WR techniques... is it really science?

[MakeBuffaloGreatAgain]

I was thinking about watching videos of Sammy Watkins with our Bills, and I remembered our WR coach teaching him to run low(hunched down) so DBs won't know when he is breaking his routes. All I could think of was that Sammy's greatest attribute was his speed, so by making him run unnatural was very stupid. We basically eliminated his advantage. Now I see videos of WRs being told to take at least 4 small steps to make an out cut. When a WR makes 4 steps to cut, then the DB is able to gather his feet and make extra steps to break on the route also. I have seen plenty of WRs make a fast/crisp out cut with one plant step. I would have had wet dreams as a DB in college knowing the WRs would take 4 small steps before a route break! All I needed was a small delay to make a break and jump a route, and these 4 small steps that are taught would be a good corners dream come true.

 

Which Brings me to my next complaint... Speed outs. It is designed so WRs can get to an out route as fast as possible, but because of the bowed trajectory, they end up curving into the DBs path. A lazy route is when there are no sharp cuts, and the DB can close ground fairly easy because the WR wandered into the DBs territory. As a DB, your momentum is moving backwards in your backpedal, and you have to react when a WR cuts/breaks. No matter what, you have to fight your inertia to start moving the other direction. But when a WR rounds a cut and allows you to move your centrifugal force to the side as opposed to forward, it becomes so much easier to change directions and break on a ball. This is where I think the PATs have really excelled(god I hate them). Their route runners don't bow routes or take 4-6 steps to make a cut. They use precise one step moves with head and shoulder(not shampoo) fakes. I think someone tried to out think their predecessors and tried to find a better way to make a field cut, and ended up with a good hypotheses that doesn't work in the real world.

 

Anyways, this rant is mainly for playing against man-to-man teams. Against Zone teams, all that matters is getting to the open zone at the right time, so run like a duck if you want.

[Malazan]

You're reading way too much into things that you've heard somewhere.

[White Linen]

It's something that can be worked on to get better at.  It's a game of cat and mouse if you will with WR's and DB's.  That's why you have to work on your position endlessly and be able to read the defender to know what to do.  Very similar to offensive tackles and DE's.  I see guys use a swim or spin move and they don't know it's the wrong move based on what the offensive lineman are doing or the situation.  The swim move and spin move are easily defended if the DE hasn't perfected it, set it up or knows when to use it.  Same thing with WR's.  They just have to get better. 

[Foxx]

31 minutes ago, MakeBuffaloGreatAgain said:

... run like a duck if you want.

i see you've seen me run.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

14 minutes ago, White Linen said:

It's something that can be worked on to get better at.  It's a game of cat and mouse if you will with WR's and DB's.  That's why you have to work on your position endlessly and be able to read the defender to know what to do.  Very similar to offensive tackles and DE's.  I see guys use a swim or spin move and they don't know it's the wrong move based on what the offensive lineman are doing or the situation.  The swim move and spin move are easily defended if the DE hasn't perfected it, set it up or knows when to use it.  Same thing with WR's.  They just have to get better. 

 

...nice assessment "WL".......endlessly work to hone multiple techniques so that you can keep the defense guessing as to what's coming.....

[NewEra]

So you’re saying Zay Jones is going to get cut?

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

6 minutes ago, NewEra said:

So you’re saying Zay Jones is going to get cut?

 

...OR...maybe Benjabum can be reincarnated?............

[Mikie2times]

If you played at any level you know it boils down to deception. Void of deception it boils down to timing. I doubt anything less is being taught at the highest level. Obviously past the training god given ability, fast twitch muscles, etc.   

[Ol Dirty B]

I think they use 4 small steps because you can get a variation of routes out of those 4 steps. Otherwise every out would be jumped on, with shorter quicker steps, the route runner retains the ability to cut in any direction as well as explode out of it.

 

A cut on one foot can be crisp and quick, but I believe commits the receiver. You can't cut off you're right foot then come back left quickly off longer strides. 

Edited May 31, 2019 by Ol Dirty B

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

9 minutes ago, Ol Dirty B said:

I think they use 4 small steps because you can get a variation of routes out of those 4 steps. Otherwise every out would be jumped on, with shorter quicker steps, the route runner retains the ability to cut in any direction as well as explode out of it.

 

A cut on one foot can be crisp and quick, but I believe commits the receiver. You can't cut off you're right foot then come back left quickly off longer strides. 

 

I'm no expert, but it seems to me like if you cut off your right foot the only place you'll be going quickly is the emergency room, and not under your own power.  Maybe Zay misunderstood his coach's instructions when he encountered that high rise window in Vegas.

[JoPar_v2]

depends on the purpose behind the extra steps - if they’re because the WR is out of control at the top of his route and needs them to gather his body - that’s bad (see DK Metcalf). If they are used to mask the route and fake out the DB - obviously good. Watch Stevie Johnson. One of the most underrated route runners ever. Unorthodox as f*** but got the job done. His hands let him down; he could have been great.

[Aireskoi]

On 5/31/2019 at 4:40 PM, MakeBuffaloGreatAgain said:

...Now I see videos of WRs being told to take at least 4 small steps to make an out cut. When a WR makes 4 steps to cut, then the DB is able to gather his feet and make extra steps to break on the route also. I have seen plenty of WRs make a fast/crisp out cut with one plant step. I would have had wet dreams as a DB in college knowing the WRs would take 4 small steps before a route break! All I needed was a small delay to make a break and jump a route, and these 4 small steps that are taught would be a good corners dream come true.

 

Which Brings me to my next complaint... Speed outs. It is designed so WRs can get to an out route as fast as possible, but because of the bowed trajectory, they end up curving into the DBs path. A lazy route is when there are no sharp cuts, and the DB can close ground fairly easy because the WR wandered into the DBs territory. As a DB, your momentum is moving backwards in your backpedal, and you have to react when a WR cuts/breaks. No matter what, you have to fight your inertia to start moving the other direction. But when a WR rounds a cut and allows you to move your centrifugal force to the side as opposed to forward, it becomes so much easier to change directions and break on a ball. This is where I think the PATs have really excelled(god I hate them). Their route runners don't bow routes or take 4-6 steps to make a cut. They use precise one step moves with head and shoulder(not shampoo) fakes. I think someone tried to out think their predecessors and tried to find a better way to make a field cut, and ended up with a good hypotheses that doesn't work in the real world.

 

Anyways, this rant is mainly for playing against man-to-man teams. Against Zone teams, all that matters is getting to the open zone at the right time, so run like a duck if you want.

 

Love the thread, but I think this will take some videos and pics to make it great.  Got any examples we can check out?

 

It's about match-ups week to week and play to play.  I think a player needs to develop all the moves he can handle.  You have to study your opponent and see what works against them, but then you have to execute the different tech's.  Does an extra stutter step tie them up, or do they get picks when guys try?  There's such  variety of experience, size, and speed you'll face week to week.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2019 by Aireskoi

[Buffalo Boy]

     Hopefully they teach the science of catching the ball with your hands and continuing to hold it until the whistle blows.

Especially in the End zone.

     If we could perfect that one skill at the WR and TE positions , I feel that might make a difference?

 

[Shaw66]

This is all fun and games, but the professionals know what they're doing.  They know what routes make sense, the shape of the routes, the number of steps, all of that. Its studies in more detail than any of us has studied it.  

 

For example, what the OP says about zones is obviously wrong.  It matters a great deal what the route looks like when playing against a zone, because every defender in the zone is watching the receivers and reacting to where the receivers are going.  One receiver's movements causes the zone to shift a step or two that creates the crease another receiver takes advantage of.  

 

Coaches know the best ways to get into and out of cuts, and fans rarely know better. 

[Cripple Creek]

On 5/31/2019 at 4:40 PM, MakeBuffaloGreatAgain said:

I was thinking about watching videos of Sammy Watkins with our Bills, and I remembered our WR coach teaching him to run low(hunched down) so DBs won't know when he is breaking his routes. All I could think of was that Sammy's greatest attribute was his speed, so by making him run unnatural was very stupid. We basically eliminated his advantage. Now I see videos of WRs being told to take at least 4 small steps to make an out cut. When a WR makes 4 steps to cut, then the DB is able to gather his feet and make extra steps to break on the route also. I have seen plenty of WRs make a fast/crisp out cut with one plant step. I would have had wet dreams as a DB in college knowing the WRs would take 4 small steps before a route break! All I needed was a small delay to make a break and jump a route, and these 4 small steps that are taught would be a good corners dream come true.

 

Which Brings me to my next complaint... Speed outs. It is designed so WRs can get to an out route as fast as possible, but because of the bowed trajectory, they end up curving into the DBs path. A lazy route is when there are no sharp cuts, and the DB can close ground fairly easy because the WR wandered into the DBs territory. As a DB, your momentum is moving backwards in your backpedal, and you have to react when a WR cuts/breaks. No matter what, you have to fight your inertia to start moving the other direction. But when a WR rounds a cut and allows you to move your centrifugal force to the side as opposed to forward, it becomes so much easier to change directions and break on a ball. This is where I think the PATs have really excelled(god I hate them). Their route runners don't bow routes or take 4-6 steps to make a cut. They use precise one step moves with head and shoulder(not shampoo) fakes. I think someone tried to out think their predecessors and tried to find a better way to make a field cut, and ended up with a good hypotheses that doesn't work in the real world.

 

Anyways, this rant is mainly for playing against man-to-man teams. Against Zone teams, all that matters is getting to the open zone at the right time, so run like a duck if you want.

Well, judging WR talent is really a science, IMHO.  One of the best who frequents here is @BringBackFergy who eats/sleeps/breathes WR.  He can tell you everything you need to know about a prospect, and he starts early, traveling the peewee circuit.  If you have specific questions he welcomes PMs.

[BringBackFergy]

8 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

Well, judging WR talent is really a science, IMHO.  One of the best who frequents here is @BringBackFergy who eats/sleeps/breathes WR.  He can tell you everything you need to know about a prospect, and he starts early, traveling the peewee circuit.  If you have specific questions he welcomes PMs.

Thanks for the shout out. My days of playing the WR position are behind me (yes, I had a short three year stint with the London Monarchs and the Toronto Args back in the 90’s) but I still travel to various locations for private workouts and scouting. 

 

One attribute the OP didn’t touch upon is what we (scouts/coaches) refer to as “breakout inertia ratio” or focused speed vs controlled limb coordination. Arms and legs need to move with flexibility but also with a rigid strength that allows inertia to break past the secondary. The longer the limb when compared to shorter CB’s and faster limb extension will permit greater completions of 50/50 balls. That’s why we usually don’t just measure a WR’s fingers and hands but his toes as well. Having longer toes allows the WR candidate to grip the turf better for sharper cuts thus increasing his breakout inertia ratio and limb coordination. I’ll revisit this thread later but feel free to ask questions anytime. 

[SoCal Deek]

Or...we could just line up with two WRs stacked right behind one another and have the guy in back break off his route rubbing off the guy in front....but NO! That would be way too easy and look way too much like what Tom Brady’s been living off of for the last ten years!!

[Thurman#1]

Without seeing the story you are specifically talking about, this can't really be discussed.

 

I googled "four small steps out cut" and got nothing to do with sports. Then I added "football" and got a lot of soccer stuff. What specifically did they say? Where did you see it? We need to see the exact words to know what you're really referring to here.

 

Generally, though, yeah, route running is immensely technical and guys who are really good at it gain a real advantage over DBs.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Thurman#1

[mrags]

I just want to point out Stevie Johnson and why he was so good. I also wanted to comment that the majority of you here in this thread threw him away like a piece of garbage all because Boo-Boo, Kitty-foot Watkins. Stevie was such a good WR and you’re all stupid. 

[K-9]

My advice is to pay attention to the game within the game between WRs and CBs. Technique is all well and good, indeed it's essential, but these guys throw much of that out of the window during a game. Especially as they get to know each other over the years.