Pine Barrens Mafia Posted July 10, 2019 Posted July 10, 2019 On 7/10/2019 at 1:17 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said: Thank you for clarifying. However, I don't think this thread is about whether a #1 WR is "the panacea for offensive ineptitude and the key to greatness". Perhaps that is sarcasm? I think the question is "is it important?" (for offensive success), and the answer remains "it depends on your QB". To a lesser degree it depends on your scheme. QB who throw lasers with pinpoint accuracy have less need for that #1 guy than do QB with "zip code accuracy" or fading arms. Now if you want to set up a strawman question no one else is trying to answer about #1 WR as team panaceas and keys to team greatness, Have At It. Turn out the lights and lock the door when you're done. Expand Well, glad we're all understanding each other now.
Rock-A-Bye Beasley Posted July 10, 2019 Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) On 7/10/2019 at 5:31 AM, MJS said: You need a few elite players in order to really contend for a super bowl, and one of them is probably your QB. The QB can't do it alone. There has to be another guy or two on offense that are also elite. And on defense you need at least one elite presence as well. Now what positions those guys play is not super important. You just need 2-3 elite guys on your team who make plays. If that's a #1 WR, great. If that's a TE (Gronk), great. If that's a HB, great. You just need some elite guys. You can fill a team with solid players and can compete, but eventually you need those elite guys to really be good. So I would say if you don't have an elite #1 WR, you need that somewhere else. Expand Completely agree. Why isn’t this article/thread about elite Defensive tackles or elite cornerbacks or having a top 5 left tackle? Ill tell you why, it’s because the genesis for this thread and many others like it this offseason is someone looking at a weakness on the Bills roster and trying to justify it. Yeah, it’s ok that the Bills don’t have a #1 WR but for a young QB like Allen I would like to see more talent surrounding him on offense at every position. Hopefully they will get there eventually, the Antonio Brown attempted trade gives me hope that they’re not actually satisfied. On the other hand they didn’t draft a WR and instead went with a 3rd/4th string running back. I see teams like the Chiefs, Rams, Texans and probably others, continue to draft/sign WR to help their young QB when they already have much better talent than Buffalo currently. Edited July 10, 2019 by Chemical
TigerJ Posted July 10, 2019 Posted July 10, 2019 I'd rather have three or four very good WRs than one legendary WR and scrubs.
Rock-A-Bye Beasley Posted July 10, 2019 Posted July 10, 2019 On 7/10/2019 at 12:12 PM, Doc said: No. Expand Then please tell me why we are having this discussion.
GunnerBill Posted July 10, 2019 Posted July 10, 2019 On 7/10/2019 at 1:02 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said: Even when they had a WR like Stevie Johnson with back-to-back >1000 yd seasons, they did not have that guy. Expand We hadthat one year (2016) where Sammy was that guy. But he is the only Bill in my time watching that I think falls into that category.... maybe one of the last years of Moulds too but I think I probably only saw him post his peak.
dave mcbride Posted July 10, 2019 Posted July 10, 2019 On 7/10/2019 at 2:12 PM, GunnerBill said: We hadthat one year (2016) where Sammy was that guy. But he is the only Bill in my time watching that I think falls into that category.... maybe one of the last years of Moulds too but I think I probably only saw him post his peak. Expand Moulds' 1998 season is the best season by WR in Bills history. He simply dominated the field. 1
Jauronimo Posted July 10, 2019 Posted July 10, 2019 On 7/10/2019 at 9:40 AM, Joe in Winslow said: Is it though? If these guys had the impact you're talking about, wouldn't their teams be better? Expand They are better with them. Do you think the Giants would have been better last year without OBJ or the Falcons better without Julio?
The Senator Posted July 10, 2019 Posted July 10, 2019 On 7/10/2019 at 12:07 AM, ScottLaw said: It's a match up league. You need guys who can get open against the tougher secondaries of the league. The elite WRs do that against ANY defense. ? Johnny Unitas? This isn't the 1950s AFL anymore bud. Expand Um, there was no AFL in the 1950s. .
dave mcbride Posted July 10, 2019 Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) On 7/10/2019 at 2:18 PM, Jauronimo said: They are better with them. Do you think the Giants would have been better last year without OBJ or the Falcons better without Julio? Expand You are of course completely correct. Also, have you heard of this guy? https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RiceJe00.htm Or this guy? https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/I/IrviMi00.htm Or this guy? https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HoltTo00.htm On 7/10/2019 at 11:52 AM, GunnerBill said: Yea. It is so simple and yet I confess it was only about a year ago when talking to me former NFL position coach friend / acquiantence that it really came home to me. I was talking about the makeup of the perfect receiving corps and he said that all the best personnel people he had been around did not care what "type" or receiver a guy was. They didn't talk about needing a "big guy" or needing a "slot guy" or needing a "speed guy" or needing a "YAC guy" they all talked about just getting guys who get open and catch the ball. The biggest example he gave was the Steelers. When they drafted Antonio Brown - even forgetting that he was a late round guy - he didn't meet the "profile" of a #1 receiver. Yet he became the best in the NFL. But he gets open and he caught the ball. Expand Brown is definitely a #1 in the sense that he demands coverage by your best cover guy and the fact that he's the qb's first option. Where he was drafted doesn't really matter. After all, TO was a third rounder but an utterly dominant player. Same goes for Steve Smith (4th round) in his prime. Edited July 10, 2019 by dave mcbride
row_33 Posted July 10, 2019 Posted July 10, 2019 i'll wait till the end of the year and see who the best teams were and tell you what they did and how that is important to winning
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted July 10, 2019 Posted July 10, 2019 On 7/10/2019 at 2:18 PM, Jauronimo said: They are better with them. Do you think the Giants would have been better last year without OBJ or the Falcons better without Julio? Expand Giants couldn't have been much worse, my man. Falcons, eh. Might have a case there.
JESSEFEFFER Posted July 10, 2019 Posted July 10, 2019 I dislike the NFL QB rating as a measure of QB play but as a measure of WR or DB play it means alot more to me. For instance, Josh's rating throwing to Robert Foster vs. Kelvin Benjamin. Same QB throwing the ball but such different outcomes. Their love of catch rate in the article is misplaced as it is only a small part of a much bigger picture.
Jauronimo Posted July 10, 2019 Posted July 10, 2019 On 7/10/2019 at 2:33 PM, Joe in Winslow said: Giants couldn't have been much worse, my man. Falcons, eh. Might have a case there. Expand The same logic could be used to diminish the impact of every position in football except for maybe QB. Even HoF QBs aren't going to the playoffs every year. You can say no position particularly matters in football outside of QB but I maintain we have a better chance of winning with good or even great LTs, DEs, WRs, CBs, RBs, LBs despite what the "logic" here might dictate. 1
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted July 10, 2019 Posted July 10, 2019 On 7/10/2019 at 2:37 PM, Jauronimo said: The same logic could be used to diminish the impact of every position in football except for maybe QB. Even HoF QBs aren't going to the playoffs every year. You can say no position particularly matters in football outside of QB but I maintain we have a better chance of winning with good or even great LTs, DEs, WRs, CBs, RBs, LBs despite what the "logic" here might dictate. Expand Let's approach it from this angle: Would you rather have an average-level talent team and an all-world QB? Or would you rather have an all-world level talent team and a middling QB. There ARE examples of such teams in the NFL today.
Jauronimo Posted July 10, 2019 Posted July 10, 2019 On 7/10/2019 at 2:41 PM, Joe in Winslow said: Let's approach it from this angle: Would you rather have an average-level talent team and an all-world QB? Or would you rather have an all-world level talent team and a middling QB. There ARE examples of such teams in the NFL today. Expand Lets not move the goal posts and change the question entirely.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted July 10, 2019 Posted July 10, 2019 On 7/10/2019 at 2:43 PM, Jauronimo said: Lets not move the goal posts and change the question entirely. Expand I thought as much. By the way, it was a response to your second sentence, FWIW.
Jauronimo Posted July 10, 2019 Posted July 10, 2019 On 7/10/2019 at 2:45 PM, Joe in Winslow said: I thought as much. By the way, it was a response to your second sentence, FWIW. Expand Its your opinion that #1 WR is underlighting or a fancy decal on a car and I think it improves performance. Its ok, we don't have to agree. You said something flippant and I don't feel like engaging you for 4 hours while you try to justify it since we both know you're not going to drop it or walk it back.
MJS Posted July 10, 2019 Posted July 10, 2019 On 7/10/2019 at 2:08 PM, Chemical said: Completely agree. Why isn’t this article/thread about elite Defensive tackles or elite cornerbacks or having a top 5 left tackle? Ill tell you why, it’s because the genesis for this thread and many others like it this offseason is someone looking at a weakness on the Bills roster and trying to justify it. Yeah, it’s ok that the Bills don’t have a #1 WR but for a young QB like Allen I would like to see more talent surrounding him on offense at every position. Hopefully they will get there eventually, the Antonio Brown attempted trade gives me hope that they’re not actually satisfied. On the other hand they didn’t draft a WR and instead went with a 3rd/4th string running back. I see teams like the Chiefs, Rams, Texans and probably others, continue to draft/sign WR to help their young QB when they already have much better talent than Buffalo currently. Expand Yes, I agree. Looking at the offense we don't have an elite player at any position, except for perhaps center if we are counting him elite. McCoy was, but probably isn't anymore. Same with Gore. Allen certainly isn't elite (yet). So yeah, I don't think the offense is going to be anything special, but it doesn't have to be. On defense, however, we have some prospects. Tre White, Micah Hyde, perhaps Matt Milano and/or Trumaine Edmunds eventually. Ed Oliver could be elite one day. That defense is going somewhere quickly. I still think we are a few pieces away on offense. And it might always be that way. Tough to have a really good offense AND a really good defense. Not enough money to go around.
Doc Posted July 10, 2019 Posted July 10, 2019 On 7/10/2019 at 2:11 PM, Chemical said: Then please tell me why we are having this discussion. Expand Because the Bills don't appear to have a #1 WR on their roster. The thread is asking whether it's necessary.
row_33 Posted July 10, 2019 Posted July 10, 2019 On 7/10/2019 at 3:09 PM, Doc said: Because the Bills don't appear to have a #1 WR on their roster. The thread is asking whether it's necessary. Expand The Pats effectively used one for short to medium yardage to win the SB.
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