MJS Posted July 6, 2019 Posted July 6, 2019 21 hours ago, row_33 said: Tyrod was.... what are you doing? throw it! throw it! run ! run! get down! WTF are you doing out there??? fond memories of me and the TV screen Sparked my PTSD. Thanks a lot! 1
Rocket94 Posted July 6, 2019 Author Posted July 6, 2019 4 minutes ago, Ronin said: Well, to be fair I'm critical of his play. He's exciting, but his passing leaves much to be desired, but we were talking about recongizability and that kinda thing, eh. We'll see. As with everyone else I'm hopeful, but unlike most others I'm simply not seeing it right now. For example, while that play that I referred to was off-the-charts exciting, if any one of those three other defenders after Barr had been a little closer, close enough to have leveled Allen in the air it could have sent him to the bench with a completely different outcome. We were up 17-0 at that point and Minny hadn't done anything at all up to that point, it was beyond clear that they had come in flat. He's gotta protect himself more than that. That's stuff's fine in college but it's going to get him killed in the NFL if he keeps it up. Either way, excitement doesn't always translate to winning or sound offensive performance, ... as last season bore out. I thought Allen did quite well considering what he was up against. He arrives from a mountain conference in Wyoming faced with the task of helping the Bills almost immediately. He literally ran for his life yet noticeably improved in an abbreviated rookie campaign.
Ronin Posted July 6, 2019 Posted July 6, 2019 2 minutes ago, Rocket94 said: I thought Allen did quite well considering what he was up against. He arrives from a mountain conference in Wyoming faced with the task of helping the Bills almost immediately. He literally ran for his life yet noticeably improved in an abbreviated rookie campaign. Indeed, but his passing was low-end, to be frank and w/o going into the details that I've laid out many times here, not much better than Rosen's and pretty much only second-to-last except for Rosen who was DFL. We'll see. As I see it, a lot of excuses were made for Allen that the "excuse-makers" now claim are corrected. While I don't agree that our OL is that much improved and same for our WRs, the vast majority of people, fans and media alike, seem to think that they were. So if so, the excuses have been removed and we'll have to see a notable improvement in Allen's passing game this season as a direct result. I'd have done more to help Allen as such. At some point however, if those issues linger, they'll have to be attributed to Allen himself. We'll see how it plays out, but if he ends up being a below-average passer again this season it won't be good. There wouldn't be any good way to dance around that if so. I will reiterate tho, that he was the worst QB in the entire draft, and that includes of all the undrafted QBs as well, not to mention all the QBs in that draft also from small schools as such, against power-5 competition in college. FWIW
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted July 6, 2019 Posted July 6, 2019 23 hours ago, row_33 said: He has a lot of potential and I look forward to a Bills season. We get this once every 25 yearzzzzzz. They should string together two decent offensive series outside of garbagetime before declaring super bowl parade routes ...took time, but I did find the "Fins' SB window"...... 1
HOUSE Posted July 6, 2019 Posted July 6, 2019 (edited) Never believe a cab driver.... Edited July 6, 2019 by HOUSE 1
jethro_tull Posted July 6, 2019 Posted July 6, 2019 Chicago fans are very informed about the rest of the NFL especially the fantasy players of which there are many. There are also few notable Chicago-Buffalo connections- namely Marv Levy (Chicago resident), Greg Gabriel (Buffalo native, Canisius College Alum, longtime Bears Scout, Chicago area sports radio personality and now personnel director of the Washington team of the XFL).
Rocket94 Posted July 6, 2019 Author Posted July 6, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, jethro_tull said: Chicago fans are very informed about the rest of the NFL especially the fantasy players of which there are many. There are also few notable Chicago-Buffalo connections- namely Marv Levy (Chicago resident), Greg Gabriel (Buffalo native, Canisius College Alum, longtime Bears Scout, Chicago area sports radio personality and now personnel director of the Washington team of the XFL). It is funny...I am not getting as much Bears talk as I expected. 11 minutes ago, HOUSE said: Never believe a cab driver.... No even a Lyft Driver? But that's Chris Berman! We know what happens after that!? Edited July 6, 2019 by Rocket94
Rocket94 Posted July 6, 2019 Author Posted July 6, 2019 40 minutes ago, Ronin said: Indeed, but his passing was low-end, to be frank and w/o going into the details that I've laid out many times here, not much better than Rosen's and pretty much only second-to-last except for Rosen who was DFL. We'll see. As I see it, a lot of excuses were made for Allen that the "excuse-makers" now claim are corrected. While I don't agree that our OL is that much improved and same for our WRs, the vast majority of people, fans and media alike, seem to think that they were. So if so, the excuses have been removed and we'll have to see a notable improvement in Allen's passing game this season as a direct result. I'd have done more to help Allen as such. At some point however, if those issues linger, they'll have to be attributed to Allen himself. We'll see how it plays out, but if he ends up being a below-average passer again this season it won't be good. There wouldn't be any good way to dance around that if so. I will reiterate tho, that he was the worst QB in the entire draft, and that includes of all the undrafted QBs as well, not to mention all the QBs in that draft also from small schools as such, against power-5 competition in college. FWIW You are entitled to your opinion and you stand behind it. I have a tendency to look for other qualities...primarily a players strengths.
Orlando Buffalo Posted July 6, 2019 Posted July 6, 2019 22 hours ago, row_33 said: Tyrod was.... what are you doing? throw it! throw it! run ! run! get down! WTF are you doing out there??? fond memories of me and the TV screen it is good to know that i was not the only one.
Gugny Posted July 6, 2019 Posted July 6, 2019 1 hour ago, Ronin said: Well, to be fair I'm critical of his play. He's exciting, but his passing leaves much to be desired, but we were talking about recongizability and that kinda thing, eh. We'll see. As with everyone else I'm hopeful, but unlike most others I'm simply not seeing it right now. For example, while that play that I referred to was off-the-charts exciting, if any one of those three other defenders after Barr had been a little closer, close enough to have leveled Allen in the air it could have sent him to the bench with a completely different outcome. We were up 17-0 at that point and Minny hadn't done anything at all up to that point, it was beyond clear that they had come in flat. He's gotta protect himself more than that. That's stuff's fine in college but it's going to get him killed in the NFL if he keeps it up. Either way, excitement doesn't always translate to winning or sound offensive performance, ... as last season bore out. I saw it as a rookie mistake which he owned up to immediately after the game. Certainly not any kind of red flag. Kid's a competitor. He just needs to be smarter for self-preservation purposes. 1 1
Rocket94 Posted July 6, 2019 Author Posted July 6, 2019 2 minutes ago, Gugny said: I saw it as a rookie mistake which he owned up to immediately after the game. Certainly not any kind of red flag. Kid's a competitor. He just needs to be smarter for self-preservation purposes. I want to believe (we all do) that he learned a lot last year. Kind of like...I survived in one piece. Now let's play football and be a good QB.
Gugny Posted July 6, 2019 Posted July 6, 2019 Just now, Rocket94 said: I want to believe (we all do) that he learned a lot last year. Kind of like...I survived in one piece. Now let's play football and be a good QB. I certainly hope so. I think his forward progress throughout the season was pretty clear to those of us who don't secretly want him to fail so was can say, "told ya!" Definitely more than a few of those kinds of people milling about.
Rocket94 Posted July 6, 2019 Author Posted July 6, 2019 11 minutes ago, Gugny said: I certainly hope so. I think his forward progress throughout the season was pretty clear to those of us who don't secretly want him to fail so was can say, "told ya!" Definitely more than a few of those kinds of people milling about. I realize that and it is unfortunate about some people...not just football. I like the kid and I am not afraid to be wrong about him.
Gugny Posted July 6, 2019 Posted July 6, 2019 Just now, Rocket94 said: I realize that and it is unfortunate about some people...not just football. I like the kid and I am not afraid to be wrong about him. Same here, dude. I am all in! 1
Rocket94 Posted July 6, 2019 Author Posted July 6, 2019 8 minutes ago, Gugny said: Same here, dude. I am all in! Right on! Let's get on with it! 1
Ronin Posted July 6, 2019 Posted July 6, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rocket94 said: You are entitled to your opinion and you stand behind it. I have a tendency to look for other qualities...primarily a players strengths. He has strengths for sure. Can heave the ball further than any QB in the NFL in every likelihood. Among others, athleticism being one which could very well also be "best of" at the present time. But the exercise is weighing the strengths against the weaknesses and attempting to arrive at a conclusion, at least until one is fully demonstrated. Consider, of the three QBs which do you consider had more "strengths" coming into the NFL or even after their first seasons playing, Young, Leinart, or Allen? Here are their first year stats for all three, and break down their game-logs as you see fit. I would argue that Allen has the fewest strengths among the three, yet, how did their careers in the NFL turn out? Passing Rushing Player From To G QBrec Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Rate Int Sk Yds Y/A AY/A NY/A ANY/A Att Yds TD Josh Allen 2018 2018 12 5-6 169 320 52.8 2074 10 67.9 12 28 213 6.5 5.42 5.35 4.37 89 631 8 Matt Leinart 2006 2006 12 4-7 214 377 56.8 2547 11 74.0 12 21 158 6.8 5.91 6.00 5.20 22 49 2 Vince Young 2006 2006 15 8-5 184 357 51.5 2199 12 66.7 13 25 129 6.2 5.19 5.42 4.52 83 552 7 Here's the rushing part of it since that copy was too large; Rushing Player Att Yds TD Josh Allen 89 631 8 Matt Leinart 22 49 2 Vince Young 83 552 7 Not saying Allen will necessarily repeat, but it takes more than a few isolated superficial strengths to create a franchise QB. When we consider that several others, really all others if Allen's better than them all in arm-strength and athleticism for example, that are presently great, don't have Allen's strengths. Some include Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Mahomes, Luck. So clearly Allen's "strengths," at least not to the extent that he has them, are core criteria for becoming a franchise QB. That's indisputable given the reality. Edited July 6, 2019 by Ronin 1
Rocket94 Posted July 6, 2019 Author Posted July 6, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Ronin said: He has strengths for sure. Can heave the ball further than any QB in the NFL in every likelihood. Among others, athleticism being one which could very well also be "best of" at the present time. But the exercise is weighing the strengths against the weaknesses and attempting to arrive at a conclusion, at least until one is fully demonstrated. Consider, of the three QBs which do you consider had more "strengths" coming into the NFL or even after their first seasons playing, Young, Leinart, or Allen? Here are their first year stats for all three, and break down their game-logs as you see fit. I would argue that Allen has the fewest strengths among the three, yet, how did their careers in the NFL turn out? Not saying Allen will necessarily repeat, but it takes more than a few isolated superficial strengths to create a franchise QB. When we consider that several others, really all others if Allen's better than them all in arm-strength and athleticism for example, that are presently great, don't have Allen's strengths. Some include Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Mahomes, Luck. So clearly Allen's "strengths," at least not to the extent that he has them, are core criteria for becoming a franchise QB. That's indisputable given the reality. Ok...he has weaknesses in his game. We will work with him religiously, we will run him through film, we will drill him until we are blue in the face, but based on his strengths, how can we utilize him until he fully gets it! Allen's strengths out weigh his weaknesses in my opinion. Edited July 6, 2019 by Rocket94
Ronin Posted July 6, 2019 Posted July 6, 2019 7 minutes ago, Rocket94 said: Ok...he has weaknesses in his game. We will work with him religiously, we will run him through film, we will drill him until we are blue in the face, but based on his strengths, how can we utilize him until he fully gets it! Allen's strengths out weigh his weaknesses in my opinion. OK, we'll have to agree to disagree. I would strongly suggest that the strengths of Leinart and Young were notably greater than Allen's and that both brought much more into the NFL than Allen did by a country mile. Both played in the NC game and performed to ultimate levels therein. Allen couldn't even avoid playing the few power-5 teams that he did to the worst levels of any QB in his entire draft, drafted or not. I think that's significant. They didn't bring Allen's issues, which still aren't corrected btw, into the NFL, particularly not Leinart whom at the time many said he was one of the most "nfl ready" QBs in history. Of course many said the same thing about Peterman in his draft class a couple of years ago once again suggesting that talk is cheap. Arm-strength and athleticism, which appear to be the founding elements of McBeane's belief in Allen, are hardly what constitute franchise QBs. They're more kid-in-a-candy-shop type of characteristics that appeal to novice talent evaluators. Whether McBeane in their smarter-by-half approach, which seems to be their entire personnel theme given their drafting of the weak and wounded since they've been here as their core "improvements" to the team, pays off we'll find out soon. I'll give 'em credit, it was a very lofty goal. Whether it was wise we should find out this season coming up shortly and know in full in approximately five months time or less. The one thing that we'll have to agree on is that where Allen is by the end of the season will largely determine his future trajectory as an NFL QB. No blaming the OL or WRs again, particularly not given the lauding talk about the improvements therein.
Rocket94 Posted July 6, 2019 Author Posted July 6, 2019 45 minutes ago, Ronin said: OK, we'll have to agree to disagree. I would strongly suggest that the strengths of Leinart and Young were notably greater than Allen's and that both brought much more into the NFL than Allen did by a country mile. Both played in the NC game and performed to ultimate levels therein. Allen couldn't even avoid playing the few power-5 teams that he did to the worst levels of any QB in his entire draft, drafted or not. I think that's significant. They didn't bring Allen's issues, which still aren't corrected btw, into the NFL, particularly not Leinart whom at the time many said he was one of the most "nfl ready" QBs in history. Of course many said the same thing about Peterman in his draft class a couple of years ago once again suggesting that talk is cheap. Arm-strength and athleticism, which appear to be the founding elements of McBeane's belief in Allen, are hardly what constitute franchise QBs. They're more kid-in-a-candy-shop type of characteristics that appeal to novice talent evaluators. Whether McBeane in their smarter-by-half approach, which seems to be their entire personnel theme given their drafting of the weak and wounded since they've been here as their core "improvements" to the team, pays off we'll find out soon. I'll give 'em credit, it was a very lofty goal. Whether it was wise we should find out this season coming up shortly and know in full in approximately five months time or less. The one thing that we'll have to agree on is that where Allen is by the end of the season will largely determine his future trajectory as an NFL QB. No blaming the OL or WRs again, particularly not given the lauding talk about the improvements therein. Yes...I agree. The Bills are trying to be accommodating as possible for Allen to succeed through the draft and FA. The modern QB doesn't sit around with a clipboard for three years. In the next year or two we should have our answer.
Ronin Posted July 6, 2019 Posted July 6, 2019 4 minutes ago, Rocket94 said: Yes...I agree. The Bills are trying to be accommodating as possible for Allen to succeed through the draft and FA. The modern QB doesn't sit around with a clipboard for three years. In the next year or two we should have our answer. I think that they could have done more, better than they did. I think it's going to cost them. I don't think that they had the luxury of being able to go defense in round 1 this year regardless of whom they found available. I really think that they should have grabbed Dillard.
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