JohnC Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 9 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said: Pretty good read - 11 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said: Pretty good read - https://hockeybuzz.com/blog/Ryan-Wilson/Growing-trend-in-how-Pittsburgh-and-Buffalo-are-building-their-defense/177/100456 Growing trend in how Pittsburgh and Buffalo are building their defense Growing trend in how Pittsburgh and Buffalo are building their defense Odds are that either Risto or McCabe or both could be traded for second line help. But if the GM decided to keep both defensemen because the return on each player wasn't satisfactory that wouldn't necessarily be bad a outcome. The top two pairings could be Dahlin/Montour and McCabe/Risto. The third and fourth pairings could be made up from some combination of Pilut, Miller, Jokiharju and Bogo. Overall, that would be quite a strong and deep unit. The benefit of having depth on a unit is that you have options. 1
JohnC Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 Not that long ago I was listening to WGR and one of the hosts was talking about what a prospective Risto trade could get you. The host was proposing a straight up trade with Tampa for Anthony Cirelli. The host felt that the young center was on a steady upward trajectory as a very good second line center. For those who are far more knowledgeable about players in the league what say you? (I believe he may have a no trade clause so if that is so it might be a complication.)
Alaska Darin Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 2 hours ago, JohnC said: Not that long ago I was listening to WGR and one of the hosts was talking about what a prospective Risto trade could get you. The host was proposing a straight up trade with Tampa for Anthony Cirelli. The host felt that the young center was on a steady upward trajectory as a very good second line center. For those who are far more knowledgeable about players in the league what say you? (I believe he may have a no trade clause so if that is so it might be a complication.) That's not a great return. Cirelli is a nice player but he's been a 3rd line center and doesn't appear to be ready to contribute at a high level offensively. Good skater and defender. His ceiling is supposedly Patrice Bergeron light (my current favorite NHLer), so that would be great and his cap hit would save the Sabres almost $5m but we'd have to get much more to make the deal. He's on his ELC, so I doubt he has a NMC.
JohnC Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said: That's not a great return. Cirelli is a nice player but he's been a 3rd line center and doesn't appear to be ready to contribute at a high level offensively. Good skater and defender. His ceiling is supposedly Patrice Bergeron light (my current favorite NHLer), so that would be great and his cap hit would save the Sabres almost $5m but we'd have to get much more to make the deal. He's on his ELC, so I doubt he has a NMC. Thanks for the opinion. It seems to me that a third line center on a very good team would fit in with being a second line center for the Sabres. The person who was commenting about him stated that his stats have steadily improved showing an upward trajectory for the young player. My sense is that the GM is wants to trade Risto but won't take the plunge unless there is a good return. The ROR deal haunts him and should spook him from making another precipitous move. The McCabe issue of should he stay or go is another interesting issue that will have to be addressed. If the GM stays pat the pairing of McCabe with Risto makes for an interesting combo. 1 minute ago, JohnC said: Thanks for the opinion. It seems to me that a third line center on a very good team would fit in with being a second line center for the Sabres. The person who was commenting about him stated that his stats have steadily improved showing an upward trajectory for the young player. My sense is that the GM wants to trade Risto but won't take the plunge unless there is a good return. The ROR deal haunts him and should spook him from making another precipitous move. The McCabe issue of should he stay or go is another interesting issue that will have to be addressed. If the GM stays pat the pairing of McCabe with Risto makes for an interesting combo.
Alaska Darin Posted July 14, 2019 Posted July 14, 2019 16 hours ago, JohnC said: Thanks for the opinion. It seems to me that a third line center on a very good team would fit in with being a second line center for the Sabres. The person who was commenting about him stated that his stats have steadily improved showing an upward trajectory for the young player. My sense is that the GM is wants to trade Risto but won't take the plunge unless there is a good return. The ROR deal haunts him and should spook him from making another precipitous move. The McCabe issue of should he stay or go is another interesting issue that will have to be addressed. If the GM stays pat the pairing of McCabe with Risto makes for an interesting combo. I agree with with the perspective that Cirelli is a 2/3 center type. At this moment, he's simply not enough to trade Risto straight up for. It'd would have to be something like Cirelli, a top prospect, and a first. 1
JohnC Posted July 14, 2019 Posted July 14, 2019 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said: I agree with with the perspective that Cirelli is a 2/3 center type. At this moment, he's simply not enough to trade Risto straight up for. It'd would have to be something like Cirelli, a top prospect, and a first. I have openly stated that on the Risto trade I go back and forth. Is he a physical talent that needs better coaching to maximize his performance or is he a player whose physical talents will tantalize you but his play will be undercut by his lack of cerebral play? I just don't know? There is another aspect to a proposed trade that goes beyond matching talent for talent. Can a trade of a bigger talent for a lesser talent still upgrade your team because it better balances out your roster? Is it smart to shed some excess talent on a defensive unit to improve an area where you have a major deficit on the second line, especially at center. My sense (guess) is that the GM is going to trade Risto. He is biding his time and is willing to wait. He rushed in the ROR episode and it turned out disastrously. Not because he traded him but because he rushed to do it and hurt his leverage. The Risto and even possible McCabe trade possibilities are intriguing. This offseason has been productive and there is still more to come. Edited July 14, 2019 by JohnC editing
K-9 Posted July 14, 2019 Posted July 14, 2019 How about Risto to Edmonton straight up for Nugent-Hopkins? I’d do that. 2
Alaska Darin Posted July 14, 2019 Posted July 14, 2019 8 minutes ago, K-9 said: How about Risto to Edmonton straight up for Nugent-Hopkins? I’d do that. I think I would too.
JohnC Posted July 14, 2019 Posted July 14, 2019 29 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said: I think I would too. What happened to Puljujarvi? Was he rushed and ruined?
Alaska Darin Posted July 14, 2019 Posted July 14, 2019 1 hour ago, JohnC said: What happened to Puljujarvi? Was he rushed and ruined? Multiple failures: 1. OVERDRAFTED 2. Rushed to North America 3. Didn't speak English 4. Rushed to the NHL 5. Ken Hitchcock 6. Injuries I'd take him if the asking price was low because it feels a bit " Strome-ish" to me.
JohnC Posted July 14, 2019 Posted July 14, 2019 49 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said: Multiple failures: 1. OVERDRAFTED 2. Rushed to North America 3. Didn't speak English 4. Rushed to the NHL 5. Ken Hitchcock 6. Injuries I'd take him if the asking price was low because it feels a bit " Strome-ish" to me. Although it is not an unusual occurrence missing on a highly drafted player is a painful setback. At least with Nylander we were able to get a decent return on him. Our GM is fully committed to the development process without seeking to short-circuit the process. That is one of the reasons that I like him. I thought he was really smart in keeping Chris Taylor who was good with working with the younger players in Rochester.
ALF Posted July 14, 2019 Posted July 14, 2019 3 hours ago, JohnC said: What happened to Puljujarvi? Was he rushed and ruined? 4th pick overall , would be ok for Amerks to develop.
BillsFan4 Posted July 14, 2019 Author Posted July 14, 2019 3 hours ago, Alaska Darin said: I agree with with the perspective that Cirelli is a 2/3 center type. At this moment, he's simply not enough to trade Risto straight up for. It'd would have to be something like Cirelli, a top prospect, and a first. Eh, I get what your saying because he’s only played 1 full season and part of another (this last season was considered his rookie year). But I’d be pretty damn happy with Cirell straight up for Risto. I am a big Cirelli fan though. He scored 19 goals last season with heavy defensive zone starts and no power play time. He was used as their 2 way shutdown C who faced a lot of the other team’s top competition and was depended on in a lot of late game situations. If Tampa had the lead late in a game, Cirelli was usually out there. He was also very good in the face off circle, which is something we need. all of his advanced stats look good too and it doesn’t appear that he was sheltered looking at QoC and matchups etc. He was already getting Selke votes last season (his first full NHL season). He finished 11th in selke voting (ROR placed 11th in selke voting a couple times before finally winning it this year) and he finished 6th in Calder voting. He’s only 21 and still on his ELC as well. He would be a perfect fit in Buffalo. He could be our #2 C this year and eventually slide into the #3C role if Mittelstadt or Cozens ever surpass him as the 2C. We would have elite center depth if either player ever passed Cirelli as the 2C, as he was already probably about the best 3C in the NHL last season (his rookie season) or damn close. I honestly don’t see Tampa trading him anyway. John Cooper LOVES him and uses him in a ton of key situations. Plus He’s still on his entry level contract. They need cost controlled players desperately with Point due for a raise this year and Vasilevski due next year. They have a bunch of guys with NMC too, which will make clearing our cap space harder. If they did trade him for Risto, I can’t see any scenario where they add a top prospect and a 1st, though. Maybe a pick if we were lucky. But not a prospect on top of that. I think they’d probably rather trade someone like Tyler Johnson because it would clear cap space. But he has a no trade clause. Id take Johnson though. He could be our 2C and is signed to a very reasonable $5M cap hit for 5 more years. The only issue is that he will be 29yrs old before the start of the season. His contract ends at age 33 so that’s not the issue. IMO the issue is that he probably doesn’t fit our long term rebuild window as well as Risto does. But he’d bring some much needed experience and leadership to the team. You can’t ice a entire roster of young guys (well, you can but it’s probably not going to be too successful as we’ve already seen). I would want a pick or prospect included with Johnson though (due to his age). 10 minutes ago, ALF said: 4th pick overall , would be ok for Amerks to develop. He’s no longer waiver exempt. So it’s pretty much NHL or bust for Puljujarvi. 1
Taro T Posted July 14, 2019 Posted July 14, 2019 7 hours ago, Alaska Darin said: I agree with with the perspective that Cirelli is a 2/3 center type. At this moment, he's simply not enough to trade Risto straight up for. It'd would have to be something like Cirelli, a top prospect, and a first. 2 hours ago, BillsFan4 said: Eh, I get what your saying because he’s only played 1 full season and part of another (this last season was considered his rookie year). But I’d be pretty damn happy with Cirell straight up for Risto. I am a big Cirelli fan though. He scored 19 goals last season with heavy defensive zone starts and no power play time. He was used as their 2 way shutdown C who faced a lot of the other team’s top competition and was depended on in a lot of late game situations. If Tampa had the lead late in a game, Cirelli was usually out there. He was also very good in the face off circle, which is something we need. all of his advanced stats look good too and it doesn’t appear that he was sheltered looking at QoC and matchups etc. He was already getting Selke votes last season (his first full NHL season). He finished 11th in selke voting (ROR placed 11th in selke voting a couple times before finally winning it this year) and he finished 6th in Calder voting. He’s only 21 and still on his ELC as well. He would be a perfect fit in Buffalo. He could be our #2 C this year and eventually slide into the #3C role if Mittelstadt or Cozens ever surpass him as the 2C. We would have elite center depth if either player ever passed Cirelli as the 2C, as he was already probably about the best 3C in the NHL last season (his rookie season) or damn close. I honestly don’t see Tampa trading him anyway. John Cooper LOVES him and uses him in a ton of key situations. Plus He’s still on his entry level contract. They need cost controlled players desperately with Point due for a raise this year and Vasilevski due next year. They have a bunch of guys with NMC too, which will make clearing our cap space harder. If they did trade him for Risto, I can’t see any scenario where they add a top prospect and a 1st, though. Maybe a pick if we were lucky. But not a prospect on top of that. I think they’d probably rather trade someone like Tyler Johnson because it would clear cap space. But he has a no trade clause. Id take Johnson though. He could be our 2C and is signed to a very reasonable $5M cap hit for 5 more years. The only issue is that he will be 29yrs old before the start of the season. His contract ends at age 33 so that’s not the issue. IMO the issue is that he probably doesn’t fit our long term rebuild window as well as Risto does. But he’d bring some much needed experience and leadership to the team. You can’t ice a entire roster of young guys (well, you can but it’s probably not going to be too successful as we’ve already seen). I would want a pick or prospect included with Johnson though (due to his age). He’s no longer waiver exempt. So it’s pretty much NHL or bust for Puljujarvi. The problem with Johnson is he has an NTC & simply can't see him waiving it to go from the Presidents' Trophy winner to the Sabres. I expect Cirelli would actually be a good piece coming back for Ristolainen, but the Bolts need to shed salary now, not add to it. Cirelli would fit in as the 2C now and could be the 3C if Mittelstadt or Cozens ever reach their potential. Originally, wasn't too keen on a potential Risto / Cirelli trade, but one of the posters on SabreSpace (Randall Flagg) has been making a convincing case. RNH would be a great trade for Buffalo if Botterill could swing it. Too bad Chiarelli is no longer the GM there.
Alaska Darin Posted July 14, 2019 Posted July 14, 2019 5 minutes ago, Taro T said: RNH would be a great trade for Buffalo if Botterill could swing it. Too bad Chiarelli is no longer the GM there. We could probably get Nurse and RNH for Risto from Chiarelli. What a disaster that dude is. 1
JohnC Posted July 14, 2019 Posted July 14, 2019 3 hours ago, BillsFan4 said: Eh, I get what your saying because he’s only played 1 full season and part of another (this last season was considered his rookie year). But I’d be pretty damn happy with Cirell straight up for Risto. I am a big Cirelli fan though. He scored 19 goals last season with heavy defensive zone starts and no power play time. He was used as their 2 way shutdown C who faced a lot of the other team’s top competition and was depended on in a lot of late game situations. If Tampa had the lead late in a game, Cirelli was usually out there. He was also very good in the face off circle, which is something we need. all of his advanced stats look good too and it doesn’t appear that he was sheltered looking at QoC and matchups etc. He was already getting Selke votes last season (his first full NHL season). He finished 11th in selke voting (ROR placed 11th in selke voting a couple times before finally winning it this year) and he finished 6th in Calder voting. He’s only 21 and still on his ELC as well. He would be a perfect fit in Buffalo. He could be our #2 C this year and eventually slide into the #3C role if Mittelstadt or Cozens ever surpass him as the 2C. We would have elite center depth if either player ever passed Cirelli as the 2C, as he was already probably about the best 3C in the NHL last season (his rookie season) or damn close. I honestly don’t see Tampa trading him anyway. John Cooper LOVES him and uses him in a ton of key situations. Plus He’s still on his entry level contract. They need cost controlled players desperately with Point due for a raise this year and Vasilevski due next year. They have a bunch of guys with NMC too, which will make clearing our cap space harder. If they did trade him for Risto, I can’t see any scenario where they add a top prospect and a 1st, though. Maybe a pick if we were lucky. But not a prospect on top of that. I think they’d probably rather trade someone like Tyler Johnson because it would clear cap space. But he has a no trade clause. Id take Johnson though. He could be our 2C and is signed to a very reasonable $5M cap hit for 5 more years. The only issue is that he will be 29yrs old before the start of the season. His contract ends at age 33 so that’s not the issue. IMO the issue is that he probably doesn’t fit our long term rebuild window as well as Risto does. But he’d bring some much needed experience and leadership to the team. You can’t ice a entire roster of young guys (well, you can but it’s probably not going to be too successful as we’ve already seen). I would want a pick or prospect included with Johnson though (due to his age). He’s no longer waiver exempt. So it’s pretty much NHL or bust for Puljujarvi. I'd take Cirelli on a one on one deal for Risto. I wouldn't do it for Johnson. I just believe that Cirelli because of his age has so much more upside. If he is playing at a high level now how much more upside is there to tap. I would be willing to trade McCabe and a little more for Johnson but I wouldn't make a deal including Risto for Johnson unless I got back one of those highly prized prospects. The Sabres have talked to Tampa about deals over the past couple of years. One of the sticking points is that the Lightning are not willing to give up any of their top prospects. That makes sense for them because they are in a tight cap situation they have players in the near pipeline who are ready to move up.
Alaska Darin Posted July 14, 2019 Posted July 14, 2019 4 hours ago, BillsFan4 said: Eh, I get what your saying because he’s only played 1 full season and part of another (this last season was considered his rookie year). But I’d be pretty damn happy with Cirell straight up for Risto. I am a big Cirelli fan though. ... I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with it. There are less than 10 RHD in the NHL that score like Risto and he does it on a one line team. Cirelli (at this moment) isn't a special player, so Tampa would need to supplement the trade with something enticing to make it happen. It wouldn't have to be their best prospect but rather someone like a Tage Thompson. The additional first is because they're in our division. Sorry, I'm not playing against Risto that many times every season and not getting a premium back for him. I'd rather keep him. I'm also not touching Tyler Johnson. That's too much money and too many years left for a small dude that's already 29. I do love his game, however.
JohnC Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 44 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said: I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with it. There are less than 10 RHD in the NHL that score like Risto and he does it on a one line team. Cirelli (at this moment) isn't a special player, so Tampa would need to supplement the trade with something enticing to make it happen. It wouldn't have to be their best prospect but rather someone like a Tage Thompson. The additional first is because they're in our division. Sorry, I'm not playing against Risto that many times every season and not getting a premium back for him. I'd rather keep him. I'm also not touching Tyler Johnson. That's too much money and too many years left for a small dude that's already 29. I do love his game, however. With respect to the highlighted segment you nailed what the issue is for a Cirelli for Risto deal i.e. what is his upside. If you believe that there is an upside (as I do) then you make the deal. If you don't then you don't make the deal. I would make the deal straight up and then believe that this team has the pieces to assemble a credible second line. Addressing the second line is the most important issue facing the organization this offseason.
Alaska Darin Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 13 minutes ago, JohnC said: With respect to the highlighted segment you nailed what the issue is for a Cirelli for Risto deal i.e. what is his upside. If you believe that there is an upside (as I do) then you make the deal. If you don't then you don't make the deal. I would make the deal straight up and then believe that this team has the pieces to assemble a credible second line. Addressing the second line is the most important issue facing the organization this offseason. No way. If all you can get at this point is a young, prospective middle 6 center then you hold the asset until the deadline.
JohnC Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said: No way. If all you can get at this point is a young, prospective middle 6 center then you hold the asset until the deadline. I understand your well reasoned position. However, I'm with @BillsFan4 on this deal. If Cirelli can be a top three center for the loaded Lightning he would be a solid #2 center with us with the potential to be better in the near future. 1
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