Jordan Phillips and the D-line

[TigerJ]

Yes, it is the slowest period of the year for football discussion, but here'a topic I find interesting.  How are things going to shake out on the defensive line.  Specifically, with the addition of Ed Oliver, who, by virtue of being a 9th overall pick becomes the presumptive starter at 3 tech, is there a way for Jordan Phillips to get enough reps to be a good value to the Bills.  The Bills have kind of an odd setup on the interior of their D-line.  Typically, with a four man front, defenses will have one big, strong dude playing the one or zero tech and a smaller, more disruptive player manning the 3 tech spot.  The Bills have that - sort of - with Star Lotulelei starting at nose, and Ed Oliver (possibly) starting at 3 tech.  Lotulelei isn't the biggest nose tackle in the league, but he's big enough, and very strong.  Interesting, the other two interior linemen, the ones who will make the roster at least, are atypical.  Jordan Phillips if Buffalo's biggest defensive lineman, but he plays mostly 3 tech.  Harrison Phillips, is kind of smallish, (not as small as Oliver) but his skill set makes him a better nose at this point.

 

Jordan Phillips is currently listed as starter at 3 tech.  That's where he got most of his reps last season.  His ambition and expectation is he's going to remain a starter.  The problem with that is virtually everybody else is hoping Ed Oliver will eventually beat him out because his rare explosion at the snap gives him the potential to be unusually disruptive as an interior pass rusher.  Since Oliver is on the small side, I can see Jordan Phillips getting a pretty fair number of reps in an effort to keep Oliver fresh.  The question is, will it be enough?  My question is, can Jordan Phillips be effective as a nose tackle.  He easily has the size.  Especially in passing situations, might Jordan Phillips' quickness for a big man be more of an advantage than Lotulelei's strength?  While we're at it, I wonder if Harrison Phillips can develop more explosion off the snap and use that to become more effective at 3 tech.  Ed Oliver played a lot of nose in college, but I doubt that Buffalo sees him in that role.  Likewise, I think Lotulelei is pretty much stuck at nose.  But if Buffalo can get some position versatility from the the PHillips "brothers" that could be a nice bonus for this defense.

 

Thoughts?

Edited July 1, 2019 by TigerJ

[Buffalo716]

7 minutes ago, TigerJ said:

Yes, it is the slowest period of the year for football discussion, but here'a topic I find interesting.  How are things going to shake out on the defensive line.  Specifically, with the addition of Ed Oliver, who, by virtue of being a 7th overall pick becomes the presumptive starter at 3 tech, is there a way for Jordan Phillips to get enough reps to be a good value to the Bills.  The Bills have kind of an odd setup on the interior of their D-line.  Typically, with a four man front, defenses will have one big, strong dude playing the one or zero tech and a smaller, more disruptive player manning the 3 tech spot.  The Bills have that - sort of - with Star Lotulelei starting at nose, and Ed Oliver (possibly) starting at 3 tech.  Lotulelei isn't the biggest nose tackle in the league, but he's big enough, and very strong.  Interesting, the other two interior linemen, the ones who will make the roster at least, are atypical.  Jordan Phillips if Buffalo's biggest defensive lineman, but he plays mostly 3 tech.  Harrison Phillips, is kind of smallish, (not as small as Oliver) but his skill set makes him a better nose at this point.

 

Jordan Phillips is currently listed as starter at 3 tech.  That's where he got most of his reps last season.  His ambition and expectation is he's going to remain a starter.  The problem with that is virtually everybody else is hoping Ed Oliver will eventually beat him out because his rare explosion at the snap gives him the potential to be unusually disruptive as an interior pass rusher.  Since Oliver is on the small side, I can see Jordan Phillips getting a pretty fair number of reps in an effort to keep Oliver fresh.  The question is, will it be enough?  My question is, can Jordan Phillips be effective as a nose tackle.  He easily has the size.  Especially in passing situations, might Jordan Phillips' quickness for a big man be more of an advantage than Lotulelei's strength?  While we're at it, I wonder if Harrison Phillips can develop more explosion off the snap and use that to become more effective at 3 tech.  Ed Oliver played a lot of nose in college, but I doubt that Buffalo sees him in that role.  Likewise, I think Lotulelei is pretty much stuck at nose.  But if Buffalo can get some position versatility from the the PHillips "brothers" that could be a nice bonus for this defense.

 

Thoughts?

Phillips Jordan has the size to play nose but you take away all his athletic gifts that are better suited for 3 tech or 34 end

 

Having too many good defensive lineman is never a problem. Ask the Giants when they won there 2 SBs

 

Harrison can probably play some 3 tech but he really is a stout 1, even with his size.  He might turn into a really good run stuffer

[LSHMEAB]

I'm not sold on Harrison Phillips, but he put up 42 reps at the combine. I think he's plenty strong enough to play NT. I don't really care that he's 307. 

[TigerJ]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Phillips Jordan has the size to play nose but you take away all his athletic gifts that are better suited for 3 tech or 34 end

 

Having too many good defensive lineman is never a problem. Ask the Giants when they won there 2 SBs

 

Harrison can probably play some 3 tech but he really is a stout 1, even with his size.  He might turn into a really good run stuffer

I don't disagree that Jordan Phillips has a 3 tech skill set, but given the number of snaps Ed Oliver is likely to command, would it make some sense to have both on the field at the same time?  

2 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I'm not sold on Harrison Phillips, but he put up 42 reps at the combine. I think he's plenty strong enough to play NT. I don't really care that he's 307. 

With his wrestling background, he should also have a great grasp of using leverage in his play.

[Buffalo716]

Just now, TigerJ said:

I don't disagree that Jordan Phillips has a 3 tech skill set, but given the number of snaps Ed Oliver is likely to command, would it make some sense to have both on the field at the same time?  

Yes it would in packages

 

Phillips also b****** in Miami about being used as a nose and not allowed to attack and got him cut

 

But it's a new day and I'm sure he will play whatever McD tells him too. He could be really good in a nickel line of 

 

Jerry, Phillips, Oliver, Lorenzo

[Ethan in Cleveland]

OP you are forgetting the team will play a nickel defense on nearly 60% of the snaps. The base defense no doubt will have Star at zero technique.  My bet is J. Phillips and Oliver will be the main pair in the nickel front 4. Also will see Lawson move to DT in the nickel from time to time to get Hughes and Murphy at DE.

H. Phillips did nothing last year and has a long way to go to get more reps. 

DT is incredibly difficult transition to NFL.  I would not be surprised to see Star and J. Phillips in the base defense more than people think. The experience will be helpful in the base defense especially the run game. Oliver's best skill is penetration which can be a liability defending the run but crucial to generate more pass rush. By year's end and barring inury Star will probably see 45% of snaps, H.Phillips 35%, J.Phillips and Oliver around 50% with the remaining being three man fronts and rotations with guys like Lawson.

[TPS]

Jerry and Kyle were the only 2 DL with more than 60% snap counts last year. I think Jerry will be the only one this year to break 60.

 

Since Oliver is a rookie, Jordan will get more than enough reps (40% range). 

[Buffalo716]

24 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

OP you are forgetting the team will play a nickel defense on nearly 60% of the snaps. The base defense no doubt will have Star at zero technique.  My bet is J. Phillips and Oliver will be the main pair in the nickel front 4. Also will see Lawson move to DT in the nickel from time to time to get Hughes and Murphy at DE.

H. Phillips did nothing last year and has a long way to go to get more reps. 

DT is incredibly difficult transition to NFL.  I would not be surprised to see Star and J. Phillips in the base defense more than people think. The experience will be helpful in the base defense especially the run game. Oliver's best skill is penetration which can be a liability defending the run but crucial to generate more pass rush. By year's end and barring inury Star will probably see 45% of snaps, H.Phillips 35%, J.Phillips and Oliver around 50% with the remaining being three man fronts and rotations with guys like Lawson.

Just nitpicking but in McD defense the NT plays a 1 tech ?

[Ethan in Cleveland]

4 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Just nitpicking but in McD defense the NT plays a 1 tech ?

Thanks for the correction

[BADOLBILZ]

 

We had this discussion in the John "Warrow" thread............Lotulelei had a very poor season last year...........he just looked sluggish,  didn't impact OL and couldn't make a play to save his life..........meanwhile Harrison Phillips, while no world beater,  had twice as many tackles in about 8% less snaps.   Wax all you want about DT1T being about tying up blockers but it's NOT the nose tackle position.   The DT1T in McDefense is in position to make some plays.   

 

It's possible that Harrison Phillips steps up and takes a lot more snaps away from Lotulelei and that Jordan Phillips gets bumped over to DT1T occasionally..............and that Star with a cap hit over $11M even gets healthy scratched in some games.    This could all be moot with an injury or two but Lotulelei is the least versatile of the Bills DT options(which include Shaq and Lorax on obvious passing downs) and it's certainly NOT clear that he's their best DT1T at this point after the season he just put forward. 

[Buffalo716]

14 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

We had this discussion in the John "Warrow" thread............Lotulelei had a very poor season last year...........he just looked sluggish,  didn't impact OL and couldn't make a play to save his life..........meanwhile Harrison Phillips, while no world beater,  had twice as many tackles in about 8% less snaps.   Wax all you want about DT1T being about tying up blockers but it's NOT the nose tackle position.   The DT1T in McDefense is in position to make some plays.   

 

It's possible that Harrison Phillips steps up and takes a lot more snaps away from Lotulelei and that Jordan Phillips gets bumped over to DT1T occasionally..............and that Star with a cap hit over $11M even gets healthy scratched in some games.    This could all be moot with an injury or two but Lotulelei is the least versatile of the Bills DT options(which include Shaq and Lorax on obvious passing downs) and it's certainly NOT clear that he's their best DT1T at this point after the season he just put forward. 

I agree but realistically in McDermott's 43 a 1 tech is considered the nose tackle

 

It's almost pretty much the 0tech besides a couple degrees or inches

 

But I can see Harrison taking more snaps because he is an aggressive 1tech that looks to shed blocks ublike star who is a classic gap eater

Edited July 1, 2019 by Buffalo716

[TigerJ]

Hmm.  I hadn't thought about Harrison Phillips that much.  He's still on a learning curve, and could be ready for a more significant role.  

[NoSaint]

7 hours ago, TigerJ said:

I don't disagree that Jordan Phillips has a 3 tech skill set, but given the number of snaps Ed Oliver is likely to command, would it make some sense to have both on the field at the same time?  

With his wrestling background, he should also have a great grasp of using leverage in his play.

 

On some level, 9 games into a season in the 3rd quarter of a game, archetypes go out the window and you are balancing fresh legs vs raw talent and these guys will all get reps in a variety of combos

[MJS]

I guess I just trust McDermott and company to figure that all out.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

But I can see Harrison taking more snaps because he is an aggressive 1tech that looks to shed blocks ublike star who is a classic gap eater

 

 

No they have the same job responsibility........Star just wasn't good last season.    Phillips is a tackling machine because he's pretty good at getting off blocks to make plays.   Star is good at getting blocked and staying blocked.    

 

 

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

No they have the same job responsibility........Star just wasn't good last season.    Phillips is a tackling machine because he's pretty good at getting off blocks to make plays.   Star is good at getting blocked and staying blocked.    

 

 

I don't think I said they have different responsibilities

 

Phillips was just alot more active and attacking and shedding last season while star was playing Patty cake and staying engaged

[Saxum]

It is interesting that the oldest player of the DTs took largest percentage of snaps there telling what Coach McD thought about Kyle and his declining skills.  The lines might vary according to offenses Bills face - when the offense line is heavier and slower vs an OL fast with lots of movement.  I hope the defense is versatile enough to do that.  I remember when Wade Phillips had 2 injuries in front 7 he changed alignments between weeks which surprised opponent.

[Thurman#1]

6 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

We had this discussion in the John "Warrow" thread............Lotulelei had a very poor season last year...........he just looked sluggish,  didn't impact OL and couldn't make a play to save his life..........meanwhile Harrison Phillips, while no world beater,  had twice as many tackles in about 8% less snaps.   Wax all you want about DT1T being about tying up blockers but it's NOT the nose tackle position.   The DT1T in McDefense is in position to make some plays.   

 

It's possible that Harrison Phillips steps up and takes a lot more snaps away from Lotulelei and that Jordan Phillips gets bumped over to DT1T occasionally..............and that Star with a cap hit over $11M even gets healthy scratched in some games.    This could all be moot with an injury or two but Lotulelei is the least versatile of the Bills DT options(which include Shaq and Lorax on obvious passing downs) and it's certainly NOT clear that he's their best DT1T at this point after the season he just put forward. 

 

 

We did indeed have this discussion in the Wawrow thread. And you did indeed say that Lotulelei had a poor season last year.

 

But you were unconvincing, then and now. There really is no special reason to think that McDermott believes what you believe, no reason at all. Lotulelei has always been a two-down player under McDermott. He's never been much of a penetrator.

 

Phillips doesn't always play the same position as Lotulelei, nor the same technique or style, nor do defenses play him the same way. Lotulelei is consistently asked to eat space, and is double-teamed, while Phillips gets single-teamed but plenty. He simply hasn't earned the same respect from defenses that Lotulelei has. They might be hoping that Phillips will be able to take over for Lotulelei a few years down the road and possibly that he might be a bit cheaper. Who knows, it might happen.

 

Sure, it's possible that Lotulelei is a healthy scratch. Same with Phillips. Oliver. Any of them. Again, though, no particular reason beyond your dislike of the guy and his salary from minute one to think that Lotulelei will be any more likely to have that happen than the rest of them.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Thurman#1

[Boca BIlls]

6 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

No they have the same job responsibility........Star just wasn't good last season.    Phillips is a tackling machine because he's pretty good at getting off blocks to make plays.   Star is good at getting blocked and staying blocked.    

 

 

This poor fella doesn't know what he is talking about. I heard about those diseases.

[gjv001]

A glance at our upcoming seasons scheduel shows that our defense will be going up against most of the leagues formidable rushing offense. Not minimising  the need to rush the passer, but if we don't stop the run first, we will probably have a sorry season.