Pit Bull Terriers: Should we require background checks and licensing?

[BillsFanM.D.]

2 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

Your passion is not surprising to me.  Other pit bull owners will eventually come to this thread with similar passion.  I, for one, will not judge; you've had a pit bull for a decade with no problems.  That is awesome.

 

Totally off topic and not a commentary on these challenging topic(s) but......I read the bolded line and then glanced over at your avatar.  I laughed pretty good at that point.  ?

 

Carry on.  

[GoBills808]

8 minutes ago, Gray Beard said:

When I go to a humane society web site and look at the available dogs, almost all of them look like they are some sort of pit bull.  This tells me that people are getting them, realizing they are too hard to handle, then getting rid of them.  

 

Or maybe it tells you that people who go for pit bulls are often bad owners.

[Augie]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

 

Or maybe it tells you that people who go for pit bulls are often bad owners.

........or sometimes both? 

 

It’s a tough issue, but I lean towards safety. 

[Gugny]

I think one measure that needs to be taken is a serious crackdown on breeding.  Puppy mills are obviously horrible.  But these people who get a male and female and just keep making them churn out litters ..... that's bad on a lot of levels.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Augie said:

........or sometimes both? 

 

It’s a tough issue, but I lean towards safety. 

 

If there are any geneticists in the audience we could get a better answer, but I have a hard time believing any domesticated species bred and cross bred as intensively as dogs have been retain within certain breeds a large enough variant to account for the kind of behavioral traits they're accused of having. Bad owners seem like the way more likely answer imo.

 

Dogs are a human invention. We've been manipulating their genetics for thousands of years to our mutual benefits...'pit bulls' are just another relatively modern crossbreed, it doesn't stand to reason that they would be particularly aggressive toward humans. In fact the species most likely to bite humans according to this study https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/LiteratureReviews/Pages/The-Role-of-Breed-in-Dog-Bite-Risk-and-Prevention.aspx were the small/toy breeds. My take on dangerous pit bulls (or any such breed/crossbreed so characterized) is stigmatization based on bad owners, media coverage, and the popularity of the breed at any given time ie how many of them are being raised (more dogs of one sort=more bites proportionally)

[BringBackFergy]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

 

If there are any geneticists in the audience we could get a better answer, but I have a hard time believing any domesticated species bred and cross bred as intensively as dogs have been retain within certain breeds a large enough variant to account for the kind of behavioral traits they're accused of having. Bad owners seem like the way more likely answer imo.

 

Dogs are a human invention. We've been manipulating their genetics for thousands of years to our mutual benefits...'pit bulls' are just another relatively modern crossbreed, it doesn't stand to reason that they would be particularly aggressive toward humans. In fact the species most likely to bite humans according to this study https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/LiteratureReviews/Pages/The-Role-of-Breed-in-Dog-Bite-Risk-and-Prevention.aspx were the small/toy breeds. My take on dangerous pit bulls (or any such breed/crossbreed so characterized) is stigmatization based on bad owners, media coverage, and the popularity of the breed at any given time ie how many of them are being raised (more dogs of one sort=more bites proportionally)

I love ya’ GoBills but I have to distinguish the small toy breeds from the PB’s I’m referring to. I said it above and stand by it - there are daschunds, toy poodles and Collies (even Rotts) that bite someone and they walk home with a puncture hole and some bleeding. Pit Bulls go the extra mile and tear flesh, shake their heads and take people down to inflict vicious harm.  It’s not trained (See the story above where young woman was mauled in the woods. Not just a simple bite or two...but death). Pretty rare to hear of a toy poodle doing that to a woman. Even if I owned two of them, I’d drop kick them into the hedgerow. Pit Bulls may be calm and docile at home, but when interacting outside the home with others, if they strike it’s tough to stop them (from what I read and heard ). 

[RaoulDuke79]

Well....any idiot can have a kid without having to exhibit any type of competency, so I guess until that changes, I'd have a hard time saying they need to meet some standard to have a dog.

Edited June 5, 2019 by RaoulDuke79

[RaoulDuke79]

4 hours ago, T&C said:

I'm the same man... really don't like being around them either, no matter of "oh he's a big baby" what an owner says. Give me a black lab all day long. I hate those little teacup style dogs too... don't really care what Mimi is wearing or did today or yesterday or ever.

We're dog sitting my in-laws tea cup chihuahua while they are on vacation. It may weight 6 or 7 lbs. It was sitting next to me on the recliner half wrapped in a blanket and my cat climbs up and literally sits on it like it wasn't there. The cat weighs 20+, so there was basically no part of the dog visible. Thing thing never shuts up when we visit them, but my puppy wont leave it alone and I think it's in a perpetual state of shock.

[BringBackFergy]

7 minutes ago, RaoulDuke79 said:

Well....any idiot can have a kid without having to exhibit any type of competency, so I guess until that changes, I'd have a hard time saying the need to meet some standard to have a dog.

Tough call. This type of dog (if you read the articles above) should require some kind of vetting process. 

1 minute ago, RaoulDuke79 said:

We're dog sitting my in-laws tea cup chihuahua while they are on vacation. It may weight 6 or 7 lbs. It was sitting next to me on the recliner half wrapped in a blanket and my cat climbs up and literally sits on it like it wasn't there. The cat weighs 20+, so there was basically no part of the dog visible. Thing thing never shuts up when we visit them, but my puppy wont leave it alone and I think it's in a perpetual state of shock.

Like I said above, if a chihuahua bites me or my kids, it’s one bite and that dog goes out the door. A Pit Bull (or TWO)...not so much. 

[Augie]

2 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

Tough call. This type of dog (if you read the articles above) should require some kind of vetting process. 

Like I said above, if a chihuahua bites me or my kids, it’s one bite and that dog goes out the door. A Pit Bull (or TWO)...not so much. 

 

A pet velociraptor is not something I want in the neighborhood, despite how sweet he might be and how much you might love it. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

6 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

This isn't the thread to discuss that.  Out of respect for the OP, the topic should remain pit bulls ... which has nothing to do with firearms.

The OP is a troublemaker.  But, I full support him... Think I will buy him some 3 Floyds. I like troublemakers.

Oh... I better tag this so I get credit for sucking up:

 

@BringBackFergy

[NoSaint]

9 hours ago, Gugny said:

This is a tough, controversial, subject.

 

I know that many people have owned pit bulls and have never had problems with them.

 

I also know that in nearly every pit bull attack on a human that I read, a common comment is, "we've had the dog for years and it's always been so sweet."

 

It is my opinion that the aggression/viciousness is "hardwired," into this breed.  It may be a recessive trait that can be suppressed, but it is always there.  And the unpredictability of when it will show is what's scariest.  I've read about multiple "otherwise sweet," pit bulls attacking their owners. 

 

I am personally scared to death of them.  For that reason, I won't go near them, as I fear that they'll pick up on my fear.

 

I don't think the breeding of pit bulls should continue. 

 

People can say, "it's the owners who make them mean," but the statistics don't tell that story at all.

 

So a few gut reactions 

 

the killer next door was always a quiet neighbor, the gang member in the drug war is often described as getting ready to go back to school etc... point being, people often err on the side of positivity when you put a mic in front of them about someone they know going off the rails

 

i do think that the differential in volume of attacks is in part perception due to a combo of eager coverage, terrible breed ID (so many breeds get lumped in by news) and the fact that a golden or such nips a 3 year old and you get a cut or two but a Pitt on the same level of aggression can wreck someone.

 

ive owned one that was a great dog and trust it as much if not more than any dog I’ve had.... but I see them at the dog park and I do go the other way as all it takes is catching the wrong one once and the damage is huge

7 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

This isn't the thread to discuss that.  Out of respect for the OP, the topic should remain pit bulls ... which has nothing to do with firearms.

 

I almost used the analogy to “assault style weapons” being subject to similar reporting errors (a million types lumped, makes for a good headline) and the devastation possible in the wrong hands compared to a chihuahua/bb gun. 

[Kevbeau]

I’m no expert but here’s my experience:

 

I’ve had/have three pit (mixes...as most are.) All have been sweet, happy dogs. I have acerage so we’ve always had some sort of motley pack to keep us company usually made up of castaways and roadside acquisitions. I’ve broken up enough dog fights or called dogs off a scent to know that pit breeds have more of a switch that’s hard to interrupt compared to other breeds we’ve had. Once that switch flips...it’s on 100%. Once you get the dog structured....you can interrupt that switch. 

 

Most dogs require structure and purpose and most don’t receive that. Lump the whole dbag attitude and dog fighting issue and it creates a recipe for issue. As others have alotted a chihuahua that doesn’t get that is annoying but a larger breed can be deadly. 

 

Having said all that, the first pit I had spoiled me. She was the easiest dog I’ve ever had. Loved everything. I was naive but kids would dress her up, play with her in the pool...never worries. The second would get triggered by other alpha dogs...learned a lot about canine body language...but he loved people... Third I found later in her life...she’s the beta in our house and respects dog hierarchies but getting her comfortable with new people can be difficult. She goes super submissive which Could be a sign of past abuse, so we limit her interaction to familiar people, gradually introduced.

 

So...long story short, dogs aren’t a one size fits all, every dog even within a breed has their own disposition. My guess in most of the stories referenced, the dog had previously exhibited some sort of indicative behavior....whether it be towards other dogs, cats, squirrels, the owners...whatever. It’s up to the owner to recognize and either correct, avoid, or give up the animal. 

 

I don’t take my dogs to dog parks (they’re a horrible idea), I don’t take them to other people’s houses, they always hike on tether off property...and when I have people over after seeing everyone come in, they all get their own space somewhere else. This is regardless of breed. Nothing would probably happen but the downside isn’t worth it.

 

apologies for the diatribe... have tomorrow off....tipped a few and was hiking with the dogs tonight ?

Edited June 5, 2019 by Kevbeau

[Chandler#81]

15 hours ago, Gugny said:

This is a tough, controversial, subject.

 

I know that many people have owned pit bulls and have never had problems with them.

 

I also know that in nearly every pit bull attack on a human that I read, a common comment is, "we've had the dog for years and it's always been so sweet."

 

It is my opinion that the aggression/viciousness is "hardwired," into this breed.  It may be a recessive trait that can be suppressed, but it is always there.  And the unpredictability of when it will show is what's scariest.  I've read about multiple "otherwise sweet," pit bulls attacking their owners. 

 

I am personally scared to death of them.  For that reason, I won't go near them, as I fear that they'll pick up on my fear.

 

I don't think the breeding of pit bulls should continue. 

 

People can say, "it's the owners who make them mean," but the statistics don't tell that story at all.

Respectfully disagree, somewhat. Given there are only 3 “original” dogs left on earth (Wolf, Coyote & Hyena), every breed has hardwired aggressiveness. It only varies on 2 specifics, size and jaw strength. Rottweilers are the strongest at 328 pounds of bite pressure ?, German Shepherds 2nd @ 238 lbs bp & Pits 3rd @ 235. I also feared Pittys until my daughter got 2 of them, one from the pound. They are both fabulous, well trained, loving family pets. Grandkids get rough & tumble with them frequently with never an incident. Schnauzers are unpredictable little Pricks -much like yourself. They bite all the time -and they mean to. They just don’t hurt -much. By these measures, Rottys should be illegal. Certainly far and away the most lethal.

 

I guess what I’m trying to say is it’s the human input (pun intended) that determines an animals’ aggression. -much like yourself.?

[Blokestradamus]

I don't think that it's a bad idea to require a background check in order to adopt a pit. In fact, I think it should be expanded to all pet adoptions as we have a big problem here with the mistreatment of animals. Alas, organisations like the RSPCA are charities so they don't have much scope to do anything until the laws/funding change.

 

My grandparents had a pit cross-breed when I was a kid, me and my sister never had any issues with her. However, I find myself wary of pitbulls. I live in an area that does have some undesirable types that use them as a status symbol and you can see from the way they control them that they've taught them to be a form of protection. Whether pitbulls have more of a propensity toward violence or not, I don't know. I just don't trust the dickheads that own them.

 

I wouldn't be in a rush to adopt one myself and I'd certainly think twice about letting my future kids play with one. There's enough anecdotal evidence to suggest a risk and I wouldn't forgive myself if something horrific happened.

[May Day 10]

Count me in as someone who has an acquaintance whose face was literally ripped off while watching a movie at a friend's house with a "loving" family pet.  Scratched the dog's ears the wrong way or whatever.  Numerous reconstructive surgeries and disfigurement.

Edited June 5, 2019 by May Day 10

[BringBackFergy]

1 hour ago, Chandler#81 said:

Respectfully disagree, somewhat. Given there are only 3 “original” dogs left on earth (Wolf, Coyote & Hyena), every breed has hardwired aggressiveness. It only varies on 2 specifics, size and jaw strength. Rottweilers are the strongest at 328 pounds of bite pressure ?, German Shepherds 2nd @ 238 lbs bp & Pits 3rd @ 235. I also feared Pittys until my daughter got 2 of them, one from the pound. They are both fabulous, well trained, loving family pets. Grandkids get rough & tumble with them frequently with never an incident. Schnauzers are unpredictable little Pricks -much like yourself. They bite all the time -and they mean to. They just don’t hurt -much. By these measures, Rottys should be illegal. Certainly far and away the most lethal.

 

I guess what I’m trying to say is it’s the human input (pun intended) that determines an animals’ aggression. -much like yourself.?

Thanks for that Chandler. I can appreciate your take on this because, as you said, @Gugny nips at our heels all the time. Seriously - I’ve seen a lot of stats on jaw pressure etc., but not nearly as many (any?) stories of people/children being “mauled to death” or taken down and unable to stop ripping/tearing of a German Shepherd or Rott. Sure those big dogs will bite when provoked and you’ll suffer a large puncture wound or loss of flesh, but haven’t heard of those breeds (or Chihuahua, Labs, Goldens,   Poodles, Schnauzers, etc) taking people down and continuing the attack after the one bite. That’s what leads many of us to believe the Pit Bull breed has a hair trigger that leads them to not only “bite once” but take their target down and finish the job. It seems in the above news stories, they don’t know when to stop and are too vicious for others to come in and help the victim during such an attack. 

 

I’m glad your daughter has two good Pits. As with anything, these stories are exceptions to the rule. 

8 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

The OP is a troublemaker.  But, I full support him... Think I will buy him some 3 Floyds. I like troublemakers.

Oh... I better tag this so I get credit for sucking up:

 

@BringBackFergy

You could use a PB or two on the Wall. Keep those bass boaters in line!!

[ExiledInIllinois]

1 hour ago, BringBackFergy said:

Thanks for that Chandler. I can appreciate your take on this because, as you said, @Gugny nips at our heels all the time. Seriously - I’ve seen a lot of stats on jaw pressure etc., but not nearly as many (any?) stories of people/children being “mauled to death” or taken down and unable to stop ripping/tearing of a German Shepherd or Rott. Sure those big dogs will bite when provoked and you’ll suffer a large puncture wound or loss of flesh, but haven’t heard of those breeds (or Chihuahua, Labs, Goldens,   Poodles, Schnauzers, etc) taking people down and continuing the attack after the one bite. That’s what leads many of us to believe the Pit Bull breed has a hair trigger that leads them to not only “bite once” but take their target down and finish the job. It seems in the above news stories, they don’t know when to stop and are too vicious for others to come in and help the victim during such an attack. 

 

I’m glad your daughter has two good Pits. As with anything, these stories are exceptions to the rule. 

You could use a PB or two on the Wall. Keep those bass boaters in line!!

And the geese!!!!

[BringBackFergy]

25 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

And the geese!!!!

Oh hell yeah....the Geese have been polluting our waters (and docks, beaches, lawns and swimming floats) for generations. Pit Bulls should be trained to seek and destroy those Canadian pests!!!

[ExiledInIllinois]

26 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said:

Oh hell yeah....the Geese have been polluting our waters (and docks, beaches, lawns and swimming floats) for generations. Pit Bulls should be trained to seek and destroy those Canadian pests!!!

Actually, the Downtown lock @ Chicago Harbor has a dog.  They loan her from Tulsa District for the summer.  "Ellie", an Australian shepherd I believe.  She works the wall chasing  geese away.  Now that L.Michigan is high water and Dime Pier (Dime Pier is the old pier/pilings between Navy Pier & Chicago Harbor Lock) is submerged, the place where they spray *seagull pheromones in order to keep the seagulls from bothering tourists on Navy Pier. Without a place for the seagulls to hang out, Ellie will be chasing seagulls too!

 

 

[*Little known fact, if you go to Navy Pier, why seagulls don't divebomb you, your food, etc... Unlike places like say Erie Basin Marina in Buffalo.]