can be reclaimed and made very prosperous for the city. Quote 3. Land acquisition. This is a the politically touchy issue. Pegulas clearly have the financial ability to buy properties one at time in the Old First Ward or pretty much anywhere. However, the prices goes up as more property owners hold out for a sweetheart deal. The City could take properties by eminent domain on behalf of the team, but that's not a good look for a Mayor to take a property from a family to give it to a billionaire for fair market value. There are literally hundreds of small properties in the Old First Ward and surrounding areas owned by individuals that would require extensive legal work and costs to acquire. I have been told there are contracts to buy on some streets in the City but was not told which streets. Again, there's free land on Abbott St. This is the trickiest one to navigate. However for Future Buffalo I full y think it should happen. The SOuthern part of the city is going ot be the crown jewel area of Future Buffalo IMO My money would be on continuing to walk along with this stadium as long as possible, hoping the fortunes of the city and region improve as climate change becomes and issue and the water wars take place, which make this region a sustainable place. Then if we see both an improvement in the overall economy and some population growth, it'll be a conversation for 10 years from now. Barring that, a new, simple stadium across from the current one would be my educated and informed guess.You jumped the shark on this last paragraph. Water wars and climate change have no bearing on this decision. A new stadium will last 30 years. If the stadium is under water in 30 or water in encroaching on the city of Buffalo we got a lot more serious problems then watching football on Sundays. I don't think this thing drags out for 10 years.... 5 years at most IMO. COuld very well be in OP Edited July 15, 2019 by ddaryl 3
Cynical Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 1 hour ago, zonabb said: The downtown issues still and will remain. They are costly, time-consuming, and politically touchy. 1. Infrastructure. A new stadium would require massive upgrades to existing sewer and water systems. The systems in the downtown core simply can't handle that. The upgrades would be in the tens of millions if not hundreds, including addressing stormwater. The average person who hasn't spent a second in the development field tends to look only at the structure, missing out on the massive investment it often takes in upgrading existing or installing new public infrastructure. All of that exists on Abbott Rd. 2. Transportation. This might be the biggest hurdle. There's not a site downtown, whether it's the Old First Ward, Waterfront, or somewhere else that offers easy access by auto OR a mix of public transportation and auto. Old First Ward comes closest but existing surface road system can't carry the traffic for a game. 3. Land acquisition. This is a the politically touchy issue. Pegulas clearly have the financial ability to buy properties one at time in the Old First Ward or pretty much anywhere. However, the prices goes up as more property owners hold out for a sweetheart deal. The City could take properties by eminent domain on behalf of the team, but that's not a good look for a Mayor to take a property from a family to give it to a billionaire for fair market value. There are literally hundreds of small properties in the Old First Ward and surrounding areas owned by individuals that would require extensive legal work and costs to acquire. I have been told there are contracts to buy on some streets in the City but was not told which streets. Again, there's free land on Abbott St. My money would be on continuing to walk along with this stadium as long as possible, hoping the fortunes of the city and region improve as climate change becomes and issue and the water wars take place, which make this region a sustainable place. Then if we see both an improvement in the overall economy and some population growth, it'll be a conversation for 10 years from now. Barring that, a new, simple stadium across from the current one would be my educated and informed guess. I agree with all of this. You just do not drop a 60-65k seat stadium into the downtown area where nothing of that size presently exits now, and think some parking decks and widening a couple of roads will be all that's needed. If we assume the economy improves and there is population growth, so will the demand for real estate and housing. Land acquisition will become even more problematic.
BADOLBILZ Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 2 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: This is wrong. Like, "the sky is purple" wrong. There just isn't even an element of truth to it. Littman represented his clients. He did NOTHING he was not instructed to do. He did not have the type of discretion you are describing here. It's generally believed that Littman received a % of the team sale.......likely due to ownership stock given.......thus he had a personal, vested interest in maximizing the sale price. I don't doubt Ralph preferred the team be kept in Buffalo...........he wanted more than anything to be remembered.........hence allowing the stadium to be named after him while he was still living?............. and he'd be totally forgotten by fans in a new city.............my guess is that he was open to the $400K relocation fee by then because he and Littman had already extracted about that out of the player payroll during the drought to cover inheritance tax concerns..........which became moot when the sales price became double what it would have been about 5 years earlier.
WhoTom Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 4 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: This is wild. According to this, it was the STATE, and NOT Ralph Wilson, that required the $400 Billion non-relocation buy-out. Ralph got alot of credit for that term. Turns out he should not have. "Gaining a non-relocation agreement, which included a $400 million penalty "bomb" if the team were to move, was a sticking point. Instead of that agreement, the team wanted lease language in which the Bills promised to reimburse the state and county stadium for renovation costs if the team moved." I'd say it was a little of both, since the Bills' proposal would have included a $210M relocation penalty. 1
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, MJS said: I'm assuming Ralph wasn't much involved. He was incredibly old at the time. Russ Brandon probably didn't care, as long as he got paid. ...yes Ralph got public credit for the $400 mil relo penalty, BUT who launched the press?.......I seriously doubt it was his family or Foundation...it was media driven I believe........yes the Estate got paid, but he wrote his Will to read that his ENTIRE $1.2 billion fortune must be wholly donated to charity within 20 years after his death...still remains an honorable man IMO... Edited July 15, 2019 by OldTimeAFLGuy 3
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