The day the Sabres’ futility and New Era Stadium collided...

[Mr. WEO]

8 hours ago, Doc said:

 

The discussion was about getting good coaches.

 

That is what ScottLaw was also referring too 

[May Day 10]

13 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Sabres have a strong, long tradition of winning and winning coaches.  None of that since Pegula bought the team.  So, you're wrong.

 

Hockey is not joke.  But the NFL has become a bit of one over the decades.  There's no getting around that.  Southern and Western expansion to places where regular people never played hockey or even been on skates have rendered it nearly insignificant as a nationally interesting league.

 

 

 

It has been a slow cook, but hockey has taken strong root in "warm" markets

 

The 1st overall pick 3 years ago is from srizona.  This year, orlando.  Another 1st rounder from anaheim, and the sabres' 2nd first rounder is from irvine, ca.  San Jose has the country's  largest mens hockey league.  The usdp has reached an unprecedented level.  

 

There has been some good fanbases created out of thin air.  Some failures too.  

 

The nhl's revenue has increased at a steady rate, and the league is very healthy since the salaries have been tied to revenue.  

 

 

With that said, the nhl will never be more than the 4th or 3rd north american pro sport (i feel like baseball (and i like baseball) in 50 years will go the way of horse racing and boxing.).  People arent going to stanley cup watch parties, joining pools that are almost socially mandatory, and playing in 4 fantasy hockey leagues at once.  The sport is just not accessible to the masses.  Players are boring (basically every interview is a pre scripted cliche).  

 

The nhl also suffers from a very unimaginative board of governors and commissioner.  Instead of trying to be like the other sports with stupid and couter productive coaches challenges and such (we need more scoring, but hang on for this 10 minute review to make sure his hangnail wasnt partially past the blue line when they entered the zone a minute earlier), they need to step out and make the nhl unique.  No commercial breaks in-period.  The nfl and mlb would kill to have the overseas appeal and opportunity the nhl has.... but the nhl does nothing significant.

Edited July 3, 2019 by May Day 10

[JohnC]

9 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

They really aren’t. 

 

Also,  every market watches the SB.  Pretty much every market watches the NBA finals because every market is filled with fans who grew up watching and/or playing those sports.  

 

All the larger early NHL cities has expats all over the country.  Adding all of those other cities added a few local fans but resulted in lower national interest in the championship,  which is a major indicator of overall interest.  

 

And the playoff ratings were minuscule (and still the best in years lol) with an average of less than 800,000 viewers per game for 45 first round games.  That’s a fraction of the viewers the NHL would get, nationwide,  decades ago.  

 

It’s diluted to irrelevance.

We are not going to agree on this issue. My central point is that the hockey market in the USA is a different market than other pro sports in the USA. It always has been that way going back to the pre-expansion era. In this particular sport the market was never a national market. It was a regional market. Going back prior to expansion cities such as Detroit and Chicago were terrific regional markets but it never really spilled into the national market. The Rangers in NY were very popular with an avid fan base but that success never grew into a national product. That is the major distinction between this sport and the other pro sports such as basketball and football. In many ways baseball has become a regional sports market rather than a national market. It's just a different business model than the national model that you are referring to. Again, hockey has never been a national sport with a national media structure like some of the other mainstay American sports. 

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

That is what ScottLaw was also referring too 

 

He's talking overall.  Again top coaches don't want to coach in Buffalo.  When Ralph was alive, the reasons given were that it was because he was cheap, didn't value coaches, was old, etc.  With Pegula it's the opposite, but nothing has changed WRT attracting top coaches.  And if the Pegulas were so inept at sports management, the Bills wouldn't have made the playoffs in just their 3rd full season of ownership.

[Mr. WEO]

42 minutes ago, JohnC said:

We are not going to agree on this issue. My central point is that the hockey market in the USA is a different market than other pro sports in the USA. It always has been that way going back to the pre-expansion era. In this particular sport the market was never a national market. It was a regional market. Going back prior to expansion cities such as Detroit and Chicago were terrific regional markets but it never really spilled into the national market. The Rangers in NY were very popular with an avid fan base but that success never grew into a national product. That is the major distinction between this sport and the other pro sports such as basketball and football. In many ways baseball has become a regional sports market rather than a national market. It's just a different business model than the national model that you are referring to. Again, hockey has never been a national sport with a national media structure like some of the other mainstay American sports. 

 

National expansion diluted all viewership, even regional.  The ratings tell us this.  More Americans (whenever they live) watched before the expansion. 

13 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

He's talking overall.  Again top coaches don't want to coach in Buffalo.  When Ralph was alive, the reasons given were that it was because he was cheap, didn't value coaches, was old, etc.  With Pegula it's the opposite, but nothing has changed WRT attracting top coaches.  And if the Pegulas were so inept at sports management, the Bills wouldn't have made the playoffs in just their 3rd full season of ownership.

 

I’m sure he meant coaching as well.  One significant measure of coaching success and quality is playoff seasons.  The Sabres history is strong for playoff appearances.  That ended after  Pegula bought the team.  Multiple NHL coaching positions were filled this off season before Buffalo’s.  They hired a soccer coach who was fired from his last NHL coaching job after 1 season....by Skype.

 

Your position makes no sense. 

[May Day 10]

26 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

He's talking overall.  Again top coaches don't want to coach in Buffalo.  When Ralph was alive, the reasons given were that it was because he was cheap, didn't value coaches, was old, etc.  With Pegula it's the opposite, but nothing has changed WRT attracting top coaches.  And if the Pegulas were so inept at sports management, the Bills wouldn't have made the playoffs in just their 3rd full season of ownership.

 

it isnt about either.

 

Much of it is about organizational credibility, and the ability to have control and success.  No Coach or quality GM would come here with Ralph Wilson and Russ Brandon making key decisions, and cash to the cap philosophy.

 

Same thing is with the Sabres.  They have not had good management and little credibility.  Last year, if Pegula decided to step further from the team, hand off the steering wheel with full autonomy, I have little doubt they could have landed Lou Lamoriello and Barry Trotz.  

 

Coaches and top execs don't want to come somewhere that obsesses about "collaboration" (AKA letting the owners play with the toys).  You are going to get inexperienced guys and/or guys happy to get an opportunity

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

I’m sure he meant coaching as well.  One significant measure of coaching success and quality is playoff seasons.  The Sabres history is strong for playoff appearances.  That ended after  Pegula bought the team.  Multiple NHL coaching positions were filled this off season before Buffalo’s.  They hired a soccer coach who was fired from his last NHL coaching job after 1 season....by Skype.

 

Your position makes no sense. 

 

True it makes absolutely no sense that coaches, for whatever reason (market, weather, wives/family) wouldn't want to be in Buffalo versus a bigger market.  Because players, and the vast majority of the general public, don't feel the same way.  Yeah, okay. 

 

1 hour ago, May Day 10 said:

it isnt about either.

 

Much of it is about organizational credibility, and the ability to have control and success.  No Coach or quality GM would come here with Ralph Wilson and Russ Brandon making key decisions, and cash to the cap philosophy.

 

Same thing is with the Sabres.  They have not had good management and little credibility.  Last year, if Pegula decided to step further from the team, hand off the steering wheel with full autonomy, I have little doubt they could have landed Lou Lamoriello and Barry Trotz.  

 

Coaches and top execs don't want to come somewhere that obsesses about "collaboration" (AKA letting the owners play with the toys).  You are going to get inexperienced guys and/or guys happy to get an opportunity

 

Lamoriello and Trotz were never coming here.    But I’d like to hear the takes of other Sabre’s fans on that one. And Snyder meddles all the time and still gets name coaches.

Edited July 3, 2019 by Doc

[May Day 10]

I dont believe the Sabres or Bills really covet guys like that in a serious manner, mainly due to a fear of disruption of their management structure.  

[May Day 10]

The Islanders, mind you, have/had a history of being the biggest joke in the NHL for nearly a quarter century with clown shoe owners, Mike Milbury trading all star teams away, Garth Snow, playing some/all in that awful venue in Brooklyn, etc.  They were in the process of likely losing a top-5 NHL player.  

Edited July 3, 2019 by May Day 10

[Doc]

43 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Agree Lamoriello wasn't, but what makes you say Trotz was not?

 

10 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

The Islanders, mind you, have/had a history of being the biggest joke in the NHL for nearly a quarter century with clown shoe owners, Mike Milbury trading all star teams away, Garth Snow, playing some/all in that awful venue in Brooklyn, etc.  They were in the process of likely losing a top-5 NHL player.  

 

I agree the Islanders have had clown show owners.  Yet Trotz chose them over Buffalo.  Because they're a large market. 

[May Day 10]

Its because they have a new owner, who gave lamoriello the clout to do anything he wants to fix the organization.  Lamoriello would never agree to manage a team where the owner helps scout and interview potential players.

 

The Islanders arent a desirable destination.  Very poor arena and facilities.  

[K-9]

18 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

 

I agree the Islanders have had clown show owners.  Yet Trotz chose them over Buffalo.  Because they're a large market. 

When did Trotz choose them over Buffalo? He was steadily employed when we had every job opening since Lindy left and we didn’t have the job opening when he became available before last season. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

True it makes absolutely no sense that coaches, for whatever reason (market, weather, wives/family) wouldn't want to be in Buffalo versus a bigger market.  Because players, and the vast majority of the general public, don't feel the same way.  Yeah, okay. 

 

 

Lamoriello and Trotz were never coming here.    But I’d like to hear the takes of other Sabre’s fans on that one. And Snyder meddles all the time and still gets name coaches.

 

Buffalo Sabres haven’t had that problem for most of their history....

 

To now claim that Buffalo has always struggled to get good coaches to the Sabres is odd.

Edited July 3, 2019 by Mr. WEO

[Mr. WEO]

Edmonton and Ottawa are hardly “bigger markets”

.

Edited July 3, 2019 by Mr. WEO

[Doc]

19 hours ago, May Day 10 said:

Its because they have a new owner, who gave lamoriello the clout to do anything he wants to fix the organization.  Lamoriello would never agree to manage a team where the owner helps scout and interview potential players.

 

The Islanders arent a desirable destination.  Very poor arena and facilities.  

 

There are levels of desirable.  Sure they may be the Jets to the Rangers' Giants, but they're still NYC.

 

19 hours ago, K-9 said:

When did Trotz choose them over Buffalo? He was steadily employed when we had every job opening since Lindy left and we didn’t have the job opening when he became available before last season. 

 

May Day said the Sabres could have had Lamoriello and Trotz this past season, if not for Pegula.  I can only assume he thinks that Lamoriello would have fired Housley immediately after becoming GM and gone after Trotz. 

 

19 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Buffalo Sabres haven’t had that problem for most of their history....

 

To now claim that Buffalo has always struggled to get good coaches to the Sabres is odd.

 

I never said they didn't find good coaches: I said they never were a top destination for coaches.  Prior to Pegula they almost always ended up hiring 1st time head coaches.  Now I've never paid enough attention to be able to tell you if they struggled in their coaching searches and had to settle for them, but I suspect they did.  And the guys under Pegula who had previous head coaching experience, Nolan and especially Bylsma (who had a winning record and won a SC with Pgh) were guys who were hailed as good hires, and yet they still failed.

Edited July 4, 2019 by Doc

[K-9]

12 hours ago, Doc said:

 

There are levels of desirable.  Sure they may be the Jets to the Rangers' Giants, but they're still NYC.

 

 

May Day said the Sabres could have had Lamoriello and Trotz this past season, if not for Pegula.  I can only assume he thinks that Lamoriello would have fired Housley immediately after becoming GM and gone after Trotz. 

 

 

I never said they didn't find good coaches: I said they never were a top destination for coaches.  Prior to Pegula they almost always ended up hiring 1st time head coaches.  Now I've never paid enough attention to be able to tell you if they struggled in their coaching searches and had to settle for them, but I suspect they did.  And the guys under Pegula who had previous head coaching experience, Nolan and especially Bylsma (who had a winning record and won a SC with Pgh) were guys who were hailed as good hires, and yet they still failed.

Respectfully, May Day is just offering conjecture. There is simply no basis at all, NONE, to this conjecture. Any team in the league, ANY team, could have had Lamoriello and Trotz if they were willing to create those openings and meet their demands. And the Sabres would have been LESS likely candidates since JBotts and Housley were only one year into their tenures. 

[K-9]

23 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Agree Lamoriello wasn't, but what makes you say Trotz was not?

The job wasn’t open at the time Trotz became available. That’s why not. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

14 minutes ago, K-9 said:

The job wasn’t open at the time Trotz became available. That’s why not. 

 

...STILL amazes me how long Garth Snow(job) held on as GM for so long......the Isles' days of Potvin, Arbour, Chico, Gilles, Bossey, etc are a distant memory...remember watching an Isles/Flyers game back in the 70's in college....Young & Chadwick were the announce team.......Schultz decided he would drop 'em versus Gilles......Gilles landed the FIRST and ONLY punch.....Schultz was out cold...a thing of beauty..........

Edited July 4, 2019 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[May Day 10]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

Respectfully, May Day is just offering conjecture. There is simply no basis at all, NONE, to this conjecture. Any team in the league, ANY team, could have had Lamoriello and Trotz if they were willing to create those openings and meet their demands. And the Sabres would have been LESS likely candidates since JBotts and Housley were only one year into their tenures. 

 

Yes.  They were not in on lamoriello, because they had botterill and housley.  Yay 

 

It wouldnt have been illegal to make a change, but i doubt the sabres entertained it.  I dont believe they would entertain it even if the position is available because lamoriello would not welcome input from people (pegulas) on personnel matters and coach selections.  Lamoriello wouldnt accept a job where he didnt have control (and probably why he bailed on toronto).

 

If its my team, and lou is available, i clear the deck for the opportunity to bring him.

Edited July 4, 2019 by May Day 10

[K-9]

1 minute ago, May Day 10 said:

 

Yes.  They were not in on lamoriello, because they had botterill and housley.  Yay 

 

It wouldnt have been illegal to make a change, but i doubt the sabres entertained it.  I dont believe they would entertain it even if the position is available because lamoriello would not welcome input from people (pegulas) on personnel matters and coach selections.  Lamoriello wouldnt accept a job where he didnt have control (and probably why he bailed on toronto).

Look, this forum is all about conjecture at times and it can be fun to engage in. 

 

In this particular case, I was merely responding to a poster that said Trotz chose the Islanders over the Sabres, which has no basis in fact. None. So while I can enjoy conjecture as well as the next guy, I tend to draw the line when it’s used to support an untruth.