eball Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: OBJ did the same thing with the Giants. Turned out OK... Because the Giants were a great team with OBJ? I'm not saying OBJ failing to attend OTAs means he won't be successful with Cleveland. What I will say is that he is doing both himself and the team a disservice by not attending. There is a world of difference between (a) a veteran player on an established team with a stable coaching staff and (b) a player going to a new team with new coaches and teammates. If I'm a coach I don't have a problem with a player in situation (a) skipping OTAs because the credibility and chemistry are ostensibly already there. I do have a problem with a player in situation (b) skipping because an opportunity to learn the system and bond with teammates/coaches is not being taken advantage of. This is particularly true in this day and age of limited practice time. I'm certain you completely disagree with this take and think attendance at OTAs is meaningless, which is your prerogative. 1
ColoradoBills Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: OBJ did the same thing with the Giants. Turned out OK... Maybe his attitude about these things is what got him traded. 1
Mr. WEO Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 1 hour ago, eball said: Because the Giants were a great team with OBJ? I'm not saying OBJ failing to attend OTAs means he won't be successful with Cleveland. What I will say is that he is doing both himself and the team a disservice by not attending. There is a world of difference between (a) a veteran player on an established team with a stable coaching staff and (b) a player going to a new team with new coaches and teammates. If I'm a coach I don't have a problem with a player in situation (a) skipping OTAs because the credibility and chemistry are ostensibly already there. I do have a problem with a player in situation (b) skipping because an opportunity to learn the system and bond with teammates/coaches is not being taken advantage of. This is particularly true in this day and age of limited practice time. I'm certain you completely disagree with this take and think attendance at OTAs is meaningless, which is your prerogative. Yeah missing OTAs is a story we read about every May but can't remember at all by September. OBJ has been one of the most talented, prolific and dynamic WRs in the past 5 years (from day 1, by the way). But I'm sure that, after Mandatory minicamp, training camp and an entire preseason, there will be no way that a guy like OBJ will be able to pick up the complexities of the legendary "Freddy Kitchens Offense" (with all those new Todd Monken twists no doubt just installed) without having played catch with his new QB for 10 days in May. Did that sound silly? Yes, because this whole argument is silly. 42 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: Maybe his attitude about these things is what got him traded. True. And maybe every boneheaded move the Giants have made over the past 2 off-seasons has been all a mirage... 1
YoloinOhio Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said: Maybe his attitude about these things is what got him traded. Actually he attended OTAs with the giants last year. They were still horrible.
eball Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Yeah missing OTAs is a story we read about every May but can't remember at all by September. OBJ has been one of the most talented, prolific and dynamic WRs in the past 5 years (from day 1, by the way). But I'm sure that, after Mandatory minicamp, training camp and an entire preseason, there will be no way that a guy like OBJ will be able to pick up the complexities of the legendary "Freddy Kitchens Offense" (with all those new Todd Monken twists no doubt just installed) without having played catch with his new QB for 10 days in May. Did that sound silly? Yes, because this whole argument is silly. You apparently ignored the very first sentence of my second paragraph? The one that reads "I'm not saying OBJ failing to attend OTAs means he won't be successful with Cleveland?" This is not about saying OTAs are the key to OBJ's (or the Browns') success. It's about saying that OBJ is missing an opportunity to show he gives a damn, and if I was the coach I'd be a little miffed about it too. That's not a "silly" argument when people can take reasonable positions on both sides. 1
Mr. WEO Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 1 hour ago, eball said: You apparently ignored the very first sentence of my second paragraph? The one that reads "I'm not saying OBJ failing to attend OTAs means he won't be successful with Cleveland?" This is not about saying OTAs are the key to OBJ's (or the Browns') success. It's about saying that OBJ is missing an opportunity to show he gives a damn, and if I was the coach I'd be a little miffed about it too. That's not a "silly" argument when people can take reasonable positions on both sides. You also said this: "I do have a problem with a player in situation (b) skipping because an opportunity to learn the system". I thought that was silly and made it clear why. He'll show how much a damn he gives starting with the mandatory and camp. The "show your new team you give a damn" by showing up to OTAs is an even weaker argument against OBJ's no show. His team mates will be very excited to see him work in camp and preseason. May is meaningless. Freddy Kitchens has a lot more to worry about than OBJ missing May football.. So yeah, I think those are both silly arguments. And they are made every year. And then they are proven silly later in the summer/Fall.
eball Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: You also said this: "I do have a problem with a player in situation (b) skipping because an opportunity to learn the system". I thought that was silly and made it clear why. He'll show how much a damn he gives starting with the mandatory and camp. The "show your new team you give a damn" by showing up to OTAs is an even weaker argument against OBJ's no show. His team mates will be very excited to see him work in camp and preseason. May is meaningless. Freddy Kitchens has a lot more to worry about than OBJ missing May football.. So yeah, I think those are both silly arguments. And they are made every year. And then they are proven silly later in the summer/Fall. Yeah, you're just nitpicking. The bottom line -- and I don't see how anyone could disagree -- is that it's more likely the Browns and OBJ would benefit from OBJ's participation in OTAs than from him not attending.
Doc Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 1 hour ago, eball said: You apparently ignored the very first sentence of my second paragraph? The one that reads "I'm not saying OBJ failing to attend OTAs means he won't be successful with Cleveland?" This is not about saying OTAs are the key to OBJ's (or the Browns') success. It's about saying that OBJ is missing an opportunity to show he gives a damn, and if I was the coach I'd be a little miffed about it too. That's not a "silly" argument when people can take reasonable positions on both sides. Yup. It's not like these guys are being overworked during the off-season or don't know generally when OTA's will be held. And while it might not, and probably won't affect them, it's something they should attend. But hey, not our problem.
Mr. WEO Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, eball said: Yeah, you're just nitpicking. The bottom line -- and I don't see how anyone could disagree -- is that it's more likely the Browns and OBJ would benefit from OBJ's participation in OTAs than from him not attending. Others call it quoting. You didn't give me a lot to choose from. The results of the holdout will be obvious by fall. Just now, Doc said: Yup. It's not like these guys are being overworked during the off-season or don't know generally when OTA's will be held. And while it might not, and probably won't affect them, it's something they should attend. But hey, not our problem. Exactly.
ColoradoBills Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said: Actually he attended OTAs with the giants last year. They were still horrible. It was actually more sarcasm about his attitude than conjecture. IMO if the Bills traded for OBJ and he didn't bother to show up for OTAs I would not think it was a good move by him. Edited June 3, 2019 by ColoradoBills
Doc Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 7 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: It was actually more sarcasm about his attitude than conjecture. IMO if the Bills traded for OBJ and he didn't bother to show up for OTAs I would not think it was not a good move by him. Yup. I can't wait for "voluntary training camp" with the next CBA.
eball Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 29 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: The results of the holdout will be obvious by fall. No, they won't. That's why it's debatable in the first place. If OBJ is successful some will say "OTAs don't matter" but nobody knows the true value because you can't place a tangible value on "building chemistry" other than to say it's arguably better to have it than not. 2
ColoradoBills Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, Doc said: Yup. I can't wait for "voluntary training camp" with the next CBA. For sure. Why bother with teaming up with your new QB, I mean it takes away from having your hair styled a new cool way.
Doc Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 21 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: For sure. Why bother with teaming up with your new QB, I mean it takes away from having your hair styled a new cool way. I'm sure he had really important things to do those 6 days in May, that couldn't be done the other 25.
Mr. WEO Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 39 minutes ago, eball said: No, they won't. That's why it's debatable in the first place. If OBJ is successful some will say "OTAs don't matter" but nobody knows the true value because you can't place a tangible value on "building chemistry" other than to say it's arguably better to have it than not. Sure they will. Look, even if he showed up for a week or so in May, it would be 6 weeks before training camp. So, a week plus of "chemistry building"..... and then another month and a half off before they practice together again as a team? Those must be some unusually strong chemical bonds! Come on... Anyway, you want a top vet to show up at your OTAs? Pay him to show up. Otherwise, let's allow this annual pearl clutching to fade away as summer approaches.
eball Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Sure they will. Look, even if he showed up for a week or so in May, it would be 6 weeks before training camp. So, a week plus of "chemistry building"..... and then another month and a half off before they practice together again as a team? Those must be some unusually strong chemical bonds! Come on... Anyway, you want a top vet to show up at your OTAs? Pay him to show up. Otherwise, let's allow this annual pearl clutching to fade away as summer approaches. I don't know why you keep these conversations going. Pay him? He's one of the highest paid players in the league. And he's not a vet of the Cleveland Browns. It's pretty simple -- there are a ton of reasons why it would have been a good look for OBJ to attend OTAs, regardless of whether anyone thinks it means anything in September. Name one good reason for him not to attend, besides the fact that he's not contractually required to. 1
Doc Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 Just now, eball said: I don't know why you keep these conversations going. Pay him? He's one of the highest paid players in the league. And he's not a vet of the Cleveland Browns. It's pretty simple -- there are a ton of reasons why it would have been a good look for OBJ to attend OTAs, regardless of whether anyone thinks it means anything in September. Name one good reason for him not to attend, besides the fact that he's not contractually required to. There isn't a good reason. 1
Ethan in Cleveland Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 He doesn't have to be there and he will get plenty of reps in training camp. He will be just fine. As soon as teams stop cutting high priced veterans they can start talking about loyalty. Until then the players need to do what is in their best interest. If you want to argue being at OTA's are in OBJ's best interest for his own performance, that is a reasonable argument to make. But at this point in his career, what is he going to get out of running routes half speed with no physical contact allowed. He will learn the playbook. He is a pro and will be fine game 1.
YoloinOhio Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said: He doesn't have to be there and he will get plenty of reps in training camp. He will be just fine. As soon as teams stop cutting high priced veterans they can start talking about loyalty. Until then the players need to do what is in their best interest. If you want to argue being at OTA's are in OBJ's best interest for his own performance, that is a reasonable argument to make. But at this point in his career, what is he going to get out of running routes half speed with no physical contact allowed. He will learn the playbook. He is a pro and will be fine game 1. Yes, he’s made the decision to do the bare minimum for his new team. We will see how that works out for him and for them. If they win, he won’t be criticized. If they don’t, he will. We all know how well he’s dealt with criticism in the past. He’s setting himself up, considering it’s a franchise with a losing pedigree. They have a lot of inexperience and little winning going into a season with very high expectations. For the first half of the season, until Kareem hunt’s suspension is up, he’s considered the biggest addition on offense who is supposed to put them over the top. Their offense was good against bad defenses last year and bad against good defenses. They need a ton of work, it’s not going to be some magical formula of talent on paper = wins. So I understand the coach’s frustration. If he was on the Bills right now, I’d be frustrated as a fan. Edited June 3, 2019 by YoloinOhio 2
Bangarang Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 I wouldn’t be concerned. I even wonder if Bills are discussing this more than Browns fans.
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