GG Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 15 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said: What's the difference between 500 and 6000? Isn't there also a difference between acting on an agreement and not acting on an agreement? The dems have made every attempt possible to thwart Trump's pledge to secure the border. It's personal with them and they are putting their petty ***** desire to "get" Trump ahead of any duty to our country. Trump is doing whatever he can to fulfill his sworn duty. We had 144,000 illegal aliens sneak across our border in May and you want him to imitate Nero. You're being really disingenuous with this thread. That's why Chef thought it was started by Tibs. You asked if tariffs were the right approach, but you keep coming back to argue illegal immigration. Trump got to claim a public victory using his most blunt weapon. What is he going to do when Mexico doesn't live up to its side of the deal? Will he look to blow up a ratified trade agreement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 No, he will simply lie; and B-Man and third will say he isn't lying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 37 minutes ago, GG said: Which Donald Trump is that, the one who lost the majority of his real estate and casino empire and managed to get fired from a public company that bore his name? That brilliant strategist? This is the Donald Trump that everyone who's known him for 4 decades is afraid of. The Donald has always played one card, the doomsday card. Eventually, his counterparts call his bluff and always when he's resorted to that, he lost bigly. Trump can certainly be criticized for a variety of things but on this issue, illegal immigration, he's the only adult in the room. People may not like his style or his tactics but It's a no-brainer that we need to once and for all stop the flow of people entering or staying in the country outside of our legal immigration process. It's ridiculous that this has gone on for so long. Decades. Trump has exposed the political opposition (including some Republicans) as unwilling to address the problem. Frankly the position of Democrats and again some Republicans is both outrageous and embarrassing. As for Trump not achieving anything new with his Tariff threat, B.S. Mexico did agree a couple months ago to some changes and didn't implement them to Trump's satisfaction hence the tariff threat which absolutely brought Mexico to the bargaining table. Meanwhile Trump's political opposition which is in a position to make changes to laws that can make a difference continue to sit on their hands and lob criticism at Trump. They're also in a position to support and contribute to diplomatic efforts which are also needed and instead sit on the sidelines. This, the immigration issue, more than almost anything else puts on full display the total dis-function in Washington and the party over country practices. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted June 10, 2019 Author Share Posted June 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, GG said: You're being really disingenuous with this thread. That's why Chef thought it was started by Tibs. You asked if tariffs were the right approach, but you keep coming back to argue illegal immigration. Trump got to claim a public victory using his most blunt weapon. What is he going to do when Mexico doesn't live up to its side of the deal? Will he look to blow up a ratified trade agreement? Illegal immigration is at the heart of the matter. We have a crisis at the border and Mexico was facilitating it, not trying to alleviate it. Someone had to do something. Our do-nothing Congress refused to help due to political reasons. Again, someone had to do something and Trump used whatever he had to try to live up to his sworn duty. I guess DC just can't fathom a president that does things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 9 minutes ago, keepthefaith said: Trump can certainly be criticized for a variety of things but on this issue, illegal immigration, he's the only adult in the room. People may not like his style or his tactics but It's a no-brainer that we need to once and for all stop the flow of people entering or staying in the country outside of our legal immigration process. It's ridiculous that this has gone on for so long. Decades. Trump has exposed the political opposition (including some Republicans) as unwilling to address the problem. Frankly the position of Democrats and again some Republicans is both outrageous and embarrassing. As for Trump not achieving anything new with his Tariff threat, B.S. Mexico did agree a couple months ago to some changes and didn't implement them to Trump's satisfaction hence the tariff threat which absolutely brought Mexico to the bargaining table. Meanwhile Trump's political opposition which is in a position to make changes to laws that can make a difference continue to sit on their hands and lob criticism at Trump. They're also in a position to support and contribute to diplomatic efforts which are also needed and instead sit on the sidelines. This, the immigration issue, more than almost anything else puts on full display the total dis-function in Washington and the party over country practices. What should be done with desperately poor, oppressed, frightened people who present themselves at the border for asylum? Democrats are saying we need more judges and people in the system to handle the increased numbers, but Trump just wants to scare them away. These people are not a threat to the country 3 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said: Illegal immigration is at the heart of the matter. We have a crisis at the border and Mexico was facilitating it, not trying to alleviate it. Someone had to do something. Our do-nothing Congress refused to help due to political reasons. Again, someone had to do something and Trump used whatever he had to try to live up to his sworn duty. I guess DC just can't fathom a president that does things. No! That is not what is going on. And on Trump lying: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-08/mexico-never-agreed-to-farm-deal-with-u-s-contradicting-trump Right out of thin air! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 21 minutes ago, GG said: You're being really disingenuous with this thread. That's why Chef thought it was started by Tibs. You asked if tariffs were the right approach, but you keep coming back to argue illegal immigration. Trump got to claim a public victory using his most blunt weapon. What is he going to do when Mexico doesn't live up to its side of the deal? Will he look to blow up a ratified trade agreement? Do you believe there’s a functional difference between Trump’s bluffs as a business man and Trump’s bluffs as the executive of the USA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 5 minutes ago, keepthefaith said: Trump can certainly be criticized for a variety of things but on this issue, illegal immigration, he's the only adult in the room. People may not like his style or his tactics but It's a no-brainer that we need to once and for all stop the flow of people entering or staying in the country outside of our legal immigration process. It's ridiculous that this has gone on for so long. Decades. Trump has exposed the political opposition (including some Republicans) as unwilling to address the problem. Frankly the position of Democrats and again some Republicans is both outrageous and embarrassing. As for Trump not achieving anything new with his Tariff threat, B.S. Mexico did agree a couple months ago to some changes and didn't implement them to Trump's satisfaction hence the tariff threat which absolutely brought Mexico to the bargaining table. Meanwhile Trump's political opposition which is in a position to make changes to laws that can make a difference continue to sit on their hands and lob criticism at Trump. They're also in a position to support and contribute to diplomatic efforts which are also needed and instead sit on the sidelines. This, the immigration issue, more than almost anything else puts on full display the total dis-function in Washington and the party over country practices. At least we agree that the solution has to involve the legislative process. But do you think that Trump's actions get us anywhere closer to a solution? If anything, he's given Dems another reason to stonewall because they can now sit back and watch how Mexico deals with the situation, and they wait Trump out. To them, 2 or 6 doesn't make any difference. Meanwhile, trump will continue to jump from one self-inflicted crisis to another. To me this was a massive strategic mistake by Trump because now he's thrown the entire US economy into his personal battle, and there doesn't seem to be much support for this in the board rooms. He's on the verge of repeating Obama's mistake by taking US corporations for granted in thinking they will do his bidding. They will not and are already preparing contingency plans for additional costs that his trade spats are causing. These things don't manifest immediately, but a smart man would be concerned that going down this path could cause increasing economic pains about 12-18 months from now. Somebody smart enough can point out the importance of that calendar to him. In the meantime, I'd be following large purchases of sea going vessels south of the border, because you shouldn't be surprised Trump suddenly asking for additional $10 billion in Coast Guard funding. 19 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said: Do you believe there’s a functional difference between Trump’s bluffs as a business man and Trump’s bluffs as the executive of the USA? I do not. 30 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said: Illegal immigration is at the heart of the matter. We have a crisis at the border and Mexico was facilitating it, not trying to alleviate it. Someone had to do something. Our do-nothing Congress refused to help due to political reasons. Again, someone had to do something and Trump used whatever he had to try to live up to his sworn duty. I guess DC just can't fathom a president that does things. Again, different topics. You asked if using tariffs is a good tool. It is not, because once he employed the tariff threat, he dragged almost the entirety of the US economy in his battle. He got a very small short term win at the expense of not being able to use that tool when it may matter more down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 18 minutes ago, GG said: there doesn't seem to be much support for this in the board rooms. If there's not support for this in the board rooms, then I'm all the more in favor of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Tiberius said: What should be done with desperately poor, oppressed, frightened people who present themselves at the border for asylum? Democrats are saying we need more judges and people in the system to handle the increased numbers, but Trump just wants to scare them away. Hire a string quartet to play for them? The vast majority of them don't meet the legal definition for asylum claims if they're being honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 17 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said: If there's not support for this in the board rooms, then I'm all the more in favor of it. corporations are always bad, until they are good. it's the American way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted June 10, 2019 Author Share Posted June 10, 2019 29 minutes ago, GG said: Again, different topics. You asked if using tariffs is a good tool. It is not, because once he employed the tariff threat, he dragged almost the entirety of the US economy in his battle. He got a very small short term win at the expense of not being able to use that tool when it may matter more down the road. Yes, I asked if using tariffs was a good tool. That was to promote discussion. I am of the opinion that we had/have a crisis at the border, a real emergency. Our do-nothing congress is doing what they do best---nothing. Trump had/has limited tools. While tariffs may not be the best tool, it was all he had left in his toolbox. What would you have done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 1 minute ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: corporations are always bad, until they are good. it's the American way. Question: Is the elected government of the United States in existence to serve the needs of corporations or the electorate? I argue that right now they service the needs of corporations over the average voter, and that's the problem that most needs fixing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said: Question: Is the elected government of the United States in existence to serve the needs of corporations or the electorate? I argue that right now they service the needs of corporations over the average voter, and that's the problem that most needs fixing. I think corporations are part of the fabric of our democracy, and should have a seat at the table. We all know they do, so let's move on. I think the corporation exists to thrive and survive, and that certainly presents challenges that are not in the best interest of the average voter. On the other hand, I think government acts as a corporation at times, existing egocentrically with little regard for the impact on the average voter. The difference is that corporations like AT&T or GE can, and often do, fade away. Government, on the other hand, does not. Of the two, I think the greater threat is not AT&T, though i understand your perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 39 minutes ago, GG said: To me this was a massive strategic mistake by Trump because now he's thrown the entire US economy into his personal battle, and there doesn't seem to be much support for this in the board rooms. He's on the verge of repeating Obama's mistake by taking US corporations for granted in thinking they will do his bidding. They will not and are already preparing contingency plans for additional costs that his trade spats are causing. These things don't manifest immediately, but a smart man would be concerned that going down this path could cause increasing economic pains about 12-18 months from now. Somebody smart enough can point out the importance of that calendar to him. In the meantime, I'd be following large purchases of sea going vessels south of the border, because you shouldn't be surprised Trump suddenly asking for additional $10 billion in Coast Guard funding. I I think Trump's calculus was/is that Mexico would bow to the tariff threat. They did. Trump's end game isn't to deploy tariffs long term in any of the situations in which he's used them or threatened them. He has said so. He uses it as a stick. In this situation with Mexico regarding immigration/migration I'd rather he used other tactics than tariffs. Problem is, most would require Congressional input and he's getting no cooperation to fix the problem. Personally I don't like the tariffs being his go-to weapon for the border fight as that can disrupt many supply chains. His proposal of border law/security changes and merit based immigration in exchange for "dreamer" path to citizenship seems reasonable. Democrats during Obama years crowed about citizenship for dreamers but when faced with the choice now of getting that along with a border fix they are MIA. Very telling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 is that the 1,000,000th massive strategic mistake of the Trump Admin so far blow it our your ass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted June 10, 2019 Author Share Posted June 10, 2019 7 minutes ago, keepthefaith said: I think Trump's calculus was/is that Mexico would bow to the tariff threat. They did. Trump's end game isn't to deploy tariffs long term in any of the situations in which he's used them or threatened them. He has said so. He uses it as a stick. In this situation with Mexico regarding immigration/migration I'd rather he used other tactics than tariffs. Problem is, most would require Congressional input and he's getting no cooperation to fix the problem. Personally I don't like the tariffs being his go-to weapon for the border fight as that can disrupt many supply chains. His proposal of border law/security changes and merit based immigration in exchange for "dreamer" path to citizenship seems reasonable. Democrats during Obama years crowed about citizenship for dreamers but when faced with the choice now of getting that along with a border fix they are MIA. Very telling. It's the issue that they want. They won't work for a comprehensive solution as long as they can blame no solution for the Dreamers on the right. In other words, they don't giveashit about the Dreamers, just what the issue can do for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gun Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Tiberius said: What should be done with desperately poor, oppressed, frightened people who present themselves at the border for asylum? Democrats are saying we need more judges and people in the system to handle the increased numbers, but Trump just wants to scare them away. These people are not a threat to the country And if you had 100 of these people knock on your door at 1am what would you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 1 minute ago, pop gun said: And if you had 100 of these people knock on your door at 1am what would you do? What does that have to do with migrants seeking asylum? Answer: nothing. Zero. Totally a false equivalency, 1 am or not! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 12 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said: It's the issue that they want. They won't work for a comprehensive solution as long as they can blame no solution for the Dreamers on the right. In other words, they don't giveashit about the Dreamers, just what the issue can do for them. Yeah, it's very telling as mentioned. Party over country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 19 minutes ago, pop gun said: And if you had 100 of these people knock on your door at 1am what would you do? treat it like any other fleet that just came in? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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