GimmeSomeProcess Posted May 26, 2019 Posted May 26, 2019 10 hours ago, Kemp said: He was the 30th ranked QB in the NFL. Outperformed whose prognosis? Mayfield, Darnold, and even Rosen were ranked higher. This is who he outperformed: You’re showing the list of the website that Schatz is a part of. Wow, great evidence, and how the hell do believe Rosen was better than Allen. Worst stats, had 3 pick sixes and did nothing dynamic. At least Allen was doing something with his legs and passing other qbs haven’t done. 7 hours ago, Kemp said: This is what you are using to argue Allen was a good passer last year? Allen compared to no one in the NFL was Elway. No, that’s what your saying I said compared to Peterman and Anderson at least he looked like he belong. Are talent level was horrific on all fronts. As a total package, Allen showed things that can make him a stud like Vick
Dr. K Posted May 26, 2019 Posted May 26, 2019 7 hours ago, Kemp said: Analysts only change their opinions after the mathematical analysis confirms that they should. Whether you follow them in thought or not, you know that's what they do. If you disagree with an opinion of an analyst, you can be right, but you'll be wrong more often than right. If the above wasn't true, every team wouldn't always be beefing up their analytics department. That's simply how player evaluation is done, now. Good for Schatz if, should Allen's "analytics" improve, he changes his opinion. Not all commentators, even if they base their opinions on "objective standards," will. And there is often room for different interpretations of statistics, or analyses that point in different directions, as anyone who follows such analysis knows. It's not as cut and dried as you characterize it.
atlbillsfan1975 Posted May 26, 2019 Posted May 26, 2019 19 hours ago, JESSEFEFFER said: I'll take a shot. We want to believe that Josh's improvement, the defenses' all around play and their 4 and 4 record at the close have the Bills starting the off season as a team in the middle third of the league. He's saying that defensive performance is more random, Josh doesn't have it in him and they really entered the off season as bottom dwelling team. Thus, all the offseason improvements, while he likes them, do not get them a shot into the upper third of the league. Are you Aaron’s friend? That paragraph that Happy Quoted is indefensible. Aaron Shatz his pants on that one.
All_Pro_Bills Posted May 26, 2019 Posted May 26, 2019 20 minutes ago, Dr. K said: Good for Schatz if, should Allen's "analytics" improve, he changes his opinion. Not all commentators, even if they base their opinions on "objective standards," will. And there is often room for different interpretations of statistics, or analyses that point in different directions, as anyone who follows such analysis knows. It's not as cut and dried as you characterize it. The thing is Schatz and other analytics guys don't have an opinion, just an interpretation of the data. If the data changes, they change their assessment. Conveniently they are never wrong, and also never right. Sure Allen's 'numbers' might not indicate he is primed for success. But the context in which those numbers were produced needs to be considered. If you believe, as the Bills leadership does, in the 'potential' of Allen and improve the context such as fewer dropped passes and less pressure from the defense then the data may reveal improvement. Or it may not. At this point I'm willing to trust the judgment of our GM and HC over some data gathers with a couple spreadsheets.
GimmeSomeProcess Posted May 26, 2019 Posted May 26, 2019 7 hours ago, Kemp said: This is what you are using to argue Allen was a good passer last year? Allen compared to no one in the NFL was Elway. No, that’s what your saying I said compared to Peterman and Anderson at least he looked like he belong. Are talent level was horrific on all fronts. As a total package, Allen showed things that can make him a stud like Vick 37 minutes ago, Dr. K said: Good for Schatz if, should Allen's "analytics" improve, he changes his opinion. Not all commentators, even if they base their opinions on "objective standards," will. And there is often room for different interpretations of statistics, or analyses that point in different directions, as anyone who follows such analysis knows. It's not as cut and dried as you characterize it. He said if Allen improved its cause of the talent we brought him to surround him with. So not good on Schatz.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted May 26, 2019 Posted May 26, 2019 2 hours ago, BillyWhiteShows said: It’s not shocking that those rankings come from Football Outsiders Depending on the metric you go by, you’ll find Allen ranked closer to Darnold and higher than Jackson and Rosen. But even going by your logic, a “parody of an NFL QB” probably certainly be ranked lower than 30th. In no way, would a “parody” be ranked higher than Lamar Jackson, who is “not a parody” right? Also go read the article by Ryan Talbot. He explains how you could see progress in Allen after coming back from the elbow injury. Also, a “parody” probably doesn’t lead a team with bad talent around them to a 4-4 record. Again, not saying that Allen is a great QB yet....but yes he has performed better than the bleak outlook from old man Schatz Because a second rate analytics site like Football Outsiders are right 100% of the time... don’t you know? Something tells me @Kemp is a big fan of Mike Schopp Total schoop fanboy
Billzfan23 Posted May 26, 2019 Posted May 26, 2019 18 hours ago, Nextmanup said: Quote The one thing this board tends to agree on is that the Bills will never really be the team we want them to be without a very good QB at the helm, so there is enormous hope/pressure/concern regarding that state of affairs. You could say that about any NFL team.
K-9 Posted May 26, 2019 Posted May 26, 2019 8 hours ago, Kemp said: Here's your logic: Elway greatly improved during his career, so Allen will, too. The very basics of analytics and common sense points out that that makes no sense. For every Elway, there are 10 other QBs each season that begin their career poorly who don't get any better. What other than your beliefs tell you that Allen will follow a similar arc to Elway? My comment was more tongue in cheek than anything else. Lighten up. IMO, Allen showed enough glimpses to suggest he won’t be one of those 10 that doesn’t improve. Especially from a command of the game standpoint. It was obvious that the game was beginning to slow down for him a bit. Not everything he did was a disaster. He made some plays and I choose to give him credit for that rather than act like he never did anything positive at all. He’s got a ways to go, but I like where he is given his experience playing the position and the potential he has shown. 1
richardb1952 Posted May 26, 2019 Posted May 26, 2019 I liked what I saw from Allen last year. He looked like he belonged out there. He has to learn to read defenses better, to stay in the pocket more, get rid of the ball quicker and get better Comp %. He will have a better OL this year, hopefully a better running game, and better receivers. I like that he is willing to stand in there and take the long ball more than most other QBs in the league. He may never be a highly accurate passer but I believe he will improve in that category. I just don't think Allens unique skill level fits the analytical model of what a QB is supposed to be; his ability to run and his cannon for an arm puts a lot of additional pressure on a defense which Dabol can use to help create mismatches that will help Allen succeed. If Allen was an average running QB with an average arm the statistics would definitely be less favorable for Allen to succeed. So I think Allen has a lot more upside than what analytics might imply. He is an outlier that doesn't fit the mold of what analytics consider for success as an NFL QB. Let's hope he continues to develop along those lines and still retain what makes him unique. 2 1
K-9 Posted May 26, 2019 Posted May 26, 2019 I meant to add that Schatz and others of his ilk can only understand things from a statistical point of view. That is extremely limiting. In short, they don’t understand there’s a HUGE difference between being a passer and being a quarterback.
Doc Posted May 26, 2019 Posted May 26, 2019 15 hours ago, ScottLaw said: He didn't accomplish anything. They went 6-10 and their offense was bottom of the barrel. Lead the team to a winning record and put up some quality numbers and people will respect him and the Bills... if that's what you care about. Josh went 5-5 in the games he started and finished last year. Putting the 6-10 record on his is disingenuous. 12 hours ago, Kemp said: He was the 30th ranked QB in the NFL. Outperformed whose prognosis? Mayfield, Darnold, and even Rosen were ranked higher. This is who he outperformed: How do Allen's 631 yards and 8 TD's rushing factor into that? Or is it conveniently ignored?
Doc Posted May 26, 2019 Posted May 26, 2019 9 hours ago, Kemp said: It is impossible for a QB to make it to the NFL without an outstanding work ethic. You're kidding, right? 1
K-9 Posted May 26, 2019 Posted May 26, 2019 38 minutes ago, Doc said: Josh went 5-5 in the games he started and finished last year. Putting the 6-10 record on his is disingenuous. In addition to disingenuous, it’s specious, egregious, and willfully ignorant (as spoken by Jackie Chiles).
Ethan in Cleveland Posted May 26, 2019 Posted May 26, 2019 Never heard of this guy but basically he is correct. If Allen doesn’t get better this team isn't going anywhere. Eventually he needs to be a pocket passer. I think he will. I think a better OL and WR group will allow him to improve. I’m all in on Allen and have been since before the draft. I wanted Allen, Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield in that order, but honestly only wanted Allen or Rosen.
BillyWhiteShows Posted May 26, 2019 Posted May 26, 2019 38 minutes ago, Doc said: You're kidding, right? It’s an excuse and not entirely valid like much of his criticism of Allen. As much as we hate him, Tom Brady is frequently lauded for his work ethic, among other things. If all QB’s had a strong work ethic, it wouldn’t be a big deal.
formerlyofCtown Posted May 26, 2019 Posted May 26, 2019 10 hours ago, John from Riverside said: Work ethic Work ethic alone wont get you there but he has a ton of other intangibles that I believe also support it including great measurables.
Doc Posted May 26, 2019 Posted May 26, 2019 33 minutes ago, K-9 said: In addition to disingenuous, it’s specious, egregious, and willfully ignorant (as spoken by Jackie Chiles). I told him not to put the balm on. 1
K-9 Posted May 26, 2019 Posted May 26, 2019 16 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said: Never heard of this guy but basically he is correct. If Allen doesn’t get better this team isn't going anywhere. Eventually he needs to be a pocket passer. I think he will. I think a better OL and WR group will allow him to improve. I’m all in on Allen and have been since before the draft. I wanted Allen, Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield in that order, but honestly only wanted Allen or Rosen. This can be said of any second year starting QB whose team is on the outside looking in. It’s just the nature of the beast. He is already a pocket passer. Like all QBs, he needs pockets to work in that don’t collapse in two and a half seconds (the average time it took to sack him according to PFF; shortest time in the league), and, most importantly, he needs to develop more poise and learn to trust in what he sees as the plays develop. It was interesting that when he returned from injury, he wasted no time in taking off. Patience takes time to learn at this level. But he made some plays while the pocket was breaking down that show me he has what it takes. He’s a smart player, his occasional hero ball tendency not withstanding.
Doc Posted May 26, 2019 Posted May 26, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said: Never heard of this guy but basically he is correct. If Allen doesn’t get better this team isn't going anywhere. Eventually he needs to be a pocket passer. I think he will. I think a better OL and WR group will allow him to improve. I’m all in on Allen and have been since before the draft. I wanted Allen, Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield in that order, but honestly only wanted Allen or Rosen. While Josh needs to get better (and I doubt you'd find anyone who says otherwise), he wasn't the only one who needs/needed to get better. That's what Schatz conveniently ignored, if not pooh-poohed (I think that's what that horrible sentence that was quoted was trying to say, i.e. that the Bills didn't improve as much as fans think they did just because Josh will kill any improvements made, and that's idiotic). There was also no accounting for Josh getting 3rd team reps prior to the season or the improvement he showed after returning from injury. Edited May 26, 2019 by Doc
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