LEAKED: Comprehensive breakdown of 3-4 Defense by Mike Pettine

[DrDawkinstein]

Just saw this on Reddit. Thought it was interesting since it was done by former Bills DC Mike Pettine who had great success here. Looks like this was for a presentation he did at a clinic.

 

50 page PPT deck (in PDF)

 

https://second-effort.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/3-4-defense.pdf

 

I figured there are other X's and O's nerds here that might be interested in checking it out.

[GunnerBill]

Pet was a good coach here precisely because he didn't force his 3-4 on what was essentially 4-3 personnel. He ran a hybrid that usually had 4 down linemen with their hand in the dirt. Then a couple of years later his mentor arrived and forced his 3-4 on what was very firmly 4-3 personnel and ruined the defense.

 

Good job Rex.

[Royale with Cheese]

26 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Pet was a good coach here precisely because he didn't force his 3-4 on what was essentially 4-3 personnel. He ran a hybrid that usually had 4 down linemen with their hand in the dirt. Then a couple of years later his mentor arrived and forced his 3-4 on what was very firmly 4-3 personnel and ruined the defense.

 

Good job Rex.

 

Want to pick your brain a bit.  

 

What's the biggest difference between 4 down line man with their hand in the dirt and 4 down line man if you have the edge guy standing up?  

[Mark80]

43 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Pet was a good coach here precisely because he didn't force his 3-4 on what was essentially 4-3 personnel. He ran a hybrid that usually had 4 down linemen with their hand in the dirt. Then a couple of years later his mentor arrived and forced his 3-4 on what was very firmly 4-3 personnel and ruined the defense.

 

Good job Rex.

A good manager/coach always adjusts to the strengths of their personnel.  Bad ones force their personnel into their own systems regardless of fit (I'm looking at you Rex).

[DrDawkinstein]

20 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Want to pick your brain a bit.  

 

What's the biggest difference between 4 down line man with their hand in the dirt and 4 down line man if you have the edge guy standing up?  

 

The main difference is the standing edge guy gets listed as an OLB instead of a DE. That's about it. ?

 

But seriously, funny enough, here is the presentation on the 4-3 Defense...

 

https://second-effort.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/4-3-defense.pdf

[Royale with Cheese]

36 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

The main difference is the standing edge guy gets listed as an OLB instead of a DE. That's about it. ?

 

But seriously, funny enough, here is the presentation on the 4-3 Defense...

 

https://second-effort.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/4-3-defense.pdf

 

I've always wondered what changes the responsibility of them if they are both going after the QB?

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I've always wondered what changes the responsibility of them if they are both going after the QB?

 

A standing up linebacker has to win with speed or with disguise (ie. disguises a drop then comes on a delayed rush). The hand in the dirt DE is trying to win with leverage and explosion. Their objective "get to the QB" might be the same, but the techniques you are going to use to achieve that are different. When Pet was here he used to use Mario and Jerry in both roles depending on the alignment.

[MJS]

Mike Pettine's defense here was decent. He got turnovers and sacks and such, but it was definitely a boom or bust defense. We got routinely gouged in the run game.

 

My favorite was Jim Schwartz with his Wide 9 formations. He really got the best out of our players.

[Gugny]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Pet was a good coach here precisely because he didn't force his 3-4 on what was essentially 4-3 personnel. He ran a hybrid that usually had 4 down linemen with their hand in the dirt. Then a couple of years later his mentor arrived and forced his 3-4 on what was very firmly 4-3 personnel and ruined the defense.

 

Good job Rex.

 

Actually, good job Kim and Terry.

[Royale with Cheese]

5 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Actually, good job Kim and Terry.

Leave the Korean out of this.

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Leave the Korean out of this.

 

I wish they would have back then.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Pet was a good coach here precisely because he didn't force his 3-4 on what was essentially 4-3 personnel. He ran a hybrid that usually had 4 down linemen with their hand in the dirt. Then a couple of years later his mentor arrived and forced his 3-4 on what was very firmly 4-3 personnel and ruined the defense.

 

Good job Rex.

 

Not to interrupt the Pettine lovefest, but while our D was slightly improved, vs 2012 Wannstache under 2013 Pettine, we absolutely sucked against the run.  One reason we had a relatively good pass D was that teams ran the ball down our throats.  28th against the run.  11th against the run next year under Schwartz, #4 overall, mostly same personnel.

 

That's kind of by design, Pettine relied on a blitz-heavy system which left gaps the opponent's run game could exploit.

 

It's pretty clear the real Doctor of Defense was Schwartz.

[dave mcbride]

10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Not to interrupt the Pettine lovefest, but while our D was slightly improved, vs 2012 Wannstache under 2013 Pettine, we absolutely sucked against the run.  One reason we had a relatively good pass D was that teams ran the ball down our throats.  28th against the run.  11th against the run next year under Schwartz, #4 overall, mostly same personnel.

 

That's kind of by design, Pettine relied on a blitz-heavy system which left gaps the opponent's run game could exploit.

 

It's pretty clear the real Doctor of Defense was Schwartz.

FO begs to differ with you over 2012 and 2013 (and yeah, I know I sound like a broken record): https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef2013

 

The 2013 defense was 6th in turnovers forced, 2nd in INTs, 3rd in net yards per passing attempt, 5th in plays per drive, and 2nd in yards per drive. It was a good D. Run defense is obviously important, but pass defense in the modern NFL is simply more important. 

Edited July 3, 2019 by dave mcbride

[GunnerBill]

23 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Not to interrupt the Pettine lovefest, but while our D was slightly improved, vs 2012 Wannstache under 2013 Pettine, we absolutely sucked against the run.  One reason we had a relatively good pass D was that teams ran the ball down our throats.  28th against the run.  11th against the run next year under Schwartz, #4 overall, mostly same personnel.

 

That's kind of by design, Pettine relied on a blitz-heavy system which left gaps the opponent's run game could exploit.

 

It's pretty clear the real Doctor of Defense was Schwartz.

 

Oh it was more than slightly improved. The 2012 defense was 22nd in yards and 26th in points. The 2013 defense was 10th in yards and 20th in points. People forget how bad that Wannastache defense it was. It was absolutely woeful. Pettine came in and with broadly the same players - the only real additions were Hughes, Alonso and Jim Leonhard - turned it in to a top 10 defense.

 

Now there is no bigger Jim Schwartz fan than me and he is a top quality DC. I loved the hire from the start. But Pettine did some of the heavy lifting in that turnaround that Schwartz benefitted from. And he did it by ditching his ego at the door and not forcing a scheme onto talent that wasn't a fit. That was the point that I was making..... not that Pettine was the best DC ever but that he did a good job and it is interesting to contrast his approach with the approach his own "big brother" / mentor took 2 years later.

Edited July 3, 2019 by GunnerBill

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

FO begs to differ with you over 2012 and 2013 (and yeah, I know I sound like a broken record): https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef2013

 

The 2013 defense was 6th in turnovers forced, 2nd in INTs, 3rd in net yards per passing attempt, 5th in plays per drive, and 2nd in yards per drive. It was a good D. Run defense is obviously important, but pass defense in the modern NFL is simply more important. 

 

Well, I dunno how Football Outsiders decides what is a good D, but 2013 Pettine D was 20th in points allowed vs 2014, 4th.  

 

That means under Pettine, 19/32 teams were better.  60% of NFL teams were better.   That's not even average.  I can't call that good.

You?  I mean, I guess you can, you just did, but it's very puzzling as to why.

 

I mean, "yea!" you force all those turnovers and get all those INTs, but at the end of the day, if you're allowing the opponent to score points, does it matter?

I call "shenanigans" on the claim "Pass D is simply more important".  I think this is a case of Stats don't lie, but you need to look and think carefully about what they mean, really.  One reason pass D was great was because teams knew they could run the ball down our throat so they did, bypassing the stout pass D.  

 

We had 414 rush attempts against us in 2014 vs 471 in 2013.  Football Outsiders explains that by....?????  (*crickets*)

 

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Oh it was more than slightly improved. The 2012 defense was 22nd in yards and 26th in points. The 2013 defense was 10th in yards and 20th in points. People forget how bad that Wannastache defense it was. It was absolutely woeful. Pettine came in and with broadly the same players - the only real additions were Hughes, Alonso and Jim Leonhard - turned it in to a top 10 defense.

 

How can it be a top-10 defense if it's 20th in points?  At the end of the day, points are what win or lose football games.

 

I will give you improvement from 26th to 20th.  It's about a 20% improvement?  I call that "slightly improved"

 

If that makes you all happy "more than slightly improved", good to be you!  I'm happy for you!

 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, I dunno how Football Outsiders decides what is a good D, but 2013 Pettine D was 20th in points allowed vs 2014, 4th.  

 

That means under Pettine, 19/32 teams were better.  60% of NFL teams were better.   That's not even average.  I can't call that good.

You?  I mean, I guess you can, you just did, but it's very puzzling as to why.

 

I mean, "yea!" you force all those turnovers and get all those INTs, but at the end of the day, if you're allowing the opponent to score points, does it matter?

I call "shenanigans" on the claim "Pass D is simply more important".  I think this is a case of Stats don't lie, but you need to look and think carefully about what they mean, really.  One reason pass D was great was because teams knew they could run the ball down our throat so they did, bypassing the stout pass D.  

 

We had 414 rush attempts against us in 2014 vs 471 in 2013.  Football Outsiders explains that by....?????  (*crickets*)

 

 

How can it be a top-10 defense if it's 20th in points?  At the end of the day, points are what win or lose football games.

 

I will give you improvement from 26th to 20th.  It's about a 20% improvement?  I call that "slightly improved"

 

If that makes you all happy "more than slightly improved", good to be you!  I'm happy for you!

 

 

Because points doesn't just rely on the defense. That was the running the no huddle with EJ and Thad Lewis. The defense got put in some terrible positions. 

 

Yes, they got gashed at times against the run. Yes, the 2014 defense took another big step. But to pretend the 2013 defense wasn't a big step up over the 2012 defense because you are looking a points as a blunt metric when almost all the other analytical metrics show a significant leap is foolish. 

 

Nobody is arguing the 2014 defense wasn't better. But to try and pretend Pettine didn't do a good job here.... it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. 

 

And as the top 10 point... the NFL categorises defenses and offenses by yards first and foremost. They were 10th in yards against. Therefore officially a top 10 defense. Now that is equally a blunt metric on its own... but so many of the other analytics seem to corroborate it. 

[LSHMEAB]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

I mean, "yea!" you force all those turnovers and get all those INTs, but at the end of the day, if you're allowing the opponent to score points, does it matter?

 

 

I would argue yes. When you're getting all those turnovers, you're giving your offense a chance to score points, often on a short field. The objective is to outscore the opponent. 20th is not good and Pettine certainly has his flaws, but I like his approach. 

 

Comparing him to Schwartz is a bit unfair. Jim Schwartz is the best DC in the NFL IMO.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

54 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Because points doesn't just rely on the defense. That was the running the no huddle with EJ and Thad Lewis. The defense got put in some terrible positions. 

 

Yes, they got gashed at times against the run. Yes, the 2014 defense took another big step. But to pretend the 2013 defense wasn't a big step up over the 2012 defense because you are looking a points as a blunt metric when almost all the other analytical metrics show a significant leap is foolish. 

 

Nobody is arguing the 2014 defense wasn't better. But to try and pretend Pettine didn't do a good job here.... it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. 

 

And as the top 10 point... the NFL categorises defenses and offenses by yards first and foremost. They were 10th in yards against. Therefore officially a top 10 defense. Now that is equally a blunt metric on its own... but so many of the other analytics seem to corroborate it. 

 

I dunno about NFL characterizing defenses and offenses "first and foremost" by yards.  The sites I'm familiar with list PPG first, YPG about 7 slots over. 

 

I think you may have it mixed....as far as I recall, we didn't much "run the no huddle" with EJM, Jeff Tuel, and Thad Lewis in 2013 - perhaps thinking of 2009?  So many poor seasons, so many poor ideas...they blur in my mind at times.

 

I'm not "pretending", I just see it differently than you.  There's no question the D was more exciting to watch, with pressure on the QB and INTs and all that...but when it comes down to the bottom line, it's all about whether or not the other team scores on ya.  My eyeball test says Pettine ran a gambling, blitz-heavy D.  As the saying goes, live by the blitz, die by the blitz.  We were porous against the run, sometimes at the worst times.    I think Wannstache's D was so boring and his play calling so predictable that Pettine's D looked amazing in contrast. 

 

There's also no question that it's not just the case of a totally impotent O putting the D in bad situations all the time....I think memory may be shading your viewpoint here.  We did have 2 games with 3 TO and 1 game with 5 TO.  But we also had 4 losses that were 7 points or less and 1 that was 10 points -- that's half our losses.  In fact, one could argue that offense was more competent than last year's offense...if you like yards as a metric, we had 10 or 11 games with >300 yds offense in 2013, only 8 games with >300 yds offense this past season.
 

I'm not saying Pettine did a bad job, I don't think it's as impressive as our memories (or the contrast to Wannstache) make it out to be.  I'm not going to keep debating whether it's "slight" or "significant" improvement though....the bottom line was, we went home with a 6-10 record, same as last year.

[NoSaint]

38 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I dunno about NFL characterizing defenses and offenses "first and foremost" by yards.  The sites I'm familiar with list PPG first, YPG about 7 slots over. 

 

I think you may have it mixed....as far as I recall, we didn't much "run the no huddle" with EJM, Jeff Tuel, and Thad Lewis in 2013 - perhaps thinking of 2009?  So many poor seasons, so many poor ideas...they blur in my mind at times.

 

I'm not "pretending", I just see it differently than you.  There's no question the D was more exciting to watch, with pressure on the QB and INTs and all that...but when it comes down to the bottom line, it's all about whether or not the other team scores on ya.  My eyeball test says Pettine ran a gambling, blitz-heavy D.  As the saying goes, live by the blitz, die by the blitz.  We were porous against the run, sometimes at the worst times.    I think Wannstache's D was so boring and his play calling so predictable that Pettine's D looked amazing in contrast. 

 

There's also no question that it's not just the case of a totally impotent O putting the D in bad situations all the time....I think memory may be shading your viewpoint here.  We did have 2 games with 3 TO and 1 game with 5 TO.  But we also had 4 losses that were 7 points or less and 1 that was 10 points -- that's half our losses.  In fact, one could argue that offense was more competent than last year's offense...if you like yards as a metric, we had 10 or 11 games with >300 yds offense in 2013, only 8 games with >300 yds offense this past season.
 

I'm not saying Pettine did a bad job, I don't think it's as impressive as our memories (or the contrast to Wannstache) make it out to be.  I'm not going to keep debating whether it's "slight" or "significant" improvement though....the bottom line was, we went home with a 6-10 record, same as last year.

 

Yards is typically what you see in rankings. 

 

No no single metric is great. A team can give up a ton of yards in a bend but don’t break and be effective.

 

likewise an awful offense can leave a team in position to give up a ton of points even in a stingy defense 

 

in today’s nfl- a team that allows few passing yards and creates turnovers is phenomenal if you have any semblance of an offense.

 

schwartz came in and the personal better fit his scheme and his scheme better fit our roster but I think it’s a woeful mistake to categorize pettine as closer to wannstedt. That defense was actually solid.

[Buffalo716]

11 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I've always wondered what changes the responsibility of them if they are both going after the QB?

OLBs who don't play with there hand in the dirt have coverage responsibilities occasionally in the flat and elsewhere

 

A DE with his hand in the dirt doesn't have coverage responsibilities unless it's an overload blitz. He plays the 9, 7 or occasional 5 technique