DE Jerry Hughes: Signs two-year extension

[K-9]

6 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Oh, I generally agree.  I just think Whaley trading for him when he was considered a bust and becoming a double digit sack guy for like $5million is more impressive.  

 

This year will will tell us about the McBeane regime.  But if you look at the last 2 years, they have one of the worst point differential in the nfl. 

Sorry boss. It wasn’t totally direct at you.  I just think McBeane gets treated with kid gloves.  They paid $11 million a season to a guy who has averaged 5 sacks the last four years.  It doesn’t seem to be some stroke of genius. 

Hughes is the 26th highest paid DE in the league according to Spotrac. Is he not well within the top 26 DEs in the league? To say he isn’t is specious at best. That being the case, how is that $11.5m a season a dumb thing?

[JaCrispy]

People opposed to the Hughes extension probably  thought Chris Kelsay was God. ?

Edited May 24, 2019 by JaCrispy

[3rdand12]

7 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

People opposed to the Hughes extension probably  thought Chris Kelsey was God. ?

wait.thats bit extreme. cuz no one thought that Kelsay was more than a role player like Lawson ....

[Ronin]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

By nature inside players are both aided on routine plays and limited on big plays by the congestion of players around them.

 

As a result the edge players usually have the chances to make game altering plays and that's why they get the big bucks to win matchups.

 

So yeah a MLB is critical in McD's defense but it's not necessarily that hard to find good ones so the position is of lesser import on the salary cap level.  Preston Brown lead the NFL in tackles in McD's defense.   Julian Stanford looked very good in place of Edmunds last season.    The action is funneled to the MLB and a dynamic one like Keuchly can really stand out there but they still don't have the cap value of a premier edge rusher.    

 

CJ Moseley got PAID this offseason but I don't expect that to change things on the whole for MLB's in FA.

 

 I'd certainly trade a 3rd and a 5th for Luke Keuchly's $10M cap hit and move Edmunds to an edge though.   If things deteriorate in Carolina this season.....and they may with Cam's shoulder issues.......and the Bills are in contention but Edmunds doesn't take huge steps I could see this being a huge mid-season trade possibility.

 

Hughes isn't one of the greats in the league but he's very effective and playing for half of what Frank Clark is getting in each of those seasons.   I think the risk was balking on signing Hughes early and maybe ending up paying $19M per over 5 years for this years version of Trey Flowers in UFA which is definitely poor value relative to Hughes, IMO.   

 

Well stated, some good points!

 

Sacks are definitely sexier which is at least part of the reason why pass-rushing DEs (and OLBs in a 3-4) get paid so much.  Sacks are also indirectly if not directly an additional indicator as to pass-pressure otherwise.  As you seem to imply in your Kuechly statement, elite MLBs are rare.  The Willis, Urlacher, Lewis types don't come around often.  Those around today include Kuechly, Moseley, Kendricks and maybe another one or two like Wagner.  Keep in mind too that while all teams change up their Ds and don't constantly play a 4-3 or 3-4, they do have a base D and only those with a base 4-3 would have need for a true MLB, so while pass-rushing DEs have room for two on every team, obviously there's less than one on average on a team.  

 

Having said that, I'd take a Kuechly or Moseley over a great DE first.   A void or below-average talent at MLB opens the defensive middle up against both run & pass, which circumvents pressure from the outsides, eh.  But again, it shouldn't be an either/or proposition.  A good team builder should quite easily be able to do both and much more.  Everyone's falling all over themself praising our FO but the reality is what it is at say DE, and when your best DE is entering his back-9 on a two-year extension, with no replacement on the roster, well, that speaks for itself.  

 

Unlike you I don't think that what we saw for Moseley will be unusual for his caliber of MLB, thing is that there just aren't a lot of them.  You can count on or about one hand how many there are.  There are a whole lot more DEs to "get paid" than MLBs by a country mile.  In fact, I'd say that one really good MLB of that caliber pops up every two or three years or so on average whereas every season there are at least one or two good pass-rushing DEs that end up in the draft.  The salaries are out of whack because every team needs two regardless of system, that's 64 contrasted with what, 12-15 MLBs, if that.  It also takes notably longer for a MLB to develop due to the added complexities of the position, which is no small matter.  As I've always maintained however, you don't need elite players to create a championship team.  All you need is a whole team full of 6-8 (1-to-10 scale) players and you're good.  Our problem right now is that we're chock full of 3-6's.

 

As to Edmunds, keep in mind there that he was the youngest player in the entire league last season.  One can only expect so much given that.  Give the kid a year or two to show up.  I think we'll be astonished, perhaps starting as soon as this season.  There's no way that a player like Stanford keeps pace with Edmunds and it's not fair to compare a 6-year NFL vet in the middle of his prime with the youngest player in the league, you know that, just sayin'.  

 

Edmunds was raw last season.  He's one of the very few draft picks by this admin that I've liked.   In fact I said in that draft that they should have taken him at 12th and kept our other four day 1/2 picks, rebuilt the lines, and then waited for this year to draft a QB like Lock, who I think will end up being better than Allen and will be a notably better NFL type passer, more towards Marino since he's not very mobile. We turned 4 day 1/2 picks and the first pick in the 3rd into two players, one of whom we could have had with our first pick.  That translates to four day1/2 picks for Allen.  If Allen flops then that's the end of Beane & McD.  They're the same passing types but Lock doesn't have Allen's issues in reading Ds and checking down.  But I digress...  Just trying to defend Edmunds as I think Edmunds will end up being "one of those" MLBs.  

 

Time will tell.  

 

 

[JaCrispy]

15 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

wait.thats bit extreme. cuz no one thought that Kelsay was more than a role player like Lawson ....

I should have mentioned sarcasm was intended...because it just seemed ridiculous  to me that some would be down on the extension, that doesn’t even pay him close to top DE money, even though he has consistently been a top player on our defenses.

Edited May 24, 2019 by JaCrispy

[Ronin]

7 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

So let me see what's going on in this thread about extending Jerry Hughes for 11.5 million a year.

Last year Jerry Hughes led the team in the following statistics:

Tackles for Loss - 13

QB Hits - 18

QB Sacks - 7

Forced Fumbles - 3

Led the team in QB pressures and was one of the league leaders.

Hughes was also 8th in Solo Tackles, all on a team whose defense was rated highly.

 

I can see questioning a lot of Beane/McDermott moves but this one seems pretty reasonable to me.

 

ps.  I can see posters concerns about the 2021 season but I would think that Hughes will be mentoring his replacement that year. 

Hughes will also be the veteran leader of the DL for these next 3 years.

 

It was a good re-signing but also a no-brainer.  I mean can you imagine what the front-7 would have looked like w/o Hughes?  
 

Starting, what, Murphy & Yarbrough?  2nd-string Lawson & a 7th-round rookie Johnston?  You can't go into the season with lofty expectations like that.  

 

I guess I just don't know what took 'em so long.  

[Ronin]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

I thought this would be one move that everyone agreed with. I guess not. Oh well. I expect our sacks to go up next season if Oliver lives up to his billing.

 

IMO everyone is expecting way too much from Oliver.  He had 3 sacks last season, two against East Carolina and one against Navy.  Navy had QBs that got sacked once every 7 dropbacks in an offense that's an anachronism of the '70s Sooners wishbone offense and something that's simply not seen in the NFL.  Both teams were 3-10 and sucked royally on offense.  Neither of those teams had any offensive linemen that will ever even sniff the NFL.  It's concerning.  The narrative on Oliver was a runaway narrative.  He didn't face a single G or C in college that will end up in the NFL as a starter.  Again, I find that to be highly concerning.  Either way, if he couldn't produce sacks against stiffs at G & C in the AAC then how is he going to do it in the NFL.  Just not seeing it.  

 

Phillips is notably better than Oliver by my analysis and assessment.  

Edited May 24, 2019 by TaskersGhost

[Stank_Nasty]

16 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

IMO everyone is expecting way too much from Oliver.  He had 3 sacks last season, two against East Carolina and one against Navy.  Navy had QBs that got sacked once every 7 dropbacks in an offense that's an anachronism of the '70s Sooners wishbone offense and something that's simply not seen in the NFL.  Both teams were 3-10 and sucked royally on offense.  Neither of those teams had any offensive linemen that will ever even sniff the NFL.  It's concerning.  The narrative on Oliver was a runaway narrative.  He didn't face a single G or C in college that will end up in the NFL as a starter.  Again, I find that to be highly concerning.  Either way, if he couldn't produce sacks against stiffs at G & C in the AAC then how is he going to do it in the NFL.  Just not seeing it.  

 

Phillips is notably better than Oliver by my analysis and assessment.  

Looks like somebody must have missed the 200 different articles explaining what his role was at Houston as opposed to what he’ll be asked to do for the bills. 

 

And sacks going up isn’t just dependent on Oliver’s raw numbers. It’s the fact that an Interior push makes Hughes MUCH more lethal coming around the edge. 

Edited May 24, 2019 by Stank_Nasty

[Aussie Joe]

6 hours ago, HappyDays said:

I thought this would be one move that everyone agreed with. 

 

That is an impossibility..

 

Allen could win the SB this year, and someone would say they would have won it last year with Mahomes..

 

 

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

IMO everyone is expecting way too much from Oliver.  He had 3 sacks last season, two against East Carolina and one against Navy.  Navy had QBs that got sacked once every 7 dropbacks in an offense that's an anachronism of the '70s Sooners wishbone offense and something that's simply not seen in the NFL.  Both teams were 3-10 and sucked royally on offense.  Neither of those teams had any offensive linemen that will ever even sniff the NFL.  It's concerning.  The narrative on Oliver was a runaway narrative.  He didn't face a single G or C in college that will end up in the NFL as a starter.  Again, I find that to be highly concerning.  Either way, if he couldn't produce sacks against stiffs at G & C in the AAC then how is he going to do it in the NFL.  Just not seeing it.  

 

Phillips is notably better than Oliver by my analysis and assessment.  

 

Last season he was asked to play as the nose. Go and watch his production (against top competition too) when he was playing 3 technique the two previous years. Oliver is going to be an absolute beast. 

[3rdand12]

8 hours ago, JaCrispy said:

I should have mentioned sarcasm was intended...because it just seemed ridiculous  to me that some would be down on the extension, that doesn’t even pay him close to top DE money, even though he has consistently been a top player on our defenses.

and mine had sarcasm too. right at the very "end"

[formerlyofCtown]

22 hours ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

There are 10 pages because lots of people seem to have to comment on everything for as mundane as many of their comments are.  That's the nature of forums, particularly in the offseason.   

 

Hughes is a very good DE.  He's just not elite.  But to your point, shouldn't Beane have already lined up his successor, or at least a "bookend" already?  They haven't drafted a decent edge-rusher on their watch.  For as important as that position is I find it to be problematic in building a winning team much less a playoff competitive team.  

 

Relying on interior linemen, particularly undersized ones like Oliver, doesn't seem to be the ticket to me.  Phillips is bigger than Oliver and played far better competition in college and put up comparable numbers against that level of competition, yet he didn't shine like that last season.  In fact, after watching recently, Phillips video looks far better than Olivers against power-5 competition.  As I've pointed out, he essentially got skunked against the only power-5 competition that he faced this season.  His play in those two games is absolutely nothing like his draft profile reads.   Beane and our scouting staff should taken a half-hour to watch those before drafting him IMO.  He didn't face one G or C that got drafted in the past two drafts.  Watch those two videos for yourself, they're only about 10 minutes apiece.  Anyway, Phillips faced a number of Gs and Cs that got drafted and played well against them.  

 

And what if Hughes goes down?  Then what?  We're looking at what, Murphy and Yarbrough starting?  With whom, Lawson and 7th-round rookie Johnston as the backups?  

 

That seem wise to you?  

 

Our defense may have been ranked 2nd in yards last season, but at least some of that had to do with the fact that we gave up the worst starting field position in the league.  Otherwise, we were ranked 30th in Red Zone D and 18th in scoring D.  To me that's highly concerning.  If Oliver's not all that or if Phillips doesn't make a massive leap, I don't see things ending well.  

One of the top DEs in the game but not elite?  

 

You name is quite appropriate given your analysis is about as good as Taskers.

Edited May 24, 2019 by formerlyofCtown

[HappyDays]

10 hours ago, TaskersGhost said:

It's concerning.

 

10 hours ago, TaskersGhost said:

Again, I find that to be highly concerning.

 

Oh, HighFootballIQ. You can't help yourself. How many usernames did you have at BBMB? Anyone who used to post there will instantly recognize this troll.

Edited May 24, 2019 by HappyDays

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

On 5/23/2019 at 8:49 AM, TaskersGhost said:

 

There are 10 pages because lots of people seem to have to comment on everything for as mundane as many of their comments are.  That's the nature of forums, particularly in the offseason.   

 

Hughes is a very good DE.  He's just not elite.  But to your point, shouldn't Beane have already lined up his successor, or at least a "bookend" already?  They haven't drafted a decent edge-rusher on their watch.  For as important as that position is I find it to be problematic in building a winning team much less a playoff competitive team.  

 

Relying on interior linemen, particularly undersized ones like Oliver, doesn't seem to be the ticket to me.  Phillips is bigger than Oliver and played far better competition in college and put up comparable numbers against that level of competition, yet he didn't shine like that last season.  In fact, after watching recently, Phillips video looks far better than Olivers against power-5 competition.  As I've pointed out, he essentially got skunked against the only power-5 competition that he faced this season.  His play in those two games is absolutely nothing like his draft profile reads.   Beane and our scouting staff should taken a half-hour to watch those before drafting him IMO.  He didn't face one G or C that got drafted in the past two drafts.  Watch those two videos for yourself, they're only about 10 minutes apiece.  Anyway, Phillips faced a number of Gs and Cs that got drafted and played well against them.  

 

And what if Hughes goes down?  Then what?  We're looking at what, Murphy and Yarbrough starting?  With whom, Lawson and 7th-round rookie Johnston as the backups?  

 

That seem wise to you?  

 

Our defense may have been ranked 2nd in yards last season, but at least some of that had to do with the fact that we gave up the worst starting field position in the league.  Otherwise, we were ranked 30th in Red Zone D and 18th in scoring D.  To me that's highly concerning.  If Oliver's not all that or if Phillips doesn't make a massive leap, I don't see things ending well.  

 

I was really feeling this comment when I first read it.  Then I looked at some of the stats against power 5 teams, particularly the game against Texas Tech. Then I watched the video.  Holy cow are you wrong--he got double and triple teamed every play and still managed to affect 50% of the snaps in a major way.  The whole offensive game plan was geared at avoiding him. 

[thebandit27]

4 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

I was really feeling this comment when I first read it.  Then I looked at some of the stats against power 5 teams, particularly the game against Texas Tech. Then I watched the video.  Holy cow are you wrong--he got double and triple teamed every play and still managed to affect 50% of the snaps in a major way.  The whole offensive game plan was geared at avoiding him. 

 

Here are Oliver's stats from games versus Power 5 teams in college:

 

2016

Oklahoma - 5 solo tackles, 2 TFLs

2017

Arizona - 8 solo tackles, 1.5 TFLs

Texas Tech - 2 solo tackles, 1 TFL

2018

Arizona - 3 solo tackles, 0.5 TFLs

Texas Tech - 4 solo tackles, 1 TFL

 

Total - 5 games, 22 solo tackles, 6 TFLs

 

On a per-game basis, he produced more solo tackles per game against Power 5 teams than Quinnen Williams did in his Alabama career, but not quite as many TFLs. Now consider that Quinnen plays on a defense that features NFL talent at every level, and Oliver is more or less the only guaranteed NFL prospect on that Houston defensive unit.

 

Do with that information whatever you will...

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

4 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Here are Oliver's stats from games versus Power 5 teams in college:

 

2016

Oklahoma - 5 solo tackles, 2 TFLs

2017

Arizona - 8 solo tackles, 1.5 TFLs

Texas Tech - 2 solo tackles, 1 TFL

2018

Arizona - 3 solo tackles, 0.5 TFLs

Texas Tech - 4 solo tackles, 1 TFL

 

Total - 5 games, 22 solo tackles, 6 TFLs

 

On a per-game basis, he produced more solo tackles per game against Power 5 teams than Quinnen Williams did in his Alabama career, but not quite as many TFLs. Now consider that Quinnen plays on a defense that features NFL talent at every level, and Oliver is more or less the only guaranteed NFL prospect on that Houston defensive unit.

 

Do with that information whatever you will...

 

Man, watch the game--it's on Youtube.  He was a wrecking ball. It was almost comical seeing him surrounded by three guys.  And to still get that kind of production is crazy. 

Edited May 24, 2019 by JoshAllenHasBigHands

[C.Biscuit97]

4 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Man, watch the game--it's on Youtube.  He was a wrecking ball. It was almost comical seeing him surrounded by three guys.  And to still get that kind of production is crazy. 

Agreed. Oliver was completely misused.  It’s also not like he was at Clemson or Bama surrounded by multiple high draft picks.  He was the only guy.

 

a stat Sal C had that blew my mind was Kyle Williams was the only DT to have a sack last season!  

[Ronin]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Last season he was asked to play as the nose. Go and watch his production (against top competition too) when he was playing 3 technique the two previous years. Oliver is going to be an absolute beast. 

 

That's the narrative.  We'll find out soon.  Certainly hope I'm wrong.  

 

Either way, what I saw from Phillips, clearly against tougher competition, man-on-man as well, I was more impressed.  3-technique, or not, against Arizona and Texas Tech this past season, even in man-on-man I found him to be unimpressive.  Watch those videos of him.  Give me the time signature for the plays that you think he played like you're saying, in man-to-man, nothing more.  Role doesn't matter in those situations, and he was  horrible on double teams, which he'll see frequently, 3-technique (which is the role as of now) or otherwise.  Phillips is bigger and he had trouble.  

[thebandit27]

20 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Man, watch the game--it's on Youtube.  He was a wrecking ball. It was almost comical seeing him surrounded by three guys.  And to still get that kind of production is crazy. 

 

I've watched every snap of Oliver's college career multiple times.

 

I had him as my #1 overall player in the draft, because not only was he productive, he's an outrageously good athlete for a man his size, and his upside is that of a true impact pass rusher that teams have to game plan against every time he's on the field.

 

I wanted to simply post the numbers without injecting any opinion.

[Bray Wyatt]

Just now, thebandit27 said:

 

I've watched every snap of Oliver's college career multiple times.

 

I had him as my #1 overall player in the draft, because not only was he productive, he's an outrageously good athlete for a man his size, and his upside is that of a true impact pass rusher that teams have to game plan against every time he's on the field.

 

I wanted to simply post the numbers without injecting any opinion.

 

I think Oliver said he could have ran a 4.6 40 if he thought it would have mattered (something along those lines), thats insane