Ronin Posted May 24, 2019 Posted May 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said: I missed the other Mack posts. I should not have commented about him when others have already done so. That being said there was a lot of debate as to how Mack would fare in the NFL in relation to his college competition. I have patience enough to see how he plays this year before I "score" Beane's selection. I probably didn't see them. I've got a slew of people on ignore. People that flame and seem to take everything personally. I don't have the time or patience for it. Either way, what are your thoughts on what I posted about Mack contrasted with Oliver? I don't care what the emotional masses say in the midst of the forum equivalent of a mob-mentality, I'm far more interested in what a handful of thoughtful people that actually take facts onsideration and do not build arguments around prior exceptions. I mean if that's the case, why draft a QB in round 1. Just draft one in round 6 and cite Brady as the reason why, eh. It makes as much sense. As I just said, even draft profilers were honest enough to at least mention if not express concerns over Oliver's level of competition. But when I do it I don't know what I'm talking about. Go figure. Expected tho. I mean to dismiss my arguments out-of-hand, as is being done, is to essentially state that you don't think that level of competition is relevant, when it's hugely relevant. On the flip side, throwing out exceptions in former players, is equivalent to suggesting that a 6th-round drafted QB will become a franchise QB because Brady did it. Yes, exceptions happen, but they usually don't, which is why they're exceptions. Ergo, it's not wise to count on exceptions occurring, to whatever extent one is counting on them. Either way, don't you think that it's problematic that so many seem to be taking issue personally with my angle on this? Why the personal affront? I haven't attacked anyone. Strange dynamics albeit normal. What's interesting is that I said the exact same things publicly about players like Jones, Spiller, Watkins, Lawson, Ragland, Manuel, and others. I analyze the contexts in which they excelled in college, didn't see a translation to the NFL, and ended up being spot on despite the same exact dynamics going on then as I'm experiencing now. I'm fully used to it. LOL I've said the same about Allen and I stand by it. I've only seen one national level analyst get it. Here's the link and here's what he said; https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/ranking-the-nfls-top-triplets-from-32-1-for-the-2019-season/ Allen had a productive rookie season ... on the ground. But he's a quarterback, and he needs to be more productive through the air. That's exactly right. Unobjective people completely ignore the fact that as a passer Allen was among the few worst and riskiest (according to PFF) QBs in the league last season. He had the worst rating of any QB in the league last season besides Rosen, whom he was only a point better than. He had the fewest red zone TDs of any starting QB. He had the worst completion % of any starter too. He had the second-worst Adjusted Yards-per-Attempt only marginally ahead of Rosen, but he was ranked 8th in Yards-per-Completion, which should be highly concerning to anyone understanding averages. He had the second-worst INT% and the third worst TD%. Second-to-last in Net YPA and Adj. NYPA marginally ahead of only Rosen. I'm highly concerned. This notion that he's a shoe-in for franchise status is absurd. Would love for it to happen, but I'm not sold on A, his coaching, and B, the ability for a QB with essentially terminal issues in reading defenses and checking down to begin doing that well in the NFL. I mean why is it so difficult to comprehend that those kinds of leaps simply don't happen, even rarely much less routinely. But I guess because he's our QB it's different. That's not a reason why it will or why he'll defy heavy odds against him. I'm also concerned with our GM and HC. We've signed absolutely no big names in three years, while giving our biggest contract to Lotulolei who's consuming a whole lot of cap space as a result. He's not even close to being any better than a very average player on our team. These guys seem to just love low-risk one and two-year contracts. There's a reason why that's how it has unfolded as such, and a big part of it is because if those players were in such hot demand then they wouldn't be accepting two-year contracts. Anyway, let me know what you think about what I said about Mack. I'm not sure what there is to say other than that it was a good point given that Oliver has no game like that nor one even close. Oliver was the only small-school DT drafted with a history. Edited May 24, 2019 by TaskersGhost
thebandit27 Posted May 24, 2019 Posted May 24, 2019 42 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: This isn't about your take or mine, it's about contrasting reality with the narrative(s) that exist. If you read here all we hear is about how Oliver consistently blows up douible and even gives triple-teams trouble. In this game he's facing an absolutely nothing OL with no NFL prospects whatsoever, and his play is as inconsistent as can possibly be and did neither and even couldn't even routinely beat his man in one-on-ones, which yes, I would expect in that level of a game. Against linemen that he'll never even see as such in the NFL I'd expect sheer and utter dominance. in well over 50% of plays, particularly in 1-on-1's. You're not living in reality.
dave mcbride Posted May 24, 2019 Posted May 24, 2019 (edited) 49 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: I probably didn't see them. I've got a slew of people on ignore. People that flame and seem to take everything personally. I don't have the time or patience for it. Either way, what are your thoughts on what I posted about Mack contrasted with Oliver? I don't care what the emotional masses say in the midst of the forum equivalent of a mob-mentality, I'm far more interested in what a handful of thoughtful people that actually take facts onsideration and do not build arguments around prior exceptions. I mean if that's the case, why draft a QB in round 1. Just draft one in round 6 and cite Brady as the reason why, eh. It makes as much sense. As I just said, even draft profilers were honest enough to at least mention if not express concerns over Oliver's level of competition. But when I do it I don't know what I'm talking about. Go figure. Expected tho. I mean to dismiss my arguments out-of-hand, as is being done, is to essentially state that you don't think that level of competition is relevant, when it's hugely relevant. On the flip side, throwing out exceptions in former players, is equivalent to suggesting that a 6th-round drafted QB will become a franchise QB because Brady did it. Yes, exceptions happen, but they usually don't, which is why they're exceptions. Ergo, it's not wise to count on exceptions occurring, to whatever extent one is counting on them. Either way, don't you think that it's problematic that so many seem to be taking issue personally with my angle on this? Why the personal affront? I haven't attacked anyone. Strange dynamics albeit normal. What's interesting is that I said the exact same things publicly about players like Jones, Spiller, Watkins, Lawson, Ragland, Manuel, and others. I analyze the contexts in which they excelled in college, didn't see a translation to the NFL, and ended up being spot on despite the same exact dynamics going on then as I'm experiencing now. I'm fully used to it. LOL I've said the same about Allen and I stand by it. I've only seen one national level analyst get it. Here's the link and here's what he said; https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/ranking-the-nfls-top-triplets-from-32-1-for-the-2019-season/ Allen had a productive rookie season ... on the ground. But he's a quarterback, and he needs to be more productive through the air. That's exactly right. Unobjective people completely ignore the fact that as a passer Allen was among the few worst and riskiest (according to PFF) QBs in the league last season. He had the worst rating of any QB in the league last season besides Rosen, whom he was only a point better than. He had the fewest red zone TDs of any starting QB. He had the worst completion % of any starter too. He had the second-worst Adjusted Yards-per-Attempt only marginally ahead of Rosen, but he was ranked 8th in Yards-per-Completion, which should be highly concerning to anyone understanding averages. He had the second-worst INT% and the third worst TD%. Second-to-last in Net YPA and Adj. NYPA marginally ahead of only Rosen. I'm highly concerned. This notion that he's a shoe-in for franchise status is absurd. Would love for it to happen, but I'm not sold on A, his coaching, and B, the ability for a QB with essentially terminal issues in reading defenses and checking down to begin doing that well in the NFL. I mean why is it so difficult to comprehend that those kinds of leaps simply don't happen, even rarely much less routinely. But I guess because he's our QB it's different. That's not a reason why it will or why he'll defy heavy odds against him. I'm also concerned with our GM and HC. We've signed absolutely no big names in three years, while giving our biggest contract to Lotulolei who's consuming a whole lot of cap space as a result. He's not even close to being any better than a very average player on our team. These guys seem to just love low-risk one and two-year contracts. There's a reason why that's how it has unfolded as such, and a big part of it is because if those players were in such hot demand then they wouldn't be accepting two-year contracts. Anyway, let me know what you think about what I said about Mack. I'm not sure what there is to say other than that it was a good point given that Oliver has no game like that nor one even close. Oliver was the only small-school DT drafted with a history. This statement is false. Scroll down to the individual stat lines (@thebandit27- worth your time too). Oklahoma ended up finishing 5th overall that season and 3rd overall in offensive points scored. https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/boxscores/2016-09-03-houston.html. Also: https://houseofhouston.com/2016/09/03/westfields-ed-oliver-makes-mark-oklahoma/. Edited May 24, 2019 by dave mcbride
Ronin Posted May 24, 2019 Posted May 24, 2019 (edited) 56 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: So this is in response to this post and your line by line of the Texas Tech game. I think you are being super nit-picky. It is obvious, even through your quibbles, that he is heads and shoulders more athletic and talented than the guys he was up against. Now, yes, those guys weren't the same talent level as what he will face in the NFL. Buy the guys who don't get drafted aren't miles behind the lineman that do. Not the way Oliver is miles ahead of them. Mack had more production against Ohio State than Oliver did, but Mack played a position and style that lent itself to putting up that kind of production. Mack could be moved around and isolated into one-on-one situations against a variety of lineman. I really do think your critique is a little over the top. Well I am being nit-picky. Any scouting staff that's good should be just as nit-picky. It's served me tremendously well in the past, being so "nit-picky." I'd call it attentiveness to details and specifics. Otherwise you just nailed my point entirely! Nice! But think about what you also just admitted. He hasn't proven anything, literally nothing, against any talent (player-wise or team wise) that he'll face in the NFL. What he "didn't do" shouldn't be positively projected in assuming that he'll do things that he never did. Might happen, that's about the best we can say. So IF he does that in the NFL, it'll be a first. Based upon what you just said there's not arguing that. Here's the thing, the tougher the competition got for him, the less he did. I just pointed out in the video review how a Sr. Center that didn't even have a distant shot at getting drafted gave Oliver a game vs. Texas Tech. Did Stawarz shut Oliver down? Hardlly, but based upon the narrative, a small-school C with no profile even by Rivals (do you have any idea about what that means?) should be utterly dominated by a DT that's been touted as among the best if not the best in the entire Draft. Yet, that did not happen. Again, his projection to the NFL is predicated entirely on suppositions. There's nothing concrete that testifies to his making such a transition. You say I'm too attentive to detail, which I actually consider to be a compliment, but I'd turn that around and say that the vast majority are ignoring reality entirely in insisting that Oliver's some kind of beast when he didn't even excel as such against average collegiate OL-men. Time will tell. Again, not sure why so many people relentlessly pursue me as if I'm attacking them personally. That to me is far more problematic. And Scott wonders why gameday threads are out of hand. LOL Edited May 24, 2019 by TaskersGhost
Ronin Posted May 24, 2019 Posted May 24, 2019 18 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: You're not living in reality. What's not living in reality are the narratives. BTW, everyone said the same thing about my take on Zay Jones for instance. I stand by it today. You know my take on Allen. I stand by that too. Doesn't sound as if you want to follow-up on the video thing, so I won't spend the time then. If you change your mind let me know. BTW, watch highlight videos of Harrison, who played against a wealth of players that made it to the NFL. Talk about being a beast. Yet, ... Here's the list of linemen drafted in Phillips' Draft that Phillips played against. Oliver doesn't have a list. Granted, they're not great, but they were draftable players. Phillips plays like a terror against some of them. Go watch it yourself.
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted May 24, 2019 Posted May 24, 2019 6 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: Well I am being nit-picky. Any scouting staff that's good should be just as nit-picky. It's served me tremendously well in the past, being so "nit-picky." I'd call it attentiveness to details and specifics. Otherwise you just nailed my point entirely! Nice! But think about what you also just admitted. He hasn't proven anything, literally nothing, against any talent (player-wise or team wise) that he'll face in the NFL. What he "didn't do" shouldn't be positively projected in assuming that he'll do things that he never did. Might happen, that's about the best we can say. So IF he does that in the NFL, it'll be a first. Based upon what you just said there's not arguing that. Here's the thing, the tougher the competition got for him, the less he did. I just pointed out in the video review how a Sr. Center that didn't even have a distant shot at getting drafted gave Oliver a game vs. Texas Tech. Did Stawarz shut Oliver down? Hardlly, but based upon the narrative, a small-school C with no profile even by Rivals (do you have any idea about what that means?) should be utterly dominated by a DT that's been touted as among the best if not the best in the entire Draft. Yet, that did not happen. Again, his projection to the NFL is predicated entirely on suppositions. There's nothing concrete that testifies to his making such a transition. You say I'm too attentive to detail, which I actually consider to be a compliment, but I'd turn that around and say that the vast majority are ignoring reality entirely in insisting that Oliver's some kind of beast when he didn't even excel as such against average collegiate OL-men. Time will tell. Again, not sure why so many people relentlessly pursue me as if I'm attacking them personally. That to me is far more problematic. And Scott wonders why gameday threads are out of hand. LOL All projections are based on suppositions. That is why there are so many first round busts every year. It is the same reason judging players by the talent they face is not a workable model. Guys dominate draft eligible talent regularly and then bust at the NFL level, and then vice versa. In any event, if your problem is with judging player without "concrete" evidence, you should probably sit out the draft analysis game. I am not sure you understand my point. Let's image players on a scale of 1-10. To be drafted, a player needs to be 6-7 or above. The guys you are talking about are 5s. Now, if you put a 5 against a 7 in a College game, the 7 is going to be only slightly better--and that is because of parity (and that these guys are often drafted based on projection). But if you put a 5 against a 10, the 10 is going to blow them away. That is what Oliver did. I don't really mind the point you are making, I do understand. The mistake you are making is thinking that he didn't dominate based on your nit-picky critiques. Now, the problem with your nit-picking is that we are evaluating players and projecting what they can do at the next level. You are not critiquing strength, athleticism, etc. You are critiquing technique and other things that are corrected by NFL level coaching--something he hasn't had.
ColoradoBills Posted May 24, 2019 Posted May 24, 2019 41 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: I probably didn't see them. I've got a slew of people on ignore. People that flame and seem to take everything personally. I don't have the time or patience for it. Either way, what are your thoughts on what I posted about Mack contrasted with Oliver? I don't care what the emotional masses say in the midst of the forum equivalent of a mob-mentality, I'm far more interested in what a handful of thoughtful people that actually take facts onsideration and do not build arguments around prior exceptions. I mean if that's the case, why draft a QB in round 1. Just draft one in round 6 and cite Brady as the reason why, eh. It makes as much sense. Anyway, let me know what you think about what I said about Mack. I'm not sure what there is to say other than that it was a good point given that Oliver has no game like that nor one even close. Oliver was the only small-school DT drafted with a history. Truthfully I can't answer you about Mack v Oliver. I have a very limited college expertise. I listen to pundits and poster who I know have more and even then it seems very subjective. As to forum discussions about the draft I tend to not comment on players (being I don't know the college world that well) and wait to see who is drafted. After that I look the players up and listen to the "experts" but none means much until I see them play (or at the very least some camp work). I watch all lot of NFL football and have for many decades (more than I like to admit) and can only rationally comment on players once I see some results.
Ronin Posted May 24, 2019 Posted May 24, 2019 16 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: This statement is false. Scroll down to the individual stat lines (@thebandit27- worth your time too). Oklahoma ended up finishing 5th overall that season and 3rd overall in offensive points scored. https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/boxscores/2016-09-03-houston.html. Also: https://houseofhouston.com/2016/09/03/westfields-ed-oliver-makes-mark-oklahoma/. A fair point, but I've made it clear that I've been talking about Oliver's last two seasons. Sorry if I didin't make that completely clear. I don't care what he did as a rookie three years ago if he hasn't been able to repeat it, particularly against far lesser competition. Of course the argument is that they used him differently, but to be frank, upon watching that game I'm not seeing any major differences except in situational bases. Either way, I acknowledge that you think that Mack and Oliver are on par with one another accounting for their positions. Noted. I'll dissent on that one.
thebandit27 Posted May 24, 2019 Posted May 24, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: What's not living in reality are the narratives. BTW, everyone said the same thing about my take on Zay Jones for instance. I stand by it today. You know my take on Allen. I stand by that too. Doesn't sound as if you want to follow-up on the video thing, so I won't spend the time then. If you change your mind let me know. BTW, watch highlight videos of Harrison, who played against a wealth of players that made it to the NFL. Talk about being a beast. Yet, ... Here's the list of linemen drafted in Phillips' Draft that Phillips played against. Oliver doesn't have a list. Granted, they're not great, but they were draftable players. Phillips plays like a terror against some of them. Go watch it yourself. You need to stop assuming that someone hasn't watched a player if they don't agree with you. And yes, you're not living in reality if you expect a player to dominate all game, every game. Even Aaron Donald didn't dominate against ACC and Big East competition in college. You have your opinion and that's fine, but you are massively over-stating your case against him. He didn't "get skunked" against Texas Tech, nor has he been invisible against Power 5 teams as you claim. And if it makes you feel any better, not one of the players on your list got a draftable grade from me. Edited May 24, 2019 by thebandit27 1
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted May 24, 2019 Posted May 24, 2019 10 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: What's not living in reality are the narratives. BTW, everyone said the same thing about my take on Zay Jones for instance. I stand by it today. You know my take on Allen. I stand by that too. Doesn't sound as if you want to follow-up on the video thing, so I won't spend the time then. If you change your mind let me know. BTW, watch highlight videos of Harrison, who played against a wealth of players that made it to the NFL. Talk about being a beast. Yet, ... Here's the list of linemen drafted in Phillips' Draft that Phillips played against. Oliver doesn't have a list. Granted, they're not great, but they were draftable players. Phillips plays like a terror against some of them. Go watch it yourself. You know, you may be right. And every talent evaluate in and around the NFL may be wrong. You may, in fact, be the genius, but based on a couple logical fallacies and your inability to really handle the Khalil Mack example, I am gonna stick with you are probably wrong. 1
dave mcbride Posted May 24, 2019 Posted May 24, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: A fair point, but I've made it clear that I've been talking about Oliver's last two seasons. Sorry if I didin't make that completely clear. I don't care what he did as a rookie three years ago if he hasn't been able to repeat it, particularly against far lesser competition. Of course the argument is that they used him differently, but to be frank, upon watching that game I'm not seeing any major differences except in situational bases. Either way, I acknowledge that you think that Mack and Oliver are on par with one another accounting for their positions. Noted. I'll dissent on that one. I get that, but after that OSU game, Mack didn't do all that much against better competition (relatively speaking!), especially late in the season when a bowl game was on the line or in the bowl game (vs. Bowling Green [a game I watched closely] and SD State). The reason? Opponents built their whole game plan around avoiding him and running plays that didn't allow him to display his talents. Of course he had some tackles, but that's to be expected given his position. Teams do that all the time when they face an elite talent like Oliver or Mack, especially when the supporting cast isn't great. Bear in mind that Oliver was heavily recruited by top programs like Oklahoma but wanted to stay home. It wasn't like he hadn't been identified in HS as an elite player. 16 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: You need to stop assuming that someone hasn't watched a player if they don't agree with you. And yes, you're not living in reality if you expect a player to dominate all game, every game. Even Aaron Donald didn't dominate against ACC and Big East competition in college. You have your opinion and that's fine, but you are massively over-stating your case against him. He didn't "get skunked" against Texas Tech, nor has he been invisible against Power 5 teams as you claim. And if it makes you feel any better, not one of the players on your list got a draftable grade from me. Remember when Bryant McKinnie absolutely dominated Dwight Freeney in a Miami-Syracuse game in their draft year? There was a host of people on this board saying that we should stay far, far away from Freeney because of that game. Freeney has a good case for making the NFL HOF. Edited May 24, 2019 by dave mcbride 1
Ronin Posted May 24, 2019 Posted May 24, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: All projections are based on suppositions. That is why there are so many first round busts every year. It is the same reason judging players by the talent they face is not a workable model. Guys dominate draft eligible talent regularly and then bust at the NFL level, and then vice versa. In any event, if your problem is with judging player without "concrete" evidence, you should probably sit out the draft analysis game. I am not sure you understand my point. Let's image players on a scale of 1-10. To be drafted, a player needs to be 6-7 or above. The guys you are talking about are 5s. Now, if you put a 5 against a 7 in a College game, the 7 is going to be only slightly better--and that is because of parity (and that these guys are often drafted based on projection). But if you put a 5 against a 10, the 10 is going to blow them away. That is what Oliver did. I don't really mind the point you are making, I do understand. The mistake you are making is thinking that he didn't dominate based on your nit-picky critiques. Now, the problem with your nit-picking is that we are evaluating players and projecting what they can do at the next level. You are not critiquing strength, athleticism, etc. You are critiquing technique and other things that are corrected by NFL level coaching--something he hasn't had. I've been darn good at analyzing our picks over the years. I always take this kind of heat when projecting anything less than the highest of expectations. I'm not certain how you're defining your rating system, so I'll hold off on commenting on that. We'll have to disagree that Oliver "blew away" 5's tho. I see that he outplayed them, but not anywhere near to a level that would indicate to me that his draft narrative is what it is. Again, spot on on the highlighted stuff, but allow me to comment. Now, the problem with your nit-picking is that we are evaluating players and projecting what they can do at the next level. This is correct, I am using competition faced at the 1-on-1 level to project how he'll play in the NFL. Given that the jump in strength and speed, which is acknowledged regularly by NFL players, will be extreme, correct, I'm not seeing that ability for Oliver to match up as such. Let's leave it at that for now. You are not critiquing strength, athleticism, etc. That's not true. I'll argue that by saying that most are completely ignoring the leap in "strength and athleticism" that he'll face in the NFL. All of these assessments here, team, draft, etc., assume that the other 31 teams sat still, or that only our draft picks are going to all work out, while any failures can naturally only be on other teams. That much is apparent by the mindset, which is all but ubiquitous. I've fully accounted for it, on BOTH sides, not just the side that I'm trying to justify. I'll say this too, that too many times people overevaluate "strength and athleticism" to their detriment. It's happening now with Allen. Allen's status as a franchise QB isn't going in any way shape or form hinge primarily on his athleticism and strength (arm, if history doesn't spell that out in spades), it's going to hinge upon his ability as a passer. Since his athleticism and strength have run away from his ability as a passer, anyone that's conducting that analysis w/o compensating at such is missing the meat & potatoes of the situation entirely. Yet, that's what's happening. I keep repeating, what apparently everyone knows but doesn't want to recognize, that Allen's biggest issues are mental, an inability to read Ds and check down. Coaches can't really fix that. It's a historical truth. Not saying that it won't change, but the odds of it changing are far less than them not changing. It'll have to come from Allen, which is why my methodology would have been to build the NFL equivalent of the Atlantic Wall around Allen, which they didn't do. Allen's going to have to work this out on his own, something he's never done, in the NFL, in real time. You see that happening? Same for Oliver. To imply that there's not going to be an enormous leap in the speed and athleticism in the OL-men that Oliver faces is to ignore reality. You know that. We can't simply make a projection for Oliver based upon circumstances that won't exist in the NFL. Same for any player. You are critiquing technique and other things that are corrected by NFL level coaching--something he hasn't had. Again, my counterargument is that the underlying assumption here is that our coaching staff is better than the rest of those in the NFL. I don't believe that it is. If it were, then why haven't Lotulolei and Phillips, to name two, played better? If it were then why were we ranked 30th in red zone D last season? On the offensive side, if we were, then why couldn't the staff get anything but "only better than Rosen" who's already been written off, from Allen? I hear what people are saying,, but the reality ain't following suit. Thanks for the fantastic back-n-forth!! 18 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: You need to stop assuming that someone hasn't watched a player if they don't agree with you. And yes, you're not living in reality if you expect a player to dominate all game, every game. Even Aaron Donald didn't dominate against ACC and Big East competition in college. You have your opinion and that's fine, but you are massively over-stating your case against him. He didn't "get skunked" against Texas Tech, nor has he been invisible against Power 5 teams as you claim. And if it makes you feel any better, not one of the players on your list got a draftable grade from me. Doesn't matter whether they got a draftable grade by you, they were drafted, which means that by most draft analysts and scouting depts, they were. Otherwise we'll simply have to agree to disagree. Let's see where things stand come November. Edited May 24, 2019 by TaskersGhost
thebandit27 Posted May 24, 2019 Posted May 24, 2019 9 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: Remember when Bryant McKinnie absolutely dominated Dwight Freeney in a Miami-Syracuse game? There was a host of people on this board saying that we should stay far, far away from Freeney because of that game. Freeney has a good case for making the NFL HOF. Sure do. I also remember when people said to stay far away from Chris Jones coming out of Miss State because he didn't record a statistic against Alabama or Auburn and had a combined 3 tackles against Troy/Louisiana Tech/Kentucky. But folks that watched him closely knew better, and now he's one of the most dominant defensive players in the game. 3 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: Doesn't matter whether they got a draftable grade by you, they were drafted, which means that by most draft analysts and scouting depts, they were. Otherwise we'll simply have to agree to disagree. Let's see where things stand come November. Do you happen to see the irony in relying on NFL GM's expertise when it comes to late-round OLmen that have done nothing in the NFL, but questioning it when it comes to a top-10 pick that happens to be a 2-time All American? 1
Ronin Posted May 24, 2019 Posted May 24, 2019 19 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: You know, you may be right. And every talent evaluate in and around the NFL may be wrong. You may, in fact, be the genius, but based on a couple logical fallacies and your inability to really handle the Khalil Mack example, I am gonna stick with you are probably wrong. Well, I was on an island like that when I insisted that Spiller would bust. That was the case then. I was on an island like that when I stated plainly that no WR was worth the kind of trade-up we made to get Watkins ans that Watkins succeeded in college on the types of plays that simply don't work, and frankly aren't used, in the NFL in suggesting that while he may bnot bust but that he would not in any way be worth that idiotic trade up. That was the case then too. Similar with Lawson, Ragland, Manuel, and a bunch of others over the years. That was the case then too. I got exactly the same treatment then. So yeah, I'm used to it.
dave mcbride Posted May 24, 2019 Posted May 24, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: Well, I was on an island like that when I insisted that Spiller would bust. That was the case then. I was on an island like that when I stated plainly that no WR was worth the kind of trade-up we made to get Watkins ans that Watkins succeeded in college on the types of plays that simply don't work, and frankly aren't used, in the NFL in suggesting that while he may bnot bust but that he would not in any way be worth that idiotic trade up. That was the case then too. Similar with Lawson, Ragland, Manuel, and a bunch of others over the years. That was the case then too. I got exactly the same treatment then. So yeah, I'm used to it. I wasn't a fan of the Spiller pick, but it is the case that he was one of the best running backs in the league in 2012, averaging a whopping 6 ypc and 11 ypr for over 1700 yards from scrimmage. When you have at least one elite season, it's hard to call someone a bust. He was no Trent Richardson. Like a lot of NFL players, he had injuries that slowed him down, and moreover he was a good fit for Gailey's scheme--and Gailey left. He also wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed either. Edited May 24, 2019 by dave mcbride
Ronin Posted May 24, 2019 Posted May 24, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: Sure do. I also remember when people said to stay far away from Chris Jones coming out of Miss State because he didn't record a statistic against Alabama or Auburn and had a combined 3 tackles against Troy/Louisiana Tech/Kentucky. But folks that watched him closely knew better, and now he's one of the most dominant defensive players in the game. Do you happen to see the irony in relying on NFL GM's expertise when it comes to late-round OLmen that have done nothing in the NFL, but questioning it when it comes to a top-10 pick that happens to be a 2-time All American? Again, exceptions. Do you happen to see that exceptions are not things that can be used to establish norms? Anyway, I've gotta run. I'm done with this topic. We've beaten it to death. I understand the viewpoint. It's popular opinion vs. anything else. I get it. I'm simply not a conformist. Also, as Bills fans we've been thru this for years. As an exercise, go thru the 2017 draft and look at all the players that never anted up to their 1st-round status, and ask yourself why you think we're exempt. ALL of those players were chosen and almost categorically draft analysts talked about how they'd all help their teams to that extent. Yet, many haven't come close. And to be frank again, EVERYTHING is riding on their pick of Allen as such, who was the second worst passer in the league last season. If that situation doesn't materialize, make absolutely no mistake, there will be no encore for them and it's curtains, on to the next HC/GM. Doesn't matter what this draft class does if Allen doesn't work out soon. It's foolish to think that we're exempt. Otherwise, from NFL.com's own draft profile, in agreement with me in things that I've stated or implied, here are some of Oliver's negatives. I guess whomever compiled that for them is clueless as well. That against OL-men that he won't even see in the NFL. I think that those are significant although I acknowledge that you and most do not think that they are. What else can be said, agree to disagree. Lacks functional length Gets mauled by down blocks and double teams Struggles at times when offenses run downhill at him Gets clogged up against wide-bodies Unable to sustain early jolts into extended power Backdoors blocks in lateral pursuit rather than winning across the face Forced to work excessively at disengaging from blocks Failed to convert explosiveness into impressive sack totals 7 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: I wasn't a fan of the Spiller pick, That wasn't my point. Edited May 24, 2019 by TaskersGhost
dave mcbride Posted May 24, 2019 Posted May 24, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: Again, exceptions. Do you happen to see that exceptions are not things that can be used to establish norms? Anyway, I've gotta run. I'm done with this topic. We've beaten it to death. I understand the viewpoint. It's popular opinion vs. anything else. I get it. I'm simply not a conformist. Also, as Bills fans we've been thru this for years. As an exercise, go thru the 2017 draft and look at all the players that never anted up to their 1st-round status, and ask yourself why you think we're exempt. ALL of those players were chosen and almost categorically draft analysts talked about how they'd all help their teams to that extent. Yet, many haven't come close. It's foolish to think that we're exempt. Otherwise, from NFL.com's own draft profile, in agreement with me in things that I've stated or implied, here are some of Oliver's negatives. I guess whomever compiled that for them is clueless as well. That against OL-men that he won't even see in the NFL. I think that those are significant although I acknowledge that you and most do not think that they are. What else can be said, agree to disagree. Lacks functional length Gets mauled by down blocks and double teams Struggles at times when offenses run downhill at him Gets clogged up against wide-bodies Unable to sustain early jolts into extended power Backdoors blocks in lateral pursuit rather than winning across the face Forced to work excessively at disengaging from blocks Failed to convert explosiveness into impressive sack totals That wasn't my point. Then what was it? In reading your post, the point seemed to be that your projection acumen regarding Bills' draftees was well-nigh perfect, and that Spiller was a bust. I happen to think his case was more complicated than that simplified assessment. Edited May 24, 2019 by dave mcbride
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted May 24, 2019 Posted May 24, 2019 ...so as to truncate this to and fro "pee-pee contest", my Cliff Notes version is....Hughes is an ABOVE AVERAGE market performer who was extended at a BELOW AVERAGE market rate...so where is the beef?............ 2
Ronin Posted May 24, 2019 Posted May 24, 2019 Just now, dave mcbride said: Then what was it? In reading your post, the point seemed to be that your projection acumen about Bills' draftees was well-nigh perfect, and that Spiller was a bust. I happen to think his case was more complicated than that simplified assessment. The point was that I'm used to being "outnumbered" as such, and in a vast minority. If I weren't, then we'd be on a several season Super Bowl winning streak right now. We go thru this nonsense every year. Yet, Lawson, Ragland, Spiller, Manuel, Watkins, etc., none of which I liked, in the 1st round or otherwise. Almost categorically system players. No one sided with me on any of them except for perhaps Manuel to a reasonable extent. Literally, I cannot think of one single person anywhere, that agreed with me on Spiller or Watkins. Apparently I had my head so far up my ass back then that I was in perpetual darkness. Well, the 99.9% was flat out incorrect. My methodologies were perfectdly warranted, weren't they. I gotta call it here. PM me if you want to discuss more. I've really gotta let go here.
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