Pro football talk hates Buffalo - CBA and stadium funding

[BillnutinHouston]

24 minutes ago, JoeF said:

Just curious, but a related question, how much of a PSL fee would the season ticket holders on the board be willing to pay?  How much of a PSL fee will the WNY market support? 

 

 

Can't answer that without further info.  I'd pay $5k a seat for 2 seats, IF the seats were between the 30s, in a location comparable to the current lower level, and no more than $1500 a year each.  I think this is basically what I said in response to their survey. 

 

For me it's about location, location, location.

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2019 by BillnutinHouston

[dave mcbride]

4 hours ago, wagon127 said:

Are they suggesting that the NFL would force the Pegula's to move, if a substantial investment is not made in improving the Bills Stadium, (Renovate or Rebuild)? I feel its just an article, to scare fans and to get the tax payers to open their pockets.

No, it's not suggesting that at all.It's a hypothetical scenario in which the NFLPA decides it wants a say in this issue because the money involved is pretty huge and - if this were to happen - would not be available to them even though it's technically league revenue. Florio does not have any animus toward Buffalo, but since Buffalo's stadium situation has been in the news lately AND since they have one of the league's oldest stadiums (Arrowhead is a year older) not counting Alamada Colosseum and the LA Colosseum (both Soldier Field and Lambeau were basically completely rebuilt), the Bills are an obvious hypothetical example. Plus the team has been bad for a long time and stadium-based revenue generation is meager compared to the rest of the league. People are aware that the Bills rank dead last in terms of franchise value, right? https://www.forbes.com/nfl-valuations/list/#tab:overall 

[KollegeStudnet]

The article is written by Florio. His job is to give a side, then poop on it and call it “logic”.

[JoeF]

1 minute ago, BillnutinHouston said:

 

Can't answer that without further info.  I'd pay $5k a seat for 2 seats, IF the seats were between the 30s, in a location comparable to the current lower level, and no more than $1500 a year each.  I think this is basically what I said in response to their survey. 

 

 

 

Thanks BNIH....I am about where you are...its also location dependent.  I am outside the 30's in the lower bowl -- would probably be okay with $5K per seat maybe even a little more.  I think we will find out what "Season Ticket Holder Investment" is required to make this a go in the next few months when we have a plan from the Pegulas and their consultants.

[LSHMEAB]

6 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

No, it's not suggesting that at all.It's a hypothetical scenario in which the NFLPA decides it wants a say in this issue because the money involved is pretty huge and - if this were to happen - would not be available to them even though it's technically league revenue. Florio does not have any animus toward Buffalo, but since Buffalo's stadium situation has been in the news lately AND since they have one of the league's oldest stadiums (Arrowhead is a year older) not counting Alamada Colosseum and the LA Colosseum (both Soldier Field and Lambeau were basically completely rebuilt), the Bills are an obvious hypothetical example. Plus the team has been bad for a long time and stadium-based revenue generation is meager compared to the rest of the league. People are aware that the Bills rank dead last in terms of franchise value, right? https://www.forbes.com/nfl-valuations/list/#tab:overall 

Good post. Depressing, but accurate. The suggestion is not that the NFLPA could mandate a team relocation. The "proposal" does lead one to the idea that the decision the players make could force the owner's hand for financial viability.

 

Let's hope it's all junk that never comes to pass.

[17years&waiting]

5 hours ago, ddaryl said:

 

 

Money talks, and low revenue walks... Not many people vote to decrease their wallet size. In the end the NFLPA and the NFL would be in agreement because the goal is to increase revenues, something the recent CBA made sure the players were a part of. I don't think any players are truly loyal to any city.. In the end their love for any one city would be trumped by there desire for larger revenues and bigger paychecks. This is the world we created.  

  

I don't worry about this because I think Buffalo will bounce back on the revenue scale given the present upgrading of the city / surrounding areas and the fact we are coming out of a very long losing tradition. Winning will increase revenues a solid chuck.. While a new modest stadium will catapult us upward towards the half way mark. We are never going to compete with the top 10 biggest teams, but neither will most other franchises

 

Unfortunately, I don't see much evidence of this.  The metro has lost approximately 5,000 people over the course of this decade (if you look at census estimates for similar sized cities, they have grown substantially).  Buffalo has very little corporations to buy luxury suites and clubs seats.  And the same lack of corporations means that there aren't huge amounts of high-paying jobs.  

 

Turning decrepit factories into lofts does not equal a true upgrading, and it doesn't sustain an NFL team in the long run.  Buffalo doesn't have the ability to generate huge amounts of new revenue compared to other cities that have NFL teams.  

 

Like many of us who have left Upstate New York, typically for areas with real job, wage, and population growth, you very quickly realize the "upgrading" in Rochester and Buffalo is really just self-serving politicans who are glorifying lipstick on a pig to save their jobs.

 

I want the Buffalo Bills to be in Buffalo.  For many of us, including me, it helps to tie us back to our Upstate NY roots.  But to bury our heads in the sand and say the Bills don't have a revenue problem, that isn't easily solved, is not true.  I hope I'm wrong.

Edited July 3, 2019 by 17years&waiting

[TigerJ]

Maybe Mike Florio should ask some Buffalo players what they think about playing in Buffalo.

[Ronin]

7 hours ago, Mark80 said:

I think you are missing the point here.  The point is that their money is already going to be taken in that the pool of revenue in which the players are allocated a certain percentage, will be lower because money will be taken from it and placed into stadium projects.  He is saying since they are essentially paying for some it because of this this now reduced pool of revenue, they should have some say in how its spent.  Simple example with incorrect numbers.  Total Revenue $1B, players get 50% share.  Players get $500M.  In this scenario it may be this.  Total Revenue $1B, Amount dedicated to stadiums $100M.  New Revenue left $900M, players still get 50% share.  Players only get $450M.  So, they actually "paid" for $50M of the stadium improvements.

 

Indeed, but what Florio adds is that if the players are contributing, whether it be directly or indirectly as may be the case, then they should have a say in how their money is spent.  Kind of like shareholders that want to maximize their investments.  So too, why wouldn't the players, in that case, want to see the money spent where it will yield the greatest returns where it will impact their bottom lines.  Obviously they would.  To them, as with the owners, this is pure business.  

 

 

7 hours ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

 

Thanks for the clarification but my main issue remains why do they players or for the matter want the NFLPA to get involved in a political/financial headache?  So lets say the NFLPA trys to get the Pegula's to move from buffalo since they donjt have the revenue maximizing stadium, do the players want to insert themselves in that mess and end up being one of the "bad guys". Those are and should be owners decision imo, at one point do the players cease to be :"players" and start to be player/owners?

 

That's essentially what Florio's implying, they don't want that.  Why would they if they can simply have the money instead.  Maybe I read that wrong, but it seems as if it may be forced on them.  

 

 

7 hours ago, JoPar_v2 said:

It is a frankly asinine suggestion by Florio. Again, he’s engaging in wild conjecture to mine some clicks. Trust me, PFT is acutely aware of how sensitive Buffalo fans are about the mere suggestion of relocation.

 

The owners would never, ever EVER give that level of managerial control to players. 

 

It reads to me as if Florio is merely repeating what he's been told by someone involved in the process.  

[Ronin]

1 hour ago, 17years&waiting said:

Unfortunately, I don't see much evidence of this.  The metro has lost approximately 5,000 people over the course of this decade (if you look at census estimates for similar sized cities, they have grown substantially).  Buffalo has very little corporations to buy luxury suites and clubs seats.  And the same lack of corporations means that there aren't huge amounts of high-paying jobs.  

 

Turning decrepit factories into lofts does not equal a true upgrading, and it doesn't sustain an NFL team in the long run.  Buffalo doesn't have the ability to generate huge amounts of new revenue compared to other cities that have NFL teams.  

 

Like many of us who have left Upstate New York, typically for areas with real job, wage, and population growth, you very quickly realize the "upgrading" in Rochester and Buffalo is really just self-serving politicans who are glorifying lipstick on a pig to save their jobs.

 

I want the Buffalo Bills to be in Buffalo.  For many of us, including me, it helps to tie us back to our Upstate NY roots.  But to bury our heads in the sand and say the Bills don't have a revenue problem, that isn't easily solved, is not true.  I hope I'm wrong.

 

Agreed.  

 

One of the "dirty little secrets" that the politicians in NY don't talk about is how immigrants are the big reason for a mitigation of diminishing population.  That's not a positive development.  

[Orlando Buffalo]

4 hours ago, JoeF said:

Just curious, but a related question, how much of a PSL fee would the season ticket holders on the board be willing to pay?  How much of a PSL fee will the WNY market support? 

Just doing some math...a $5,000 per seat PSL fee for 50000 seats generates $250M in upfront cash.  Remember a PSL is a right to buy seasons -- the season fee is in addition. 

 

Is that enough of a "local contribution" to match the Pegula contribution; the NFL financing and a State of NY contribution?  The $5000 per seat is really low compared to other markets....I know its one of the questions on the stadium survey and I believe that the board likely represents a higher economic status than the average of the fan base, but I am just interested.

 

I am sure the "Internet Content Should be Free" crowd will weigh in at "0" PSL fee (just kidding guys and gals) ?

i am curious myself because it is a hard sell for a team to force a long term commitment on a fanbase that has has one playoff birth in the last 20 years.

[Ronin]

6 minutes ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

i am curious myself because it is a hard sell for a team to force a long term commitment on a fanbase that has has one playoff birth in the last 20 years.

 

Myself as well. 

 

The only certainty is that money trumps everything amongst players and owners.  

 

As to Bills fans, I don't think we're normal.  LOL  By that I mean I don't think that most of us care about the "modern amenities" like most fans around the country do.  I could be off, but it seems to me that the biggest concern, by a country mile, is having the ability to tailgate and do it "properly."  That's why IMO a downtown stadium relying on parking garages and the like would be a drastic mistake in Buffalo.  Again, perhaps I'm off, but if the tailgating situation changes, I see fans becoming far more connected to the performance of the team in terms of attending games, and if that ends up happening, meaning a new downtown stadium, if things don't straighten out soon it wouldn't be good as such.  

 

At the end of the day, and since we don't know the figures, I have a difficult time believing that we are anything but near the bottom in terms of our contribution to revenue sharing.  

 

[Malazan]

pft is tmz for the nfl. THey constantly make stuff up just to rile people up and people continually fall for it and then run to their respective forum to post it

[H2o]

Florio walking into work every morning....

[JoPar_v2]

7 hours ago, Ronin said:

 

It reads to me as if Florio is merely repeating what he's been told by someone involved in the process.  

 

Lol no...it doesn’t read like that, unless you: 1) aren’t familiar with Florio or PFT at all, or 2) are the most naive person on earth. Seriously if you are familiar with his site at all you should know by now he engages in wild conjecture, almost exclusively. Florio did not “hear” anything from ANYONE “involved in the process.” For you to even come close to believing that **** is, frankly, laughable. He runs a aggregator site bro. And infuses it with his speculation. That’s it. Goddamn mate.

 

That’s just amazing to me that you even came to that take. 

Edited July 3, 2019 by JoPar_v2

[US Egg]

Only one thing near on par with being loved.....that is being hated or loathed.

 

It usually means you're doing something right if they're paying so much attention to you.

 

The Bills are here to stay and there's nothing anyone can do about It as long as we support them.

Edited July 3, 2019 by I am the egg man

[JoPar_v2]

5 minutes ago, I am the egg man said:

Only one thing near on par with being loved.....that is being hated.

 

It usually means you're doing something right if they're paying that much attention.

 

The Bills are here to stay and there's nothing anyone can do about It as long as we support them.

 

Of course they are staying. And yes, let the national media talk - they dont know f*** all about the actual local situation. It just makes me laugh that people around here, of all places, give any sort of credence to what they say. 

[Doc]

Florio just likes too hear himself talk. The Bills aren’t leaving Buffalo.  Don’t click on the bait. 

[stevewin]

17 hours ago, The 9 Isles said:

“Spinning it forward to cities that currently have stadium issues, the NFLPA would/should/could have influence over the stadium solution in Buffalo. What if, collectively, the NFL’s workforce deems it prudent to have its own money spent in a different market? A market where the return on the investment could be greater? A market where more NFL players would prefer to live and to work?”

This might be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read

[Mr. WEO]

17 hours ago, Mark80 said:

 

I think you are missing the point here.  The point is that their money is already going to be taken in that the pool of revenue in which the players are allocated a certain percentage, will be lower because money will be taken from it and placed into stadium projects.  He is saying since they are essentially paying for some it because of this this now reduced pool of revenue, they should have some say in how its spent.  Simple example with incorrect numbers.  Total Revenue $1B, players get 50% share.  Players get $500M.  In this scenario it may be this.  Total Revenue $1B, Amount dedicated to stadiums $100M.  New Revenue left $900M, players still get 50% share.  Players only get $450M.  So, they actually "paid" for $50M of the stadium improvements.

 

Currently, players get a percentage of “all revenue”, without “reductions for expenses”.

 

https://nfllabor.wordpress.com/2011/07/21/nfl-clubs-approve-comprehensive-agreement/

[Mark80]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Currently, players get a percentage of “all revenue”, without “reductions for expenses”.

 

https://nfllabor.wordpress.com/2011/07/21/nfl-clubs-approve-comprehensive-agreement/

 

Yes, but I believe the negotiating point brought up is to change that for the Stadium fund, sort of like a write-off in the tax world.  At least that's how it read to me.

Edited July 3, 2019 by Mark80