Pizza: How Important Is the Outer Crust?

[Gugny]

  On 7/5/2020 at 9:07 PM, KD in CA said:

 

Try again to educate you about pizza?  Naah....you seem happy with your Papa Johns.

 

Enjoy!

 

 

It took me a little while to find the proper Italians when I came out to CA, but have been pretty happy with the pizza selection since then.

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Papa John's?   The Harvest has been a local legend for almost 50 years.

[The Dean]

  On 7/5/2020 at 10:26 PM, Gugny said:

 

Papa John's?   The Harvest has been a local legend for almost 50 years.

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La Nova is a Buffalo local legend. Been there  since the 50's I think.  It still sucks.

 

BTW, IMO the Harvest pizza didn't look too bad (at least the plain cheese half). But it also doesn't look like authentic Italian style  pizza.

Edited July 5, 2020 by The Dean

[Johnny Hammersticks]

  On 7/5/2020 at 10:47 PM, The Dean said:

 

La Nova is a Buffalo local legend. Been there  since the 50's I think.  It still sucks.

 

BTW, IMO the Harvest pizza didn't look too bad (at least the plain cheese half). But it also doesn't look like authentic Italian style  pizza.

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What is “authentic Italian style?”  You referring to New York style?  Neapolitan?

[The Dean]

  On 7/5/2020 at 10:52 PM, Johnny Hammersticks said:

 

What is “authentic Italian style?”  You referring to New York style?  Neapolitan?

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I'm referring to pizzas made in the style of those made in Napoli, Italy (Naples).   The picture provided by KD is a good example of that style.

 

I typically avoid the term NYC Style pizza, unless it's a basic discussion about the thickness (or thinness) of the crust. I actually think most of the pizzerias in NYC kinda suck. But there are some really good ones, too. John's on Bleecker St is one a lot of people have probably been to, as it is right there in the heart of Greenwich Village. John's isn't 100% authentic, but it's pretty close. Maybe not as good as it used to be, but still very good. (Full disclosure, I'm going on the last time I had it back 3 years or so ago.)

 

If it's possible, I'll get a coal fired pizza every time. Coal gets the ovens extremely hot (close to 1,000 degrees it is said).  But coal is dirty and there aren't many of those ovens left. A good wood fired brick over will suffice.

 

https://www.edinformatics.com/travel/best-coal-fired-oven-pizzas-in-nyc.html
 

https://slice.seriouseats.com/2008/08/johns-pizzeria-of-bleecker-street-greenwich-village-manhattan-nyc.html

 

Also on Bleecker St. is a place called Fiore's. Not really traditional Italian, but not an abomination at all. Reminds me a lot of La Hacienda in Niagara Falls (not related to the La Hacienda in Buffalo or Tonawanda). Tony's Slice House in San Francisco kind of reminded me of that, too.

[The Dean]

Read this from Angelo's Pizza (coal fired, I believe) in midtown Manhattan:

 

http://www.angelospizzany.com/about.html

[Gugny]

  On 7/5/2020 at 11:12 PM, The Dean said:

 

 

I'm referring to pizzas made in the style of those made in Napoli, Italy (Naples).   The picture provided by KD is a good example of that style.

 

I typically avoid the term NYC Style pizza, unless it's a basic discussion about the thickness (or thinness) of the crust. I actually think most of the pizzerias in NYC kinda suck. But there are some really good ones, too. John's on Bleecker St is one a lot of people have probably been to, as it is right there in the heart of Greenwich Village. John's isn't 100% authentic, but it's pretty close. Maybe not as good as it used to be, but still very good. (Full disclosure, I'm going on the last time I had it back 3 years or so ago.)

 

If it's possible, I'll get a coal fired pizza every time. Coal gets the ovens extremely hot (close to 1,000 degrees it is said).  But coal is dirty and there aren't many of those ovens left. A good wood fired brick over will suffice.

 

https://www.edinformatics.com/travel/best-coal-fired-oven-pizzas-in-nyc.html
 

https://slice.seriouseats.com/2008/08/johns-pizzeria-of-bleecker-street-greenwich-village-manhattan-nyc.html

 

Also on Bleecker St. is a place called Fiore's. Not really traditional Italian, but not an abomination at all. Reminds me a lot of La Hacienda in Niagara Falls (not related to the La Hacienda in Buffalo or Tonawanda). Tony's Slice House in San Francisco kind of reminded me of that, too.

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The pizza at John's looks fantastic.  The other ... too much/too big outer crust for my liking.

 

 

  On 7/5/2020 at 11:20 PM, The Dean said:

Read this from Angelo's Pizza (coal fired, I believe) in midtown Manhattan:

 

http://www.angelospizzany.com/about.html

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We've always enjoyed Claudio's in Hell's Kitchen.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=claudio's+pizza+hell's+kitchen&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiEmvX7oLfqAhXPl3IEHancAUkQ_AUoA3oECBkQBQ&biw=1366&bih=625

 

[The Dean]

  On 7/5/2020 at 11:21 PM, Gugny said:

 

The pizza at John's looks fantastic.  The other ... too much/too big outer crust for my liking.

 

 

 

We've always enjoyed Claudio's in Hell's Kitchen.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=claudio's+pizza+hell's+kitchen&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiEmvX7oLfqAhXPl3IEHancAUkQ_AUoA3oECBkQBQ&biw=1366&bih=625

 

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I don't think I've ever been to Claudio's even though I used to walk that block a lot at one time. I'll have to check it out the next time I get to NYC.  Thanks for the rec!

 

And now, of course, I'm hungry for pizza. Don't think I can get a decent one at this time on Sunday though.

Edited July 5, 2020 by The Dean

[Johnny Hammersticks]

  On 7/5/2020 at 11:12 PM, The Dean said:

 

 

I'm referring to pizzas made in the style of those made in Napoli, Italy (Naples).   The picture provided by KD is a good example of that style.

 

I typically avoid the term NYC Style pizza, unless it's a basic discussion about the thickness (or thinness) of the crust. I actually think most of the pizzerias in NYC kinda suck. But there are some really good ones, too. John's on Bleecker St is one a lot of people have probably been to, as it is right there in the heart of Greenwich Village. John's isn't 100% authentic, but it's pretty close. Maybe not as good as it used to be, but still very good. (Full disclosure, I'm going on the last time I had it back 3 years or so ago.)

 

If it's possible, I'll get a coal fired pizza every time. Coal gets the ovens extremely hot (close to 1,000 degrees it is said).  But coal is dirty and there aren't many of those ovens left. A good wood fired brick over will suffice.

 

https://www.edinformatics.com/travel/best-coal-fired-oven-pizzas-in-nyc.html
 

https://slice.seriouseats.com/2008/08/johns-pizzeria-of-bleecker-street-greenwich-village-manhattan-nyc.html

 

Also on Bleecker St. is a place called Fiore's. Not really traditional Italian, but not an abomination at all. Reminds me a lot of La Hacienda in Niagara Falls (not related to the La Hacienda in Buffalo or Tonawanda). Tony's Slice House in San Francisco kind of reminded me of that, too.

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Yeah, like I said.  Neapolitan pizza.  Typically simple ingredients such as crushed tomatoes, basil, mozz w drizzle of good olive oil.  Key is heat of oven (coal or wood) and uniformity of crust “doneness.”  Crust should be charred slightly, yet chewy.  That’s my understanding of “Italian Style” pizza.

[Jauronimo]

  On 7/6/2020 at 2:44 AM, Johnny Hammersticks said:

 

Yeah, like I said.  Neapolitan pizza.  Typically simple ingredients such as crushed tomatoes, basil, mozz w drizzle of good olive oil.  Key is heat of oven (coal or wood) and uniformity of crust “doneness.”  Crust should be charred slightly, yet chewy.  That’s my understanding of “Italian Style” pizza.

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There are other differences between a Neapolitan pizza and most pizzas we eat in the U.S. True Neapolitan is cooked in a wood fired oven, uses only fresh buffalo mozzarella or fior de latte, uncooked tomatoes for sauce, and has to be cooked in 90 seconds or less.  It should have a thin crispy shell but the crust should be light and pillowy underneath.  A slice of this pizza will not support itself under its own weight.  Then you have thick crust sicilian style pizzas.  These are cooked in steel pans and the crust essentially fries in a generous amount of olive oil coating the pan.  Its essentially a focaccia bread topped with tomatoes and cheese.  Both of these are true "Italian style" and they couldn't be more different. 

 

Your NY style pizza, in contrast, can cook in a gas or coal oven (which actually gets much hotter than a wood fired oven), can be topped with raw seasoned tomatoes or a cooked sauce, is defined by using low-moisture whole milk mozzarella rather than the fresh stuff, and is boundless in terms of toppings.  The crust is crunchier and should be able to support its own weight with a slight fold.  Usually cooking in about 4 minutes.  Your best NYC slice is not a true "Italian style" pizza by definition.

 

Pizza was invented by Italians but in my opinion it was perfected by Italian-Americans.  People like to wax poetically about what is and what isn't a true "Italian style" pizza but most of the time its pure nostalgia based on whatever they grew up with.  Now that we've established that pretty much none of the pizza we eat in this country it true Italian style, why not embrace other styles of pizza like Buffalo NY style, or Chicago style, or Detroit style? 

[Gugny]

  On 7/6/2020 at 2:30 PM, Jauronimo said:

There are other differences between a Neapolitan pizza and most pizzas we eat in the U.S. True Neapolitan is cooked in a wood fired oven, uses only fresh buffalo mozzarella or fior de latte, uncooked tomatoes for sauce, and has to be cooked in 90 seconds or less.  It should have a thin crispy shell but the crust should be light and pillowy underneath.  A slice of this pizza will not support itself under its own weight.  Then you have thick crust sicilian style pizzas.  These are cooked in steel pans and the crust essentially fries in a generous amount of olive oil coating the pan.  Its essentially a focaccia bread topped with tomatoes and cheese.  Both of these are true "Italian style" and they couldn't be more different. 

 

Your NY style pizza, in contrast, can cook in a gas or coal oven (which actually gets much hotter than a wood fired oven), can be topped with raw seasoned tomatoes or a cooked sauce, is defined by using low-moisture whole milk mozzarella rather than the fresh stuff, and is boundless in terms of toppings.  The crust is crunchier and should be able to support its own weight with a slight fold.  Usually cooking in about 4 minutes.  Your best NYC slice is not a true "Italian style" pizza by definition.

 

Pizza was invented by Italians but in my opinion it was perfected by Italian-Americans.  People like to wax poetically about what is and what isn't a true "Italian style" pizza but most of the time its pure nostalgia based on whatever they grew up with.  Now that we've established that pretty much none of the pizza we eat in this country it true Italian style, why not embrace other styles of pizza like Buffalo NY style, or Chicago style, or Detroit style? 

Expand  

 

[Johnny Hammersticks]

  On 7/6/2020 at 2:30 PM, Jauronimo said:

There are other differences between a Neapolitan pizza and most pizzas we eat in the U.S. True Neapolitan is cooked in a wood fired oven, uses only fresh buffalo mozzarella or fior de latte, uncooked tomatoes for sauce, and has to be cooked in 90 seconds or less.  It should have a thin crispy shell but the crust should be light and pillowy underneath.  A slice of this pizza will not support itself under its own weight.  Then you have thick crust sicilian style pizzas.  These are cooked in steel pans and the crust essentially fries in a generous amount of olive oil coating the pan.  Its essentially a focaccia bread topped with tomatoes and cheese.  Both of these are true "Italian style" and they couldn't be more different. 

 

Your NY style pizza, in contrast, can cook in a gas or coal oven (which actually gets much hotter than a wood fired oven), can be topped with raw seasoned tomatoes or a cooked sauce, is defined by using low-moisture whole milk mozzarella rather than the fresh stuff, and is boundless in terms of toppings.  The crust is crunchier and should be able to support its own weight with a slight fold.  Usually cooking in about 4 minutes.  Your best NYC slice is not a true "Italian style" pizza by definition.

 

Pizza was invented by Italians but in my opinion it was perfected by Italian-Americans.  People like to wax poetically about what is and what isn't a true "Italian style" pizza but most of the time its pure nostalgia based on whatever they grew up with.  Now that we've established that pretty much none of the pizza we eat in this country it true Italian style, why not embrace other styles of pizza like Buffalo NY style, or Chicago style, or Detroit style? 

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If @Jauronimo was a Care Bear, he’d have a picture of Martin Luther King Jr. eating a slice of pizza on his belly.  His special power would be to succinctly describe the intricate characteristics of many different types of pizza, but then finish with an explanation of why these differences are beautiful and make ALL types of pizza wonderful and delicious regardless of the color and consistency of their crust ? ? ♥️ 

 

[LeviF]

  On 7/6/2020 at 3:32 PM, Johnny Hammersticks said:

 

If @Jauronimo was a Care Bear, he’d have a picture of Martin Luther King Jr. eating a slice of pizza on his belly.  His special power would be to succinctly describe the intricate characteristics of many different types of pizza, but then finish with an explanation of why these differences are beautiful and make ALL types of pizza wonderful and delicious regardless of the color and consistency of their crust ? ? ♥️ 

 

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@Jauronimo has a dream that his little pizzas will one day be eaten in a nation where they will not be judged by the "authenticity" of their continental Italian heritage, but by the content of their tastes.

[Gugny]

  On 7/6/2020 at 3:32 PM, Johnny Hammersticks said:

 

If @Jauronimo was a Care Bear, he’d have a picture of Martin Luther King Jr. eating a slice of pizza on his belly.  His special power would be to succinctly describe the intricate characteristics of many different types of pizza, but then finish with an explanation of why these differences are beautiful and make ALL types of pizza wonderful and delicious regardless of the color and consistency of their crust ? ? ♥️ 

 

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  On 7/6/2020 at 3:53 PM, LeviF91 said:

 

@Jauronimo has a dream that his little pizzas will one day be eaten in a nation where they will not be judged by the "authenticity" of their continental Italian heritage, but by the content of their tastes.

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@Jauronimo shall overcome.

[snafu]

  On 7/5/2020 at 5:56 PM, BringBackFergy said:

That’s not even pizza. It’s focaccia. If I wanted to eat a side loaf of fresh baked bread I’d order one of those. The Harvest pizza (noted above) has a perfect balance of sweet crust, sauce, caramelized cheese baked to perfection. Try again.  

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Are we expanding the definition of outer crust to include the entire pie?

Outer crust with toppings on it like sauce and caramelized cheese is like any other part of the crust, outer, inner, any of it.  If you need the dough to be topped with sauce and cheese then you're not referring to the outer crust -- and you're not tasting the unadulterated crust to make any quality judgment about the most important component of a pizza.

 

 

[The Dean]

  On 7/6/2020 at 2:30 PM, Jauronimo said:

There are other differences between a Neapolitan pizza and most pizzas we eat in the U.S. True Neapolitan is cooked in a wood fired oven, uses only fresh buffalo mozzarella or fior de latte, uncooked tomatoes for sauce, and has to be cooked in 90 seconds or less.  It should have a thin crispy shell but the crust should be light and pillowy underneath.  A slice of this pizza will not support itself under its own weight.  Then you have thick crust sicilian style pizzas.  These are cooked in steel pans and the crust essentially fries in a generous amount of olive oil coating the pan.  Its essentially a focaccia bread topped with tomatoes and cheese.  Both of these are true "Italian style" and they couldn't be more different. 

 

Your NY style pizza, in contrast, can cook in a gas or coal oven (which actually gets much hotter than a wood fired oven), can be topped with raw seasoned tomatoes or a cooked sauce, is defined by using low-moisture whole milk mozzarella rather than the fresh stuff, and is boundless in terms of toppings.  The crust is crunchier and should be able to support its own weight with a slight fold.  Usually cooking in about 4 minutes.  Your best NYC slice is not a true "Italian style" pizza by definition.

 

Pizza was invented by Italians but in my opinion it was perfected by Italian-Americans.  People like to wax poetically about what is and what isn't a true "Italian style" pizza but most of the time its pure nostalgia based on whatever they grew up with.  Now that we've established that pretty much none of the pizza we eat in this country it true Italian style, why not embrace other styles of pizza like Buffalo NY style, or Chicago style, or Detroit style? 

Expand  

 

 

Yes, let's not be complete pizza snobs. And I don't mean to sound like one. I like some of most every style---as long as they are using quality ingredients, cooking the pie properly, etc. But like almost everything, the vast majority of what is available varies between mediocre to crap. Same with art, music, movies, etc. 

[Mike in Horseheads]

Seeing these ad's for "Marcos Pizza" on the Indy race and they advertise Pizza Bowls. "All the pizza without the crust". Looks Deeeeee licious

[BringBackFergy]

  On 7/12/2020 at 5:41 PM, Mike in Horseheads said:

Seeing these ad's for "Marcos Pizza" on the Indy race and they advertise Pizza Bowls. "All the pizza without the crust". Looks Deeeeee licious

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Heathen!!!!

[707BillsFan]

No matter how good the crust is, I still always give some to the dogs. They deserve to experience good crust too. 

[Gugny]

Thanks to @Rochesterfan, I have a new development.

 

Cornicione.  Learn it.  Remember it.

 

What is a Pizza Cornicione?

 

Simply put, cornicione means ‘crust’. However, in the States, as well as in Britain, the pizza crust is often a term used to refer to the whole base.

 

Cornicione means a very specific part of this base, namely the outer rim or lip. The Italian origins of the name hint that it is a component of Italian pizzas. This is correct. They are commonly found on Neapolitan style pizzas. 

 

This is for all of you people, namely @Beerball, who contend that "the crust is the same throughout the pizza.  'TAIN'T!!!

 

https://na-pizza.com/pizza-cornicione/

 

And with THAT .... the defense rests.

 

 

 

[Beerball]

  On 7/26/2021 at 2:37 PM, Gugny said:

Thanks to @Rochesterfan, I have a new development.

 

Cornicione.  Learn it.  Remember it.

 

What is a Pizza Cornicione?

 

Simply put, cornicione means ‘crust’. However, in the States, as well as in Britain, the pizza crust is often a term used to refer to the whole base.

 

Cornicione means a very specific part of this base, namely the outer rim or lip. The Italian origins of the name hint that it is a component of Italian pizzas. This is correct. They are commonly found on Neapolitan style pizzas. 

 

This is for all of you people, namely @Beerball, who contend that "the crust is the same throughout the pizza.  'TAIN'T!!!

 

https://na-pizza.com/pizza-cornicione/

 

And with THAT .... the defense rests.

 

 

 

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Crust is crust. Are the components different? No.  Even someone as crusty as yourself should understand this.