North Buffalo Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 Yeh but as a fan if that is what they think can generate revenue in Buffalo, I think they are over estimating the market. Jests are walking back their psls because of how many folks gave up their seats... NFL may have reached a tipping point where the revenue has been maximized. Viewership declines lately, over advertising I think is hurting the league. That can change and so can the Buffalo market... but now imo is not the time to make huge changes, especially in a small market. It is Pegulas choice of course, but changing the current scene may have economic consequences that may not be able to overcome. 8 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said: None of this Stadium talk has anything to do with who you or I want to attend games. It’s based on who the Pegulas and their brain trust decide is their target market to increase the team’s revenues. PSLs have that effect.
Boatdrinks Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 9 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said: There's already enough parity in the league, at least let the better teams advance more. Not really. As much as everything the league does is set up to achieve parity and prevent a Patriots type thing from happening, we are still mired in it. Actually to the point of mind- numbing sameness and boredom. The better teams don’t always get the bye; those in weaker divisions often end up with them. The better rested teams often advance. Bye weeks don’t really assure that the best teams move on.
major Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 Old roger probably saw the crowds at the raptors nba finals game and decided to put pressure on us to build or else. Roger is a snake. He should be held accountable for concussion coverup
Boatdrinks Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, North Buffalo said: Yeh but as a fan if that is what they think can generate revenue in Buffalo, I think they are over estimating the market. Jests are walking back their psls because of how many folks gave up their seats... NFL may have reached a tipping point where the revenue has been maximized. Viewership declines lately, over advertising I think is hurting the league. That can change and so can the Buffalo market... but now imo is not the time to make huge changes, especially in a small market. It is Pegulas choice of course, but changing the current scene may have economic consequences that may not be able to overcome. PSLs have that effect. Viewership rebounded last year and the top rated tv programs in any given week are usually NFL games. The NYJ are the stepchild to the Giants in that market and that’s always how it’s been. As for the Pegulas, they are doing a lot of research and studies into what the market can bear and what improvements are necessary to appeal to the fan willing to spend more. Edited June 4, 2019 by Boatdrinks
Kirby Jackson Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 This thread has inevitably triggered some. This topic scares people. People worry that the team will move. People worry that they’ll be priced out. People worry that tailgating will disappear. Etc, etc, etc, This situation has been inevitable for years. The league is evolving and the Bills must do the same. We don’t need to fear what’s next. Different doesn’t mean worse. The Pegula’s have built some first-class facilities and I’d expect this to be the same. This isn’t something that we can prevent (even if that’s what some want). Let’s embrace it and enjoy the future! 3 1 1
JerseyBills Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 5 hours ago, YoloinOhio said: Same temp in Cleveland today Ya I was wearing a long sleeve here in NYC today , it was in the 50s this a.m and windy.
Kirby Jackson Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 1 hour ago, North Buffalo said: Yeh but as a fan if that is what they think can generate revenue in Buffalo, I think they are over estimating the market. Jests are walking back their psls because of how many folks gave up their seats... NFL may have reached a tipping point where the revenue has been maximized. Viewership declines lately, over advertising I think is hurting the league. That can change and so can the Buffalo market... but now imo is not the time to make huge changes, especially in a small market. It is Pegulas choice of course, but changing the current scene may have economic consequences that may not be able to overcome. PSLs have that effect. You are underestimating their knowledge of the market. The Bills know EXACTLY what the market can handle. They’ve been gathering that data for years. The new stadium will have a LOT more revenue streams. It’s not just PSLs and tickets 10x more expensive. They aren’t stupid. They are however the lowest revenue team in the league. People foolishly say, “we will never be able to support Jerry World.” Of course not!! That’s not the plan!! I never hear anyone saying though “we can never be the Jacksonville Jaguars!!” They are 25th. That’s what the Bills are trying to do. That’s roughly $30M more a year. If you don’t believe that the Bills can squeeze another $3M a game in revenue out of the market I don’t know what to tell you. There are a TON and ways to do that and a price increase is a tiny piece. 2 2
BigDingus Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 7 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said: that part is certainly true, which to me is why I like the byes as the better teams win more. This is part of the reason I'd welcome a new stadium. Bills fans are loud, but the acoustics at the stadium don't match those of others I've been to. When I went to the Bills vs Texans game in Houston this past season, there were far less people in attendance than the past couple games I went to in Buffalo, yet the noise level was so much higher! And are Texans fans known for being as diehard & wild as Bills fans? Not by a longshot. Having that dome, and the stadium itself be built around maximizing the noise level (and sight lines) provides a pretty strong home field advantage. I'd love to see what a smaller, but more condensed group of Bills fans could pull off on a Sunday in a domed home stadium.
RiotAct Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 9 minutes ago, BigDingus said: This is part of the reason I'd welcome a new stadium. Bills fans are loud, but the acoustics at the stadium don't match those of others I've been to. When I went to the Bills vs Texans game in Houston this past season, there were far less people in attendance than the past couple games I went to in Buffalo, yet the noise level was so much higher! And are Texans fans known for being as diehard & wild as Bills fans? Not by a longshot. Having that dome, and the stadium itself be built around maximizing the noise level (and sight lines) provides a pretty strong home field advantage. I'd love to see what a smaller, but more condensed group of Bills fans could pull off on a Sunday in a domed home stadium. that is the one thing that I would really enjoy about a new stadium if it ever comes to pass.... assuming the non cheering, “Chet and Muffys” from East Amherst* don’t make up 60% of the crowd at the new stadium because of sky-high ticket prices. * : nothing against East Amherst
Drunken Pygmy Goat Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 (edited) IMO, a refurbished New Era Field is the "same" as a "new" stadium, in principle. Goodell and the league don't necessarily want a new stadium, they just want a stadium with more revenue. Just spitting thoughts here, but I've done a TON of research on the matter in several aspects, ever since stadium talks arose after the Bills were purchased from RWJ. Long post if you care to read... Away teams get a cut of ticket sales, and with a better stadium, the Bills can facilitate charging more money for better amenities. Granted, for the most part, Bills fans don't care for all kinds of bells and whistles, but upgrades would be welcomed. That, and I think the majority of Bills fans want the Bills to stay in OP. Goodell gets a ton of flack, but IMO, he has done a good job as commissioner. That said, there are always agendas. His job is to "cater" to the the owners, and maximize league revenue. Since becoming commissioner, league revenue has increased greatly and annually, and currently is around $14 billion. Without looking again, it was around $6 or $7 billion when he was hireud. Inflation is a factor, but NFL revenue has far exceeded the inflation factor. When the Pegulas were voted in as owners, one of the consensuses among owners was that they would build a new stadium. But it's not necessarily a "new" stadium that the other 31 owners want. They want more contribution from the Bills to the league pie, and if Goodell's job depends on increasing leage revenue annually, then so does he. It could come in the form of a new stadium, or in the form of a refurbished stadium. The Chiefs, Bears, and Packers have all made significant alterations to their stadiums within the last 15 years that have increased revenue, by updating to current "league standards", and there's no reason why the Bills couldn't do the same. A recent study was conducted, which determined that the bones of NEF are structurally sound enough to support another 30 years of productivity. The Georgia Dome, for example, opened in 1992 and was demolished 25 years later. Granted, the dynamics between Buffalo and Atlanta economically aren't equal, but modern technology is much, much different than it was when the Georgia dome broke ground in 1989, and an open air stadium in much worse weather conditions has survived much longer than that domed building...refurbishing NEF to "league standard" can be done, and probably should be done. That's not to say a downtown/waterfront stadium couldn't be done, but the project would be much more difficult of an undertaking for several reasons. First, you have infrastructure issues that would need to be addressed, and funded. Regardless of ownership contribution toward a new stadium/dome, addressing the necessary infrastructure issues in and around the surrounding area would cost millions upon millions of dollars that would need to be spent by the state for a refurbished stadium. Goodell may have a certain agenda, but so do the politicians in Albany...IMO, it's highly unlikely that the money generated for the local and state economy from Bills games over the next 30 years will surpass what it would cost in order to provide proper infrastructure changes that would be needed. Stocks and bonds will (likely) need to be involved in order to help fund a new stadium alone, but who will pay for the surrounding infrastricure needs??? The citizens of New York, most of which, couldn't care less about the Bills, many of which, don't care about football or the NFL in general. Again, agendas come into play, and votes... Inflation, and the cost to build will be a factor. Bills fans, by and large, don't care about all the bells and whistles that make places like Jerry World so special, nor can the vast majority afford them. That's part of why there are studies being conducted currently regarding "feasibility". The Pegulas have invested a ton of their money into Buffalo, in various ways, enough to know what the current economy can facilitate, and they know what the people want and care about, and what they can afford. But as business men and women, they, too have certain agendas and preferences that they'd like to accomplish. They know and understand their position, when it comes to the league, as well as the people that support this franchise. They figured out a lot the hard way with Sabres, who they have owned for a longer period of time. But that endeavor represents their infancy within the community, and within their learning curve of the fans and the community. I can assure you that they have a pretty good grasp on things at this point, and based on that, have certain preferences and ideas of what is most logical for all parties. Their decision will be largely based on that, and results from studies being conducted now will mainly serve as reasurance to the league that they're going to do the "right thing". They know the "pulse" of the fans, and as a business, they will do what they feel is the best, long term, to accomodate that. In the end, Goodell works for them too, just as he does the other 31 owners. IMO, a big part of why Goodell makes the comments that he does is based on the fact that the current CBA will expire soon, and revisions will be made for the next CBA. It's not simply just pressure from other owners, although they, too, fully understand the ramifications of a new CBA and how that could effect the Bills' plans. A big part of the league's increased revenue has come from sponsorship, but at some point, that increase will level out or plateau a bit. Maximizing revenue will need to come in other forms, and ticket sales contributions matters. Right now, the Bills are bottom 3 in terms of league contribution in that category, and you can bet that that irks opposing teams' owners when they play at Buffalo. The current G4 program allows for a cetain amount of league funding (taken from the league pie), to be allocated to stadium project fundung. It is greater than the previous G3 program that was enacted within the previous CBA, and is different in maximum dollar amount allowed for new stadiums, and refurbished stadiums ($50 million in difference IIRC). With the current CBA set to expire in the near future, putting pressure on the Bills now (starting at the time the Pegulas bought the Bills) is important. A new CBA could mean different things regarding league funding: A. the possiblity that a revised G4 program (G5???) would allow for more cut of the league pie to be allocated for stadium projects, since revenue is increasing annually (which would piss off owners if the Bills waited for that), or B. no G4 type progtam to be included at all, making stadium projects less possible due to blow-back from local citizens and politicians, because more state funding would be necessary. Most teams already have stadiums that are in line with what the owners want, and the Bills represent a very small minority of teams that don't yet. Getting a deal in place now is important to the league and the other 31 owners because of this uncertainty. But, the state of New York has already contributed a lot of money into at least 2 projects at NEF since 2014. Building a new stadium after that fact would be a bit of a slap to the face of the politicians in Albany, even if a new stadium would be funded 100% by the Pegulas, because of the cost of surrounding infrastructure. Their agendas should be all but clear at this point: they want the Bills to stay in OP, and have handed over millions of dollars to the Bills already in order to make that point. They know whats feasible to them. Like I said, agendas...The politicians in Albany have been through these things several times before in recent history, be it money to NEF, or the new Yankees Stadium, Javits Center in NYC, etc. Keep in mind, also, that increased taxes for a new stadium, or even a refurbished NEF, may not have as great of an impact on local WNYers as many might think. Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis is a great model, IMO (all things considered, anyways). It uses tax increased dollars from things such as hotels and vehicle rentals, in and around Indianapolis (surrounding counties), in order to pay back state loaned money. Generally, those aren't things that locals have to pay for, and NF sees plenty of tourism and hotel usage... The Pegulas, Goodell and the other 31 owners, and poiliticians all have a certain agenda that their moves are based on, all of which are generally geared towards making the majority happy (and money, of course). I personally believe that refurbishing NEF would be a happy medium that would cater more to the majority. Most of us want that, it wouldn't cost as much for the Pegulas and the state, and revenue can be increased. Win for all. Edited June 4, 2019 by Drunken Pygmy Goat 4
Rochesterfan Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 11 hours ago, MJS said: Not sure I understand how a new stadium means the team will be more stable and successful. The more I think about it, the more I believe the Bills should just stay put. Throw 500 million at the current stadium for renovations and call it good. I listened to Goodell and what I hear is that he wants long term stability and viability for Buffalo and the best way to do that is via a new stadium. The new collective bargaining sessions are coming up and one of the things that the big revenue teams often look at is doing away with more and more of the revenue sharing. We always look at these sessions as players versus owners, but the owners often have their own internal wars over how to split up the money and last time the big revenue teams got to keep a larger percentage of home game revenue. I would not be surprised if the team ends up with further losses of revenue if they do not generate more for the league. In the end the TV deal covers most costs, but the extra revenue goes a long way to pay for amenities and that is what is driving Buffalo right now. They may need to increase their own sources of revenue just to help balance out things across the league. 1
Doc Brown Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 11 hours ago, eball said: Give the teams more of an ability to practice and/or scrimmage with other teams, and remove 1-2 of the preseason games. I think coaches would be fine with that and as a fan, I'd appreciate shortening the preseason. While we're at it, add two playoff teams in each conference (4 division champs, 4 wild cards) and get rid of the byes for the top two seeds. Devalues the regular season too much. The NFL has a nice middle ground between MLB and NHL/NBA when it comes to the number of playoff teams.
eball Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 13 minutes ago, Doc Brown said: Devalues the regular season too much. The NFL has a nice middle ground between MLB and NHL/NBA when it comes to the number of playoff teams. I just don’t understand this argument. Who doesn’t want more playoff games?
row_33 Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 4 hours ago, Lurker said: Sheesh. Four pages and counting. Nothing is different with the stadium situation today than yesterday, or tomorrow... I thought if Roger said something placid and nice yesterday that a new stadium would be built today 15 minutes ago, eball said: I just don’t understand this argument. Who doesn’t want more playoff games? That 6-10 vs 7-9 matchup would be killer. 1
eball Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, row_33 said: That 6-10 vs 7-9 matchup would be killer. And, that wouldn’t have happened ever.
Ol Dirty B Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 4 hours ago, North Buffalo said: So you want more muffy and chets at Bills games.. great more rich bastages not cheering. Yeh if they are going to build a new place, put it downtown, but not because Roger told Buffalo so... he need to turn in his Buffalo heritage card and screw pft People already whine about standing in the 100s. If I'm way taller I definitely will turn around and ask the person about their view. But if you got two legs, you can stand you lazy jamoche. I just want better bathrooms. Other than that, I don't see a problem with the venue. I'm not opposed to a new stadium if it's not with tax payer dollars. I have no concern about generating more revenue for billionaires in a league with an unneeded salary cap. If some don't go because of the weather, don't care about you not attending. I can understand raising prices to get the crazies jumping through tables out. I understand that. I usually take one party bus a year to the game and a lot of my friends aren't even there to watch the game. Just to drink and the party atmosphere. But I know some season ticket holders and people like me who are a bit rowdy, loud, but not crazy with the shenanigans who will never be priced out. I usually pay like 150 a ticket when I go. I only go to big games and stick to 100s. 1
Stallions Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 12 hours ago, YoloinOhio said: WE. us living in the Buffalo area, know damn well we can't afford a new, plush new stadium for an NFL team playing 8-10 REAL games a season. Just look at the median income in the area. WE are what WE are. So, the best we can hope for is that the Team Owners build a multi-purpose facility for hockey, football, indoor lacrosse, indoor soccer, major concerts etc. That's the only way they can possibly make a profit from a new building. 1
Ol Dirty B Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said: IMO, a refurbished New Era Field is the "same" as a "new" stadium, in principle. Goodell and the league don't necessarily want a new stadium, they just want a stadium with more revenue. Just spitting thoughts here, but I've done a TON of research on the matter in several aspects, ever since stadium talks arose after the Bills were purchased from RWJ. Long post if you care to read... Away teams get a cut of ticket sales, and with a better stadium, the Bills can facilitate charging more money for better amenities. Granted, for the most part, Bills fans don't care for all kinds of bells and whistles, but upgrades would be welcomed. That, and I think the majority of Bills fans want the Bills to stay in OP. Goodell gets a ton of flack, but IMO, he has done a good job as commissioner. That said, there are always agendas. His job is to "cater" to the the owners, and maximize league revenue. Since becoming commissioner, league revenue has increased greatly and annually, and currently is around $14 billion. Without looking again, it was around $6 or $7 billion when he was hireud. Inflation is a factor, but NFL revenue has far exceeded the inflation factor. When the Pegulas were voted in as owners, one of the consensuses among owners was that they would build a new stadium. But it's not necessarily a "new" stadium that the other 31 owners want. They want more contribution from the Bills to the league pie, and if Goodell's job depends on increasing leage revenue annually, then so does he. It could come in the form of a new stadium, or in the form of a refurbished stadium. The Chiefs, Bears, and Packers have all made significant alterations to their stadiums within the last 15 years that have increased revenue, by updating to current "league standards", and there's no reason why the Bills couldn't do the same. A recent study was conducted, which determined that the bones of NEF are structurally sound enough to support another 30 years of productivity. The Georgia Dome, for example, opened in 1992 and was demolished 25 years later. Granted, the dynamics between Buffalo and Atlanta economically aren't equal, but modern technology is much, much different than it was when the Georgia dome broke ground in 1989, and an open air stadium in much worse weather conditions has survived much longer than that domed building...refurbishing NEF to "league standard" can be done, and probably should be done. That's not to say a downtown/waterfront stadium couldn't be done, but the project would be much more difficult of an undertaking for several reasons. First, you have infrastructure issues that would need to be addressed, and funded. Regardless of ownership contribution toward a new stadium/dome, addressing the necessary infrastructure issues in and around the surrounding area would cost millions upon millions of dollars that would need to be spent by the state for a refurbished stadium. Goodell may have a certain agenda, but so do the politicians in Albany...IMO, it's highly unlikely that the money generated for the local and state economy from Bills games over the next 30 years will surpass what it would cost in order to provide proper infrastructure changes that would be needed. Stocks and bonds will (likely) need to be involved in order to help fund a new stadium alone, but who will pay for the surrounding infrastricure needs??? The citizens of New York, most of which, couldn't care less about the Bills, many of which, don't care about football or the NFL in general. Again, agendas come into play, and votes... Inflation, and the cost to build will be a factor. Bills fans, by and large, don't care about all the bells and whistles that make places like Jerry World so special, nor can the vast majority afford them. That's part of why there are studies being conducted currently regarding "feasibility". The Pegulas have invested a ton of their money into Buffalo, in various ways, enough to know what the current economy can facilitate, and they know what the people want and care about, and what they can afford. But as business men and women, they, too have certain agendas and preferences that they'd like to accomplish. They know and understand their position, when it comes to the league, as well as the people that support this franchise. They figured out a lot the hard way with Sabres, who they have owned for a longer period of time. But that endeavor represents their infancy within the community, and within their learning curve of the fans and the community. I can assure you that they have a pretty good grasp on things at this point, and based on that, have certain preferences and ideas of what is most logical for all parties. Their decision will be largely based on that, and results from studies being conducted now will mainly serve as reasurance to the league that they're going to do the "right thing". They know the "pulse" of the fans, and as a business, they will do what they feel is the best, long term, to accomodate that. In the end, Goodell works for them too, just as he does the other 31 owners. IMO, a big part of why Goodell makes the comments that he does is based on the fact that the current CBA will expire soon, and revisions will be made for the next CBA. It's not simply just pressure from other owners, although they, too, fully understand the ramifications of a new CBA and how that could effect the Bills' plans. A big part of the league's increased revenue has come from sponsorship, but at some point, that increase will level out or plateau a bit. Maximizing revenue will need to come in other forms, and ticket sales contributions matters. Right now, the Bills are bottom 3 in terms of league contribution in that category, and you can bet that that irks opposing teams' owners when they play at Buffalo. The current G4 program allows for a cetain amount of league funding (taken from the league pie), to be allocated to stadium project fundung. It is greater than the previous G3 program that was enacted within the previous CBA, and is different in maximum dollar amount allowed for new stadiums, and refurbished stadiums ($50 million in difference IIRC). With the current CBA set to expire in the near future, putting pressure on the Bills now (starting at the time the Pegulas bought the Bills) is important. A new CBA could mean different things regarding league funding: A. the possiblity that a revised G4 program (G5???) would allow for more cut of the league pie to be allocated for stadium projects, since revenue is increasing annually (which would piss off owners if the Bills waited for that), or B. no G4 type progtam to be included at all, making stadium projects less possible due to blow-back from local citizens and politicians, because more state funding would be necessary. Most teams already have stadiums that are in line with what the owners want, and the Bills represent a very small minority of teams that don't yet. Getting a deal in place now is important to the league and the other 31 owners because of this uncertainty. But, the state of New York has already contributed a lot of money into at least 2 projects at NEF since 2014. Building a new stadium after that fact would be a bit of a slap to the face of the politicians in Albany, even if a new stadium would be funded 100% by the Pegulas, because of the cost of surrounding infrastructure. Their agendas should be all but clear at this point: they want the Bills to stay in OP, and have handed over millions of dollars to the Bills already in order to make that point. They know whats feasible to them. Like I said, agendas...The politicians in Albany have been through these things several times before in recent history, be it money to NEF, or the new Yankees Stadium, Javits Center in NYC, etc. Keep in mind, also, that increased taxes for a new stadium, or even a refurbished NEF, may not have as great of an impact on local WNYers as many might think. Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis is a great model, IMO (all things considered, anyways). It uses tax increased dollars from things such as hotels and vehicle rentals, in and around Indianapolis (surrounding counties), in order to pay back state loaned money. Generally, those aren't things that locals have to pay for, and NF sees plenty of tourism and hotel usage... The Pegulas, Goodell and the other 31 owners, and poiliticians all have a certain agenda that their moves are based on, all of which are generally geared towards making the majority happy (and money, of course). I personally believe that refurbishing NEF would be a happy medium that would cater more to the majority. Most of us want that, it wouldn't cost as much for the Pegulas and the state, and revenue can be increased. Win for all. Great informative post, the only thing I'd disagree with is a new stadium 100% funded by the Pegulas would be taken as a slap in the face by Albany. They could easily tout that as a victory to the average person. I think most east of Syracuse have no clue about previous state investments in NEF. They spin it as they stood up to the man. Unless as you say the infrastructure is so costly and time consuming as it might be if they move downtown. Still, even then I could see that expenditure being added to a bill in a way most wouldn't notice. I honestly think downstate doesn't pay attention to anything over here. We really should take them for a walk. No one in the NYC area pays attention to up here. They're more concerned about subways and what ostacio cortez says. I love NYC and have many friends there, but they are so self involved. 1
Saxum Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 3 hours ago, RiotAct said: that is the one thing that I would really enjoy about a new stadium if it ever comes to pass.... assuming the non cheering, “Chet and Muffys” from East Amherst* don’t make up 60% of the crowd at the new stadium because of sky-high ticket prices. Of course not. The majority will probably be out of town fans of opposing teams Bills sell tickets to via partner scalpers.
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