Bookie Man Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 21 minutes ago, Rocket94 said: How shall I say it? Bruce was a generational talent...larger than life at times. He evoked a much larger response! Omnipotence! Yes Bruce is a legend. But not sure what that has to do with a Hughes chant. Would it be disrespectful to Bruce if Hughes had a similar sack chant?
Rocket94 Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 Just now, R Y G A R said: Yes Bruce is a legend. But not sure what that has to do with a Hughes chant. Would it be disrespectful to Bruce if Hughes had a similar sack chant? No...right on. What I was getting at, was that Bruce was just Bruce. He exuded that kind of attention. Hopefully if enough people read this they can start a chant for Hughes! 1
VW82 Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 (edited) This is perfect. Exactly what I'm sure many of us were hoping for. Gotta say, I grow more impressed with McBeane with each transaction. It's so much more fun cheering for a team that isn't incompetent when making player personnel decisions. Edited May 23, 2019 by VW82
transplantbillsfan Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 On 5/21/2019 at 1:55 AM, Buffalo30 said: Maybe now some fans can stop being so nervous about the DE position. Who's our long term answer opposite of Hughes? The E in DE stands for End. There are 2 Ends to a Defensive Line. Who's going to play opposite of Hughes and be productive for the next few years? DE is still probably our biggest need going into the 2020 regular season.
The Now Moment Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 5 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said: Who's our long term answer opposite of Hughes? The E in DE stands for End. There are 2 Ends to a Defensive Line. Who's going to play opposite of Hughes and be productive for the next few years? DE is still probably our biggest need going into the 2020 regular season. Ok...and they have an entire offseason plus to find a guy to fill 1 spot...nothing to be nervous about. With what Beane has done and attempted to do this offseason, I think we can trust that he will do what’s in his power to fill the hole. Some were losing their heads having only one player on the books at the position for next year and now we have a starting quality player on the books for two years. Dont know now why you were talking to me like a toddler. 1 player isn’t exactly hard to fill especially when you look at potential free agents next season and potential draftable players at the position. Beane filled many holes in one offseason. I think he can manage adding this piece next year haha.
BADOLBILZ Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 13 hours ago, GunnerBill said: Yes it is his age. When the end comes for pass rushers it comes quickly. I keep quoting the Mario Williams example and the Brian Orapko example from last year but he was still a pretty productive player in 2017 and then a total non factor in 2018. When the wall comes with Jerry (who I like a lot though I think talk of elite or upper echelon is a little over blown - he is a top 15 pass rusher not a top 5 guy - not dissimilar to Orakpo actually) I can see it coming quickly. He had maybe his best season as a Bill in 2018 so it would be a stretch to think it might come in 2019 but anyone who claims to know he will be equally as productive in 2020 or 2021 when he is 32 and 33 is reaching in my view. At the price - which I agree by the way in $ per year is a good one - I am prepared to bear that risk for one year but two feels too much. My preference would be for the Bills to have given him new money now - in the form of a signing bonus amortised for cap purposes - that makes him count more on the cap in 2019 but reduces the dead money for 2021. If it is just a totally unaffected final year of his old deal plus two new years that are all but fully guaranteed then I think it is a bigger risk that I'd have taken. Now Jerry might still be super productive in 2021 at the age of 33 and prove well worth his $11m but nobody can tell me now that they know he will be. And that to me feels like a punt. I am not saying it is a bad contract just a risky one... and a risk beyond what I'd have taken. It's definitely a risk but your top pass rusher is second only to your QB in value, IMO. If you are going to exceed a comfortable risk level it's there. Was it necessary to do now? I mean, if they think that the addition of Oliver is going to push more QB's into Hughes' grasp then it makes sense. I think the fact that 37 year old Cameron Wake got 3 years $23M and $10M guaranteed after a 6 sack season says a good deal about the hunger for pass rushers around the league. 2
Ronin Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 10 hours ago, R Y G A R said: I wasn't comparing them as players. I just thought it would be cool. It's not like I'm saying he should change his number to #78. Bruce is an all time NFL great. It'd be the same as if say Hughes played FB and when he caught a pass, the crowd would do a HUUGGES chant, like Dallas did for Moose Johnston. I was just using the BRUCE chant for comparison, not the players, if that makes sense. I hear ya, but implicit in my comment was simply that it would be similar to doing a "chant" for say any player that doesn't regularly produce. It loses a little something if things don't happen regularly enough. I could see it for Kyle because he was such a disruptive force that sacks simply didn't epitomize his play enough, but when he got them it was like icing on the cake and would have been sort of a recognition for the three plays prior in that game where he single-handedly blew up the play. So too, Johnston was a role player, sort of like Tasker, but obviously in a different way. When Dallas back then really needed a yard, Moose would come in and essentially get it. Same thing with Bruce, or Tasker with a TD or big coverage, but with Hughes, as I see it, when, as was the case last season, you sack Darnold, Bortles, Mariotta, Cousins, and Tannehill as your sack production in wins, and against teams that really weren't much better than you and in several cases worse, it loses a little bit. A lot of that simply has to do with the status of the team now. Today fans go to the games hoping to win. Back then we went to the games expecting to win, and almost always did at home. In the playoffs, from '88 - '95 we didn't lose a home playoff game. BTW, I posted that just thinking to myself now. Either way, I didn't mean it critically, I thought you were seriously wondering why it didn't happen.
GunnerBill Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: It's definitely a risk but your top pass rusher is second only to your QB in value, IMO. If you are going to exceed a comfortable risk level it's there. Was it necessary to do now? I mean, if they think that the addition of Oliver is going to push more QB's into Hughes' grasp then it makes sense. I think the fact that 37 year old Cameron Wake got 3 years $23M and $10M guaranteed after a 6 sack season says a good deal about the hunger for pass rushers around the league. I agree in positional value and I like them doing it now. As I say I await with interest the detail contract breakdown. I would hope that some of that new money has been paid upfront (which presumably Hughes would not object to) as a signing bonus that can be spread across the three years meaning he counts more against the 2019 cap - we have the space and the major signing phases are done so don't see a downside to it - and then is a manageable risk in 2021. Edited May 23, 2019 by GunnerBill
Ronin Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: It's definitely a risk but your top pass rusher is second only to your QB in value, IMO. If you are going to exceed a comfortable risk level it's there. Was it necessary to do now? I mean, if they think that the addition of Oliver is going to push more QB's into Hughes' grasp then it makes sense. I think the fact that 37 year old Cameron Wake got 3 years $23M and $10M guaranteed after a 6 sack season says a good deal about the hunger for pass rushers around the league. Don't you think that a good MLB is more critical? I mean if that middle is "wide-open" it really wreaks havoc with your D. Point well taken however, you need a solid outside pass-rush as well either way. Not sure we have that, but why not? Poor planning appears to be the reason. That and a reliance on a player like Trent Murphy. I don't share your (and everyone's) optimism on Oliver. He played horrifically weak competition and essentially got skunked against the only two power-5 teams that he played against. He was even first defensively on his own team, not even close. A highlight reel of games in two seasons against teams none of which won more than 3 games and the likes of Rice, Tulsa, and East Carolina is problematic. He faced no OL-men that got drafted in '18 or '19. Phillips did and his production against a level of competition, many of the Gs and Cs he played against got drafted, was comparable. Yet, he was no force last season and he's bigger. I think that fans will be disappointed. I think it was a horrible draft pick despite the wealth of narrative which frankly, I simply don't understand after watching Oliver's every-snap vids against Texas Tech and Arizona this past season. Edited May 23, 2019 by TaskersGhost
SoCal Deek Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 Why are there 10 pages on this topic? The Bills have the cash and Hughes is by far the best, possibly only, pass rusher they have! Pay this guy and see if we can get his successor on the roster in the next two drafts. Where’s the debate here? 1
Ronin Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 17 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Why are there 10 pages on this topic? The Bills have the cash and Hughes is by far the best, possibly only, pass rusher they have! Pay this guy and see if we can get his successor on the roster in the next two drafts. Where’s the debate here? There are 10 pages because lots of people seem to have to comment on everything for as mundane as many of their comments are. That's the nature of forums, particularly in the offseason. Hughes is a very good DE. He's just not elite. But to your point, shouldn't Beane have already lined up his successor, or at least a "bookend" already? They haven't drafted a decent edge-rusher on their watch. For as important as that position is I find it to be problematic in building a winning team much less a playoff competitive team. Relying on interior linemen, particularly undersized ones like Oliver, doesn't seem to be the ticket to me. Phillips is bigger than Oliver and played far better competition in college and put up comparable numbers against that level of competition, yet he didn't shine like that last season. In fact, after watching recently, Phillips video looks far better than Olivers against power-5 competition. As I've pointed out, he essentially got skunked against the only power-5 competition that he faced this season. His play in those two games is absolutely nothing like his draft profile reads. Beane and our scouting staff should taken a half-hour to watch those before drafting him IMO. He didn't face one G or C that got drafted in the past two drafts. Watch those two videos for yourself, they're only about 10 minutes apiece. Anyway, Phillips faced a number of Gs and Cs that got drafted and played well against them. And what if Hughes goes down? Then what? We're looking at what, Murphy and Yarbrough starting? With whom, Lawson and 7th-round rookie Johnston as the backups? That seem wise to you? Our defense may have been ranked 2nd in yards last season, but at least some of that had to do with the fact that we gave up the worst starting field position in the league. Otherwise, we were ranked 30th in Red Zone D and 18th in scoring D. To me that's highly concerning. If Oliver's not all that or if Phillips doesn't make a massive leap, I don't see things ending well.
C.Biscuit97 Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 10 hours ago, VW82 said: This is perfect. Exactly what I'm sure many of us were hoping for. Gotta say, I grow more impressed with McBeane with each transaction. It's so much more fun cheering for a team that isn't incompetent when making player personnel decisions. I’d probably give more credit to the previous regime that acquired Hughes for Kelvin Sheppard, when he cost half as much and put up double digit sacks. I get that fans want to be optimistic. I got tickets to four games this year (most ever). But some of you act like McBeane is some god for pretty pedestrian moves. 1
Bill from NYC Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: I’d probably give more credit to the previous regime that acquired Hughes for Kelvin Sheppard, when he cost half as much and put up double digit sacks. I get that fans want to be optimistic. I got tickets to four games this year (most ever). But some of you act like McBeane is some god for pretty pedestrian moves. I can't think of a reason not to like this particular deal. The price tag was relatively small and the position is just so important. Keeping Hughes might enable the Bills to not have to use a 1st round pick on a DE in 2020, thus enabling them to take one of the many lightening fast, sure handed receivers who are made to order for a QB with an arm like Allen. I have been very critical about many of the Bill's strikingly stupid decisions over the years and I am here to proclaim that extending Hughes was (imo of course) a wonderful move. 3 1
BADOLBILZ Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 1 hour ago, GunnerBill said: I agree in positional value and I like them doing it now. As I say I await with interest the detail contract breakdown. I would hope that some of that new money has been paid upfront (which presumably Hughes would not object to) as a signing bonus that can be spread across the three years meaning he counts more against the 2019 cap - we have the space and the major signing phases are done so don't see a downside to it - and then is a manageable risk in 2021. Yeah I know what you are saying.........if they guaranteed all of that AFTER this year's salary it's nearly a 3 year fully guaranteed deal because they aren't cutting him this summer. I am guessing that's what it is though. IMO this late in the game there isn't much incentive for an-in demand player to take 2019 guarantees to get a short extension like that. That would be like accepting a 1.5 year extension because the team could save cap space cutting him after the 2020 season. But hopefully some of it is......that would be nice. I think the trade-off is he and his agent's belief that they would certainly get a 3 year deal in FA if a guy like Wake did. Hughes' deal ends when Tre White's 5th year option ends. That also might have been important to Beane right now.
BADOLBILZ Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 1 hour ago, TaskersGhost said: Don't you think that a good MLB is more critical? I mean if that middle is "wide-open" it really wreaks havoc with your D. Point well taken however, you need a solid outside pass-rush as well either way. Not sure we have that, but why not? Poor planning appears to be the reason. That and a reliance on a player like Trent Murphy. I don't share your (and everyone's) optimism on Oliver. He played horrifically weak competition and essentially got skunked against the only two power-5 teams that he played against. He was even first defensively on his own team, not even close. A highlight reel of games in two seasons against teams none of which won more than 3 games and the likes of Rice, Tulsa, and East Carolina is problematic. He faced no OL-men that got drafted in '18 or '19. Phillips did and his production against a level of competition, many of the Gs and Cs he played against got drafted, was comparable. Yet, he was no force last season and he's bigger. I think that fans will be disappointed. I think it was a horrible draft pick despite the wealth of narrative which frankly, I simply don't understand after watching Oliver's every-snap vids against Texas Tech and Arizona this past season. By nature inside players are both aided on routine plays and limited on big plays by the congestion of players around them. As a result the edge players usually have the chances to make game altering plays and that's why they get the big bucks to win matchups. So yeah a MLB is critical in McD's defense but it's not necessarily that hard to find good ones so the position is of lesser import on the salary cap level. Preston Brown lead the NFL in tackles in McD's defense. Julian Stanford looked very good in place of Edmunds last season. The action is funneled to the MLB and a dynamic one like Keuchly can really stand out there but they still don't have the cap value of a premier edge rusher. CJ Moseley got PAID this offseason but I don't expect that to change things on the whole for MLB's in FA. I'd certainly trade a 3rd and a 5th for Luke Keuchly's $10M cap hit and move Edmunds to an edge though. If things deteriorate in Carolina this season.....and they may with Cam's shoulder issues.......and the Bills are in contention but Edmunds doesn't take huge steps I could see this being a huge mid-season trade possibility. Hughes isn't one of the greats in the league but he's very effective and playing for half of what Frank Clark is getting in each of those seasons. I think the risk was balking on signing Hughes early and maybe ending up paying $19M per over 5 years for this years version of Trey Flowers in UFA which is definitely poor value relative to Hughes, IMO. 3 1
VW82 Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: I’d probably give more credit to the previous regime that acquired Hughes for Kelvin Sheppard, when he cost half as much and put up double digit sacks. I get that fans want to be optimistic. I got tickets to four games this year (most ever). But some of you act like McBeane is some god for pretty pedestrian moves. Nowhere did I say they were gods. I said I’m growing more impressed with each transaction and that they weren’t incompetent. That’s quite the reach you made. Obviously there have been misses. They way they handled the QB position last year was just awful. Many of the decisions they made last off season were terrible, but they appear to be getting better. What I like the most is they seem to be building an identity with tough minded, character guys. No divas. No agenda guys. They had a rebuilding plan and they executed it, and even lucked out and made the playoffs for the first time this century. On the whole, it’s been impressive. Obviously everything depends on Allen’s development and I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t nervous about that (especially with the way our other QB decisions have gone). There’s hope for him though, and now at least we’ve given him help. I’m the meantime, we’ll be a tough minded defensive team that good teams aren’t going to like playing. We’ll be in most of the games, playing hard and being competitive, which as a fan is all you can ask for really. 1
C.Biscuit97 Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 4 hours ago, Bill from NYC said: I can't think of a reason not to like this particular deal. The price tag was relatively small and the position is just so important. Keeping Hughes might enable the Bills to not have to use a 1st round pick on a DE in 2020, thus enabling them to take one of the many lightening fast, sure handed receivers who are made to order for a QB with an arm like Allen. I have been very critical about many of the Bill's strikingly stupid decisions over the years and I am here to proclaim that extending Hughes was (imo of course) a wonderful move. Oh, I generally agree. I just think Whaley trading for him when he was considered a bust and becoming a double digit sack guy for like $5million is more impressive. This year will will tell us about the McBeane regime. But if you look at the last 2 years, they have one of the worst point differential in the nfl. 1 hour ago, VW82 said: Nowhere did I say they were gods. I said I’m growing more impressed with each transaction and that they weren’t incompetent. That’s quite the reach you made. Obviously there have been misses. They way they handled the QB position last year was just awful. Many of the decisions they made last off season were terrible, but they appear to be getting better. What I like the most is they seem to be building an identity with tough minded, character guys. No divas. No agenda guys. They had a rebuilding plan and they executed it, and even lucked out and made the playoffs for the first time this century. On the whole, it’s been impressive. Obviously everything depends on Allen’s development and I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t nervous about that (especially with the way our other QB decisions have gone). There’s hope for him though, and now at least we’ve given him help. I’m the meantime, we’ll be a tough minded defensive team that good teams aren’t going to like playing. We’ll be in most of the games, playing hard and being competitive, which as a fan is all you can ask for really. Sorry boss. It wasn’t totally direct at you. I just think McBeane gets treated with kid gloves. They paid $11 million a season to a guy who has averaged 5 sacks the last four years. It doesn’t seem to be some stroke of genius. 1
John from Riverside Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 5 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: I’d probably give more credit to the previous regime that acquired Hughes for Kelvin Sheppard, when he cost half as much and put up double digit sacks. I get that fans want to be optimistic. I got tickets to four games this year (most ever). But some of you act like McBeane is some god for pretty pedestrian moves. I think more like common sense moves.....and not "head scratchers" To me that is actually pretty exciting......but thats just me 1
ColoradoBills Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 So let me see what's going on in this thread about extending Jerry Hughes for 11.5 million a year. Last year Jerry Hughes led the team in the following statistics: Tackles for Loss - 13 QB Hits - 18 QB Sacks - 7 Forced Fumbles - 3 Led the team in QB pressures and was one of the league leaders. Hughes was also 8th in Solo Tackles, all on a team whose defense was rated highly. I can see questioning a lot of Beane/McDermott moves but this one seems pretty reasonable to me. ps. I can see posters concerns about the 2021 season but I would think that Hughes will be mentoring his replacement that year. Hughes will also be the veteran leader of the DL for these next 3 years. 2
HappyDays Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 I thought this would be one move that everyone agreed with. I guess not. Oh well. I expect our sacks to go up next season if Oliver lives up to his billing.
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