Saxum Posted June 26, 2019 Posted June 26, 2019 50 minutes ago, BubbaT said: Doesnt have to be Kim. I do not think he cares if he puts Jim Overdorf in a head lock. It actually may be good for him.
Ronin Posted June 27, 2019 Posted June 27, 2019 7 hours ago, BubbaT said: Nothing football related will get him fired this year in my opinion. Nothing. He might be on the hot seat in 2020 but not this year. Misconduct in the workplace is about the only thing I can think of that would trigger a firing and it seems unimagineable to me but one never knows. So assuminng for the sake of this part of the discusssion, that Allen doesn't improve much and Oliver also shows bust, we finish 6-10 again. You don't think that the heat would be on to fire McD and/or Beane? 1
BubbaT Posted June 27, 2019 Posted June 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Limeaid said: I do not think he cares if he puts Jim Overdorf in a head lock. It actually may be good for him. Ask Russ Brandon and the multiple Sabre execs that got canned this year for workplace improprities. Its a fireable offense. But I know you know that and are just being a dope.
Rico Posted June 27, 2019 Posted June 27, 2019 5 minutes ago, Ronin said: So assuminng for the sake of this part of the discusssion, that Allen doesn't improve much and Oliver also shows bust, we finish 6-10 again. You don't think that the heat would be on to fire McD and/or Beane? Sure, during and after 2020 if no big improvement. Three straight years with no playoffs > breaking the drought.
BubbaT Posted June 27, 2019 Posted June 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ronin said: So assuminng for the sake of this part of the discusssion, that Allen doesn't improve much and Oliver also shows bust, we finish 6-10 again. You don't think that the heat would be on to fire McD and/or Beane? Yes. I do not think he gets fired in those circumstances. They are not going to keep turning over Bills coaches every 2 or 3 years, especially one that made the playoffs with Tyrod Taylor and coaxed 6 wins out of a team last year with a rookie QB that is as green as grass and with the worst offensive line and wideouts in team history perhaps. Fans may be impatient and might project big things this year and get bummed when they don't reach it but I doubt management will act till after 2020. I'm hoping the FA's help this year but I'm not convinced signing a ton of them is a viable way to build anything special. It is a time filler till they get better talent on the roster on their own.
Ronin Posted June 27, 2019 Posted June 27, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Rico said: Sure, during and after 2020 if no big improvement. Three straight years with no playoffs > breaking the drought. Well, "breaking the drought" on its own is pretty meaningless other than to avoid embarrassment for Buffalo. Everyone knows we weren't truly a playoff caliber team. And if we were, then how has McD let it deteriorate so quickly. That's overrated. There has to be a trend towards reaching that goal. We'll see how things shake out, but I envision absolutely no scenario whereby Allen doesn't make massive strides and the heat for McD and Beane doesn't begin. If Allen does that then they'll get a stay. 12 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Honest question: what is one thing McDermott has shown that looks like an elite coach skill? That is an outstanding question. Unless someone on my ignore list has answered it I notice that no one else has answered it. I don't see any such skills. Same for Beane, I see nothing indicative that he knows what he's doing either. Not that that should have been unexpected, he's an OJT GM and therefore was a coin-flip at best. Edited June 27, 2019 by Ronin
Rico Posted June 27, 2019 Posted June 27, 2019 7 minutes ago, Ronin said: Well, "breaking the drought" on its own is pretty meaningless other than to avoid embarrassment for Buffalo. Everyone knows we weren't truly a playoff caliber team. And if we were, then how has McD let it deteriorate so quickly. That's overrated. There has to be a trend towards reaching that goal. We'll see how things shake out, but I envision absolutely no scenario whereby Allen doesn't make massive strides and the heat for McD and Beane doesn't begin. If Allen does that then they'll get a stay. That is an outstanding question. Unless someone on my ignore list has answered it I notice that no one else has answered it. I don't see any such skills. Same for Beane, I see nothing indicative that he knows what he's doing either. Not that that should have been unexpected, he's an OJT GM and therefore was a coin-flip at best. No, bottom line results are what matter, they made the playoffs, and after 17 years of failure, that’s not overrated at all. Anything else you might add concerning that achievement is just spin. 1
Ronin Posted June 27, 2019 Posted June 27, 2019 10 minutes ago, BubbaT said: Yes. I do not think he gets fired in those circumstances. They are not going to keep turning over Bills coaches every 2 or 3 years, especially one that made the playoffs with Tyrod Taylor and coaxed 6 wins out of a team last year with a rookie QB that is as green as grass and with the worst offensive line and wideouts in team history perhaps. Fans may be impatient and might project big things this year and get bummed when they don't reach it but I doubt management will act till after 2020. I'm hoping the FA's help this year but I'm not convinced signing a ton of them is a viable way to build anything special. It is a time filler till they get better talent on the roster on their own. Indeed, but after three seasons, even two if we include that first one as a buffer season for reorienting contracts and the like, they've had plenty of time to assemble talent via three drafts now and otherwise two full offseasons of free-agency on their own. There has to be at least a significant trend in the positive direction. Keeping a coach that appears headed for mediocrity even if he doesn't crap out doesn't seem like a good biding of time. To me it more seems like a let's just see if he'll accidentally get it right next year kinda thing. I don't think that's worth waiting around for if there's a better coach available following the season. That's one of the problems we've had with QBs and coaches, instead of making decisions in years where one is available we always seem to passover a year where that's the case and then have less-than-optimal ones to choose from. That was the case with Manuel, instead of taking Russell Wilson, whom I was shocked to still see around in the 3rd although I'd have taken him in the 2nd easily, we waited until the following season and then reached for Manuel in a year when there really were no good QB prospects. Even with Allen, we could have realized that Taylor wasn't a starter and taken Mahomes or Watson, either one. They decided that we didn't need a QB and then they felt that their hand was forced in a year with a lot of risky QBs again. As I've said, I'd have used that mass of picks to build the OL and draft Lock this year. Kind of the opposite, but point being that they drafted from a draft wedged in between two better QB drafts again. Part of building a team is getting optimal value and you don't do that by drafting a position in a draft that is weak for that position. You do it by drafting positions that are rich in that position in any draft. I think they've had enough time to at least get to average all-around if it's going to ever happen on a consistent basis. 9 minutes ago, Rico said: No, bottom line results are what matter, they made the playoffs, and after 17 years of failure, that’s not overrated at all. Anything else you might add concerning that achievement is just spin. OK Since you didn't realize, apparently, we had the 22nd ranked scoring offense, the 29th ranked yardage offense, the 18th scoring defense and the 26th yardage defense, and we needed another team to upset their opponent in order for us to "make the playoffs" in which we were summarily ousted. I guess we simply have different definitions of overrated, but there are plenty of people in both the fans and media, even some here, that have said the same. Everyone's entitled to their opinion however, but good luck finding another team that made the playoffs with rankings like that, ever.
Rico Posted June 27, 2019 Posted June 27, 2019 14 minutes ago, Ronin said: Indeed, but after three seasons, even two if we include that first one as a buffer season for reorienting contracts and the like, they've had plenty of time to assemble talent via three drafts now and otherwise two full offseasons of free-agency on their own. There has to be at least a significant trend in the positive direction. Keeping a coach that appears headed for mediocrity even if he doesn't crap out doesn't seem like a good biding of time. To me it more seems like a let's just see if he'll accidentally get it right next year kinda thing. I don't think that's worth waiting around for if there's a better coach available following the season. That's one of the problems we've had with QBs and coaches, instead of making decisions in years where one is available we always seem to passover a year where that's the case and then have less-than-optimal ones to choose from. That was the case with Manuel, instead of taking Russell Wilson, whom I was shocked to still see around in the 3rd although I'd have taken him in the 2nd easily, we waited until the following season and then reached for Manuel in a year when there really were no good QB prospects. Even with Allen, we could have realized that Taylor wasn't a starter and taken Mahomes or Watson, either one. They decided that we didn't need a QB and then they felt that their hand was forced in a year with a lot of risky QBs again. As I've said, I'd have used that mass of picks to build the OL and draft Lock this year. Kind of the opposite, but point being that they drafted from a draft wedged in between two better QB drafts again. Part of building a team is getting optimal value and you don't do that by drafting a position in a draft that is weak for that position. You do it by drafting positions that are rich in that position in any draft. I think they've had enough time to at least get to average all-around if it's going to ever happen on a consistent basis. OK Since you didn't realize, apparently, we had the 22nd ranked scoring offense, the 29th ranked yardage offense, the 18th scoring defense and the 26th yardage defense, and we needed another team to upset their opponent in order for us to "make the playoffs" in which we were summarily ousted. I guess we simply have different definitions of overrated, but there are plenty of people in both the fans and media, even some here, that have said the same. Everyone's entitled to their opinion however, but good luck finding another team that made the playoffs with rankings like that, ever. “Stats are for losers.” - Bill Belichick 1 1
Ethan in Cleveland Posted June 27, 2019 Author Posted June 27, 2019 50 minutes ago, BubbaT said: Yes. I do not think he gets fired in those circumstances. They are not going to keep turning over Bills coaches every 2 or 3 years, especially one that made the playoffs with Tyrod Taylor and coaxed 6 wins out of a team last year with a rookie QB that is as green as grass and with the worst offensive line and wideouts in team history perhaps. Fans may be impatient and might project big things this year and get bummed when they don't reach it but I doubt management will act till after 2020. I'm hoping the FA's help this year but I'm not convinced signing a ton of them is a viable way to build anything special. It is a time filler till they get better talent on the roster on their own. Hmmm. So if not signing a bunch of FA's is not the way to go, then what was the purpose of 2018? I'm not saying it was the right thing to do. But that was their plan. If it doesn't work, should they not be held accountable? I will answer that for you. It all depends on Allen. If he looks good and the FAs bomb then they still keep their jobs. If Allen looks like a bust then one or both of them should be gone. This board can't rip Whaley and Nix for EJ and TT and then let McDermott and Beane have a pass.
downunderbill Posted June 27, 2019 Posted June 27, 2019 47 minutes ago, Ronin said: Indeed, but after three seasons, even two if we include that first one as a buffer season for reorienting contracts and the like, they've had plenty of time to assemble talent via three drafts now and otherwise two full offseasons of free-agency on their own. There has to be at least a significant trend in the positive direction. Keeping a coach that appears headed for mediocrity even if he doesn't crap out doesn't seem like a good biding of time. To me it more seems like a let's just see if he'll accidentally get it right next year kinda thing. I don't think that's worth waiting around for if there's a better coach available following the season. That's one of the problems we've had with QBs and coaches, instead of making decisions in years where one is available we always seem to passover a year where that's the case and then have less-than-optimal ones to choose from. That was the case with Manuel, instead of taking Russell Wilson, whom I was shocked to still see around in the 3rd although I'd have taken him in the 2nd easily, we waited until the following season and then reached for Manuel in a year when there really were no good QB prospects. Even with Allen, we could have realized that Taylor wasn't a starter and taken Mahomes or Watson, either one. They decided that we didn't need a QB and then they felt that their hand was forced in a year with a lot of risky QBs again. As I've said, I'd have used that mass of picks to build the OL and draft Lock this year. Kind of the opposite, but point being that they drafted from a draft wedged in between two better QB drafts again. Part of building a team is getting optimal value and you don't do that by drafting a position in a draft that is weak for that position. You do it by drafting positions that are rich in that position in any draft. I think they've had enough time to at least get to average all-around if it's going to ever happen on a consistent basis. OK Since you didn't realize, apparently, we had the 22nd ranked scoring offense, the 29th ranked yardage offense, the 18th scoring defense and the 26th yardage defense, and we needed another team to upset their opponent in order for us to "make the playoffs" in which we were summarily ousted. I guess we simply have different definitions of overrated, but there are plenty of people in both the fans and media, even some here, that have said the same. Everyone's entitled to their opinion however, but good luck finding another team that made the playoffs with rankings like that, ever. If the Bills make the playoffs this year, or Allen puts together a nice season, just how disappointed are you going to be? I don't think I've read a positive post yet.
Ronin Posted June 27, 2019 Posted June 27, 2019 46 minutes ago, Rico said: “Stats are for losers.” - Bill Belichick Gee, what a wonderfully insightful critically well-thought out response. Nicely done. I look forward to more original deeply inspiring insights from you in the future. 2
BubbaT Posted June 27, 2019 Posted June 27, 2019 22 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said: Hmmm. So if not signing a bunch of FA's is not the way to go, then what was the purpose of 2018? I'm not saying it was the right thing to do. But that was their plan. If it doesn't work, should they not be held accountable? I will answer that for you. It all depends on Allen. If he looks good and the FAs bomb then they still keep their jobs. If Allen looks like a bust then one or both of them should be gone. This board can't rip Whaley and Nix for EJ and TT and then let McDermott and Beane have a pass. I never said it wasnt the way to go. Where did I say that? I think they had to do that. They stripped it down to the studs and there was nothing left to build on but marginal OL's and unproven wideouts. They have to try to improve it as best as they can. This will allow them to compete. The FA deals are short for a reason: they can move on and draft their own guys to replace some of the FAs. Just remember, a team had to let these guys go. They werent good enough where they came from. Not many of them were due to finances as these deals arent really that big (with a few exceptions). I just don't think you are looking at a championship level team here yet. To expect a significant playoff run or fire the coach is, I think (just my opinion) too polarized a position to be in. I want to see improvement too. I hope we are talking extensions for all at the end of 2019 myself. I just don't see them moving on from this coach till after the 2020 season if things havent improved or have regressed (especially on D where they have been pretty solid in McD's tenure).
Ronin Posted June 27, 2019 Posted June 27, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, downunderbill said: If the Bills make the playoffs this year, or Allen puts together a nice season, just how disappointed are you going to be? I don't think I've read a positive post yet. I'll be absolutely jacked if Allen puts together a nice season. I'll be jacked if he does that and we go only 8-8 and miss the playoffs. As a personality Allen's tops. You couldn't ask for a better team leader. As to positive posts, when there's something that I consider to be positive to such an extent that it warrants keeping this coach or GM I'll be among the first to say so. Just not seeing it at this point. What I"m curious about is how all of the people here that insist that Allen's going to be among the best this year, that Oliver's going to be the next Darnold, that Singletary's going to replace Shady, that our WRs are finally a good batch, that Knox and/or Kroft will not be injured this season, ditto for Morse, etc., are going to react if/when that all turns out to not be the case. Oh wait, I know how that'll look, we see it every three years or so. As you were. Sorry that my takes bother you. Not sure why. It's only discussion. Sounds like a personal problem to me. Edited June 27, 2019 by Ronin
downunderbill Posted June 27, 2019 Posted June 27, 2019 1 minute ago, Ronin said: I'll be absolutely jacked if Allen puts together a nice season. As to positive posts, when there's something that I consider to be positive to such an extent that it warrants keeping this coach or GM I'll be among the first to say so. Just not seeing it at this point. What I"m curious about is how all of the people here that insist that Allen's going to be among the best this year, that Oliver's going to be the next Darnold, that Singletary's going to replace Shady, that our WRs are finally a good batch, that Knox and/or Kroft will not be injured this season, ditto for Morse, etc., are going to react if/when that all turns out to not be the case. Oh wait, I know how that'll look, we see it every three years or so. As you were. Sorry that my takes bother you. Not sure why. It's only discussion. Sounds like a personal problem to me. What makes you think your posting bothers me. It's merely an observation backed by endless examples. Every time I see Allens name mentioned I'm almost excited for an extremely long-winded rant about how everyone and everything sucks. The same thing over and over and over again.
Rocky Landing Posted June 27, 2019 Posted June 27, 2019 19 minutes ago, downunderbill said: What makes you think your posting bothers me. It's merely an observation backed by endless examples. Every time I see Allens name mentioned I'm almost excited for an extremely long-winded rant about how everyone and everything sucks. The same thing over and over and over again. The thing of it is that Ronin will egregiously, and willfully misrepresent things—stats, plays, records, etc.— to push his crusade. He’s utterly intellectually dishonest. And he’s constantly pushing the narrative that those who disagree with him are “taking it personally,”or “can’t handle discussion,” or “sorry you can’t get on with your life” (ha actually said that to somebody!) All of which would lead me to believe that he really wants to get under your skin. Its at the top of his agenda. 1
BigBuff423 Posted June 27, 2019 Posted June 27, 2019 13 hours ago, Ronin said: Since you didn't realize, apparently, we had the 22nd ranked scoring offense, the 29th ranked yardage offense, the 18th scoring defense and the 26th yardage defense, and we needed another team to upset their opponent in order for us to "make the playoffs" in which we were summarily ousted. I guess we simply have different definitions of overrated, but there are plenty of people in both the fans and media, even some here, that have said the same. Everyone's entitled to their opinion however, but good luck finding another team that made the playoffs with rankings like that, ever. To your point, here's an entire list of other teams, many of which were worse than the Bills were in 2017, that made the playoffs (pay attention to the last one): https://bleacherreport.com/articles/958403-the-25-worst-playoff-teams-in-nfl-history#slide25 You can now let this sleeping dog lie, or you can keep poking at something where we can agree to disagree.
reddogblitz Posted June 27, 2019 Posted June 27, 2019 3 hours ago, BigBuff423 said: To your point, here's an entire list of other teams, many of which were worse than the Bills were in 2017, that made the playoffs (pay attention to the last one): https://bleacherreport.com/articles/958403-the-25-worst-playoff-teams-in-nfl-history#slide25 You can now let this sleeping dog lie, or you can keep poking at something where we can agree to disagree. Every year is different and you have to out perform other teams to get in POs. There have been plenty of years in the drought where it was a down year and 9-7 would get us in, but we couldn't even get close. The 2017 team DID out perform the other teams. I'm proud of that. There is no litmus test of playoffs beyond out perform everyone else which we did. There is better beer than this to cry in.
BigBuff423 Posted June 27, 2019 Posted June 27, 2019 3 hours ago, reddogblitz said: Every year is different and you have to out perform other teams to get in POs. There have been plenty of years in the drought where it was a down year and 9-7 would get us in, but we couldn't even get close. The 2017 team DID out perform the other teams. I'm proud of that. There is no litmus test of playoffs beyond out perform everyone else which we did. There is better beer than this to cry in. I appreciate your perspective and I have no issue with saying it took luck and some key timing to get them into the playoffs - and be happy with the result. My response was to the statement when the poster said “good luck” finding a team who made it into the playoffs with worse stats. To wit; my link to the article from a few years ago that ranked 25 teams who statistically were pretty bad to “meh” and made the playoffs. It was my way of saying, “They weren’t great, they were just ‘good enough’” and that not giving McD credit for breaking the drought with that team, is unjustified while giving him too much credit to the point of an extension isn’t logical either.
reddogblitz Posted June 27, 2019 Posted June 27, 2019 1 minute ago, BigBuff423 said: I appreciate your perspective and I have no issue with saying it took luck and some key timing to get them into the playoffs - and be happy with the result. My response was to the statement when the poster said “good luck” finding a team who made it into the playoffs with worse stats. To wit; my link to the article from a few years ago that ranked 25 teams who statistically were pretty bad to “meh” and made the playoffs. It was my way of saying, “They weren’t great, they were just ‘good enough’” and that not giving McD credit for breaking the drought with that team, is unjustified while giving him too much credit to the point of an extension isn’t logical either. Right. I give 'em credit because the team in 2017 came up big when needed to win a few games like Tampa Bay and Indianapolis that past teams seemed to find a way to lose. Win a playoff game and we can start talking about maybe considering an extension. 1 1
Recommended Posts