K-9 Posted June 13, 2019 Posted June 13, 2019 25 minutes ago, JohnC said: I've read and heard radio reports that the GM was determined to trade him. So that tells you that the situation was untenable. It was also reported that another team that was interested in him was Montreal who also needed a second line center. Apparently the return in each case was not so overwhelming. I have not and will not be critical of the trade because obviously the GM felt compelled that the locker room needed to be altered. What is noticeable about this deal is that I don't recall any players making any statements on or off the record criticizing the organization for this trade. I can't disagree with any of this. Especially the lack of comments by the players as you pointed out. And I'm still intrigued by the Cam O'Reilly element to it all. Something was off about that entire deal with the Marlies. Nobody can convince me JBotts didn't want him off the Amerks; and quickly. I think there may be some truth to the rumors about him being a prick towards Nylander and JBotts wasn't having it.
row_33 Posted June 13, 2019 Posted June 13, 2019 24 minutes ago, JohnC said: Mark Messier was a genuine tough guy. What gave him credibility is not his words or menacing stare but his fanatical effort. No one on the ice was going to play harder. His passion was real. However, there are different styles of leadership. All of them revolve around authenticity. You can't be someone you are not. A player like Skinner shows leadership not through verbal fluidity but through effort in preparation and in the games. The sports world in every sport is a small world. There are few secrets. Having sex with a teammates wife or significant other is fraught with danger and complexity. The link below is about the infamous NY Yankee wife swap that at the time caused a public sensation but was well known by the baseball world before it became public. https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/original-wife-swap-yankee-pitchers-trade-lives-article-1.2138703 The Leafs wound up trading a Hall of Famer in his prime and another had broken bones and another quit with a few weeks to go before the playoffs started, over 3 incidents. allegedly...
JohnC Posted June 13, 2019 Posted June 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, K-9 said: I can't disagree with any of this. Especially the lack of comments by the players as you pointed out. And I'm still intrigued by the Cam O'Reilly element to it all. Something was off about that entire deal with the Marlies. Nobody can convince me JBotts didn't want him off the Amerks; and quickly. I think there may be some truth to the rumors about him being a prick towards Nylander and JBotts wasn't having it. What is surprising about the ROR situation, before and after the trade, is that not much has been revealed to what was going on in the room. Paul Hamilton who follows the team for WGR rarely says anything negative about player from a character standpoint. He is not reluctant to criticize players for their play but not malicious about the players as individuals. The one player he was willing to criticize beyond the play was ROR. He stated on more than a few occasions that he got tired of his "the burden is on me" and "I got to do better" act. I'm not out to malign this guy. He was on the team that won the cup and he was an instrumental player. Congratulations for him. But he having success with the Blues doesn't mean that moving him wasn't the right thing to do. As I said before the GM has to make some moves this offseason to mitigate the loss resulting from that deal. That would be the best response. 4 minutes ago, row_33 said: The Leafs wound up trading a Hall of Famer in his prime and another had broken bones and another quit with a few weeks to go before the playoffs started, over 3 incidents. allegedly... Who?
BillsFan4 Posted June 13, 2019 Posted June 13, 2019 (edited) i wasn’t taking about just point totals. As Lurker said, he played over 200 minutes more than any other forward. He should put up points with that many minutes and that much opportunity (at 5v5 and on the PP). I was talking about his effort on the ice on a shift by shift basis. I am talking about him dogging it on the backcheck. I am talking about him standing there doing nothing in the d zone while his man stands open in front of the net. I am talking about him no longer staying after practice like he did in his first season(s) here. I am talking about him being much less driven than he was in year 1 here, and kind of checked out mentally. Theres a lot more to hockey than just point totals. ROR even basically implied that he wasn’t giving his full effort in his year end comments. If you think the ROR buffalo had last year is the same ROR we had year 1, or that STL had this year, then I really don’t know what to say, except that you need to go back and rewatch some games from last year vs year 1 (or this year in STL). Oh, BTW, finishing 2nd in voting for the lady bang means nothing in regards to his performance on the ice. That is awarded to the guy who takes the least penalties (“most gentlemanly conduct”). And being 11th in Selke voting isn’t very impressive either. You’re not even considered a finalist for the Selke unless you finish top 3 in voting. Now, this year in STL, finishing top 3 for the Selke (and likely winning it) is impressive. The highest he ever was in voting during his time in buffalo was 11th. 4 hours ago, K-9 said: Yep. It was a carefully orchestrated exit. Agreed. You don’t say that stuff to the media if you really want to stay. You would say it behind closed doors to teammates, coaches and the GM. If he really wanted to make a differences here, that’s how he would have done it IMO. There is absolutely no reason to air that out in the media. And he had days to think about what he would say. It wasn’t some heat of the moment thing. It was calculated. Edited June 13, 2019 by BillsFan4
PromoTheRobot Posted June 13, 2019 Posted June 13, 2019 You want entertaining sports talk? Listen to the pouting on Boston sports radio today. Imagine three year olds denied candy.
JohnC Posted June 13, 2019 Posted June 13, 2019 17 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said: i wasn’t taking about just point totals. As Lurker said, he played over 200 minutes more than any other forward. He should put up points with that many minutes and that much opportunity (at 5v5 and on the PP). I was talking about his effort on the ice on a shift by shift basis. I am talking about him dogging it on the backcheck. I am talking about him standing there doing nothing in the d zone while his man stands open in front of the net. I am talking about him no longer staying after practice like he did in his first season(s) here. I am talking about him being much less driven than he was in year 1 here, and kind of checked out mentally. Theres a lot more to hockey than just point totals. ROR even basically implied that he wasn’t giving his full effort in his year end comments. If you think the ROR buffalo had last year is the same ROR we had year 1, or that STL had this year, then I really don’t know what to say, except that you need to go back and rewatch some games from last year vs year 1 (or this year in STL). Agreed. You don’t say that stuff to the media if you really want to stay. You would say it behind closed doors to teammates, coaches and the GM. If he really wanted to make a differences here, that’s how he would have done it IMO. There is absolutely no reason to air that out in the media. And he had days to think about what he would say. It wasn’t some heat of the moment thing. It was calculated. If you look at what was being offered by Montreal and St. Louis, the two teams most interested in acquiring a second line center from the market, the offerings were not very impressive considering the caliber of player being shopped. No organization is going to take on a player with a big contract without researching the player and the situation involving the player. Tapes don't lie. It was well known before the local fans were aware that this player was being shopped. So his play was being highly scrutinized by the potential suitors. If ROR was playing at his usual level of play he would have garnered richer offers. That wasn't the case here. In fact, St. Louis made it clear that their top two or three prospects were untouchable in any deal. That's why Tage was offered and not the more highly ranked prospects in their system. So what does that tell you? They weren't going to give up a high end prospect for a player who wasn't playing up his usual standard. They weren't willing to take on that risk. Although it is apparent that as it stands the Sabres got pummeled in this deal that doesn't mean that the calculations should be stopped. If Tage becomes a productive third line player and productive goal scorer and the lower first round pick we got in the trade is parlayed in a deal for a second line player than this deal in the longer term won't look so imbalanced. Anyone who has been in the workforce for a long time recognizes that there are circumstances where a talent in the group has to be dispatched in order to make the rest of the unit function as a better group. It's not an easy decision for the boss to make but it is a necessary decision that needs to be made. 12 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: You want entertaining sports talk? Listen to the pouting on Boston sports radio today. Imagine three year olds denied candy. Don't get carried away and do the jig at their misery. You might hurt your knee and set back your rehab. 1 1
plenzmd1 Posted June 13, 2019 Posted June 13, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, K-9 said: Seriously though, if Pegs had insisted on paying that $7.5m bonus BEFORE the trade, it probably would have opened up additional trade opportunities with other teams. That is my only question on how the whole trade went down. As I have said in here 1000X, revisionist history for the vast majority of folks who say they never wanted ROR traded or that the trade was a mistake...i would love people to show there posts on that from July or November...I know my take in November was Sabres in first, Blues in last, ROR was the common denominaterr. Turned out I was dead wrong..but 90% of people had the same thought. here is the start of the thread..i was happy he was traderd!!! Shocking Anyway, back to my original point. This is maybe the first time I am wondering if Terry got heavily involved in player transactions. I wonder if he told JBOTTS..if you moving him, it has to be before I pay that $7.5M...if after July 1, he is staying! And that really restricted what could come back in a trade. Edited June 13, 2019 by plenzmd1
K-9 Posted June 13, 2019 Posted June 13, 2019 16 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said: That is my only question on how the whole trade went down. As I have said in here 1000X, revisionist history for the vast majority of folks who say they never wanted ROR traded or that the trade was a mistake...i would love people to show there posts on that from July or November...I know my take in November was Sabres in first, Blues in last, ROR was the common denominaterr. Turned out I was dead wrong..but 90% of people had the same thought. Anyway, back to my original point. This is maybe the first time I am wondering if Terry got heavily involved in player transactions. I wonder if he told JBOTTS..if you moving him, it has to be before I pay that $7.5M...if after July 1, he is staying! And that really restricted what could come back in a trade. That is certainly a plausible scenario regarding Pegs. Something else you said 1000x is that a coaching change in mid-stream can dramatically turn the fortunes of a team. Berube and the Blues certainly proved that! 1
row_33 Posted June 13, 2019 Posted June 13, 2019 1 hour ago, JohnC said: Who? Leeman got beat up real bad
JohnC Posted June 13, 2019 Posted June 13, 2019 13 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said: That is my only question on how the whole trade went down. As I have said in here 1000X, revisionist history for the vast majority of folks who say they never wanted ROR traded or that the trade was a mistake...i would love people to show there posts on that from July or November...I know my take in November was Sabres in first, Blues in last, ROR was the common denominaterr. Turned out I was dead wrong..but 90% of people had the same thought. Anyway, back to my original point. This is maybe the first time I am wondering if Terry got heavily in player transactions. I wonder if he told JBOTTS..if you moving him, it has to be before I pay that $7.5M...if after July 1, he is staying! And that really restricted what could come back in a trade. We outsiders don't know if the bonus money consideration affected his value on the market. On the other hand what we do now know is that he was being shopped. A factor in diminishing his value was that he wasn't playing at the same level he was in his first year. And it probably wasn't a secret around the league that he wanted out and the organization also wanted him out. So the selling team didn't have the usual leverage that it would normally have dealing a talented player without such tarnishing issues. As it stands this is an imbalanced deal. That's life. Sometimes you are on the winning side of a deal and sometimes you are not. It's now up to the GM to make some smart deals this offseason that will close the gaping gap from this deal. 2 minutes ago, row_33 said: Leeman got beat up real bad The old school can be tough and bloody in meting out discipline for inappropriate conduct.
Lurker Posted June 13, 2019 Posted June 13, 2019 1 hour ago, BillsFan4 said: Oh, BTW, finishing 2nd in voting for the lady bang means nothing in regards to his performance on the ice. That is awarded to the guy who takes the least penalties (“most gentlemanly conduct”). Lady Byng Memorial Trophy: "player adjudged to have exhibited the best type of sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct combined with a high standard of playing ability".[1] Means nothing, since none of these guys were any good... 2000–01 Joe Sakic Colorado Avalanche C 1 82 30 0.37 2001–02 Ron Francis Carolina Hurricanes C 3 80 18 0.23 2002–03 Alexander Mogilny Toronto Maple Leafs RW 1 73 12 0.16 2003–04 Brad Richards Tampa Bay Lightning C 1 82 12 0.15 2004–05 Not awarded due to the lockout. 2005–06 Pavel Datsyuk Detroit Red Wings C 1 75 22 0.29 2006–07 Pavel Datsyuk Detroit Red Wings C 2 79 20 0.25 2007–08 Pavel Datsyuk Detroit Red Wings C 3 82 20 0.24 2008–09 Pavel Datsyuk Detroit Red Wings C 4 81 22 0.27 2009–10 Martin St. Louis Tampa Bay Lightning RW 1 82 12 0.15 2010–11 Martin St. Louis Tampa Bay Lightning RW 2 82 12 0.15 2011–12 Brian Campbell Florida Panthers D 1 82 6 0.07 2012–13 Martin St. Louis Tampa Bay Lightning RW 3 48 14 0.29 2013–14 Ryan O'Reilly Colorado Avalanche C 1 80 2 0.03 2014–15 Jiri Hudler Calgary Flames RW 1 78 14 0.18 2015–16 Anze Kopitar Los Angeles Kings C 1 81 16 0.20 2016–17 Johnny Gaudreau Calgary Flames LW 1 72 4 0.06 2017–18 William Karlsson Vegas Golden Knights C 1 82 12 0.15
row_33 Posted June 13, 2019 Posted June 13, 2019 Ratelle, Bucyk and Perreault were greats Bucyk was never shy to throw it down....
Big C Posted June 13, 2019 Posted June 13, 2019 (edited) Enjoying watching the celebration videos for the franchise's first cup. What a great story. Fired their coach, put in a rookie goalie and won it all. Someday, maybe us. Maybe. Please. Edited June 13, 2019 by Big C 1
row_33 Posted June 13, 2019 Posted June 13, 2019 14 minutes ago, Big C said: Enjoying watching the celebration videos for the franchise's first cup. What a great story. Fired their coach, put in a rookie goalie and won it all. Someday, maybe us. Maybe. Please. shows what a total farce it is to ask for continued excellence and continuity of great coaching and team effort
BillsFan4 Posted June 13, 2019 Posted June 13, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Lurker said: Lady Byng Memorial Trophy: "player adjudged to have exhibited the best type of sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct combined with a high standard of playing ability".[1] Means nothing, since none of these guys were any good... 2000–01 Joe Sakic Colorado Avalanche C 1 82 30 0.37 2001–02 Ron Francis Carolina Hurricanes C 3 80 18 0.23 2002–03 Alexander Mogilny Toronto Maple Leafs RW 1 73 12 0.16 2003–04 Brad Richards Tampa Bay Lightning C 1 82 12 0.15 2004–05 Not awarded due to the lockout. 2005–06 Pavel Datsyuk Detroit Red Wings C 1 75 22 0.29 2006–07 Pavel Datsyuk Detroit Red Wings C 2 79 20 0.25 2007–08 Pavel Datsyuk Detroit Red Wings C 3 82 20 0.24 2008–09 Pavel Datsyuk Detroit Red Wings C 4 81 22 0.27 2009–10 Martin St. Louis Tampa Bay Lightning RW 1 82 12 0.15 2010–11 Martin St. Louis Tampa Bay Lightning RW 2 82 12 0.15 2011–12 Brian Campbell Florida Panthers D 1 82 6 0.07 2012–13 Martin St. Louis Tampa Bay Lightning RW 3 48 14 0.29 2013–14 Ryan O'Reilly Colorado Avalanche C 1 80 2 0.03 2014–15 Jiri Hudler Calgary Flames RW 1 78 14 0.18 2015–16 Anze Kopitar Los Angeles Kings C 1 81 16 0.20 2016–17 Johnny Gaudreau Calgary Flames LW 1 72 4 0.06 2017–18 William Karlsson Vegas Golden Knights C 1 82 12 0.15 The main criteria for the lady bang is the number of penalty minutes you take in a season. It usually goes to one of the players (who play top 6/top 4 roles on their team) with the least amount of penalty minutes. Maybe I shouldn’t have said it’s meaningless. But it’s not an award given for being one of the best players in the NHL. Like the year ROf won in (2013) he was 33rd in the NHL in points, 29th in goals, 56th in assists. He wasn’t even top 20 in any category (with a quick glance) https://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_2014_leaders.html And I never once said ROR wasn’t any good. Even in his last season here he was still a good player for us. But it was still nothing like his 1st year here, or this year in STL, when everyone was saying “is this guy too good to be true?”. In ROR’s first year here he was unreal, just like in STL this year. Anyone you put on his line he had producing (even Nic Deslauriers). He was our best player in 2015, without a doubt. He was not that same player last year. I still never wanted to trade him. Even after the comments. I was pretty outspoken about that. I said the only way I was ok with trading him is if we got a return we couldn’t refuse. That didn’t happen. I hated the return from day 1. But I tried my best to look at it as a futures trade and not judge it until we knew where the 1st fell at the very least. My main point is that I just don’t buy this narrative that ROR was blameless in getting shipped out of buffalo. Botterill got a crap return but ROR played a large role in getting traded. In Botterill’s only year with ROR in Buffalo, he did not get to see the player we all saw in 2015-16. He got to see a player that was a shell of his former self. If you want to say he was beaten down by the losing, I’d say that was very likely. But whatever the reason, he just wasn’t the same driven to win player he was when he first got here. I also don’t buy that he didn’t want to leave (as I explained above). And for someone one who supposedly didn’t want to get traded, he sure was super excited when it happened (and in every interview afterwards). He seemed glad to be out of Buffalo, and even talked about how he was never equipped to be a leader here (the whole reason it was reported he wanted out of Colorado - to go be a real leader, and main guy, on a team). Edited June 13, 2019 by BillsFan4 1
BillsFan4 Posted June 13, 2019 Posted June 13, 2019 59 minutes ago, Big C said: Enjoying watching the celebration videos for the franchise's first cup. What a great story. Fired their coach, put in a rookie goalie and won it all. Someday, maybe us. Maybe. Please. Yeah, super happy for STL fans. They were the team that had been in the NHL the longest without a Cup win. Now Buffalo and Vancouver are... lol. A couple cool celebration videos - https://globalnews.ca/video/5385110/fans-celebrate-after-st-louis-blues-win-first-ever-stanley-cup
K-9 Posted June 13, 2019 Posted June 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said: Yeah, super happy for STL fans. They were the team that had been in the NHL the longest without a Cup win. Now Buffalo and Vancouver are... lol. A couple cool celebration videos - https://globalnews.ca/video/5385110/fans-celebrate-after-st-louis-blues-win-first-ever-stanley-cup Per the bold: be that as it may, there is still one team that has gone longer than Buffalo and Vancouver without winning a cup, regardless of our number of years in the league without one. 1
Q-baby! Posted June 13, 2019 Posted June 13, 2019 37 minutes ago, K-9 said: Per the bold: be that as it may, there is still one team that has gone longer than Buffalo and Vancouver without winning a cup, regardless of our number of years in the league without one. Big deal. At least they have won.
Alaska Darin Posted June 14, 2019 Posted June 14, 2019 9 hours ago, Dr. Who said: ROR can say whatever he wants for public consumption. If the fella didn't want out, he wouldn't have been traded. You mean because the Sabres front office has shown a level of competence on team building? Forgive me for laughing at the very thought.
JohnC Posted June 14, 2019 Posted June 14, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Alaska Darin said: You mean because the Sabres front office has shown a level of competence on team building? Forgive me for laughing at the very thought. It's understandable why ROR was frustrated and wanted out. He got tired of the losing and felt that he was stuck in a situation that wasn't going to soon change. But that's not to say that he didn't contribute in forcing his way out of town. What was apparent to his teammates and to the organization that his level of play and preparation noticeably declined. This malaise in play and attitude was going on for more than a short time. When ROR was traded to Buffalo and signed a near max contract he signed with a team that he knew was undertaking a major rebuild. He signed a long-term deal with a team that was still quite away from being a good team. So there should be no surprise what he was going to experience. There are plenty of players in this league who play for bad teams and organizations who continue to give consistent effort. So the situation he was in was not so unusual. What bothers me the most about this situation is his on and off the ice dropoff. That lack of commitment that he deliberately exhibited created a situation where he needed to be moved. Without question the Sabres front office has not acted competently for quite awhile. But even acknowledging the obvious doesn't make ROR's behavior very admirable. Edited June 14, 2019 by JohnC 1 1
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