Buffalo Sabres and NHL: 2019/20: Sabres season officially over. Draft lottery June 26th

[K-9]

16 minutes ago, shrader said:

 

I just don't see what the point is of making that assessment.  A grading of incomplete is not a failure, yet it seems to be all that the fanbase wants to focus on.

The “assessment” was made in the context of knowing the ultimate outcome of the Kane trade and comparing the two trades. Then again, we are still waiting on a future 4th round pick in ‘19 or a 3rd round pick in ‘20 from San Jose for the final piece of that trade and the subsequent development of that player and whether or not he pans out, so I guess we have to wait years to, you know, fully assess the Kane trade as well.

 

I never used the word “fail”, either. I’ve used terms like “at this time” and “so far” which thoroughly imply the ultimate outcome is yet to be determined. But if you think it’s unfair to criticize the ROR trade even in that context, what can I say?

 

My opinion that we currently have NOTHING to show for the ROR trade is well founded. People can disagree with that all they like. But UNTIL Thomson and/or  that 30th or 31st pick pan out and contribute even CLOSE to on a par with ROR, I can’t be persuaded otherwise. The criticism of the trade is not unfair.

Edited May 23, 2019 by K-9

[shrader]

I don't mean to single you out.  I had a longer post written up but then shortened it, talking about this constant rush to judgement we see with immediately grading winners/losers in trades and draft picks.  So it's more about that "well, we have to print something" mentality that drives me mad.

 

If we do want to judge it as of today though, it's amazing how quickly that picture could change significantly in a very short time.  All it takes is one trade with that other pick.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, shrader said:

I don't mean to single you out.  I had a longer post written up but then shortened it, talking about this constant rush to judgement we see with immediately grading winners/losers in trades and draft picks.  So it's more about that "well, we have to print something" mentality that drives me mad.

 

If we do want to judge it as of today though, it's amazing how quickly that picture could change significantly in a very short time.  All it takes is one trade with that other pick.

I agree with you that it is a risky proposition to prematurely evaluate trades. As you noted sometimes the full tally doesn't come in until more time goes by. What I can say about the trade of ROR is that it will be very damaging if our GM doesn't make some deals this offseason to assemble a genuine second line, including a second line center. 

 

It's too early to determine whether Mittelstadt can become a second line center. I believe he will be. But when? I'm confident that he will improve next season but not sure it will be to the point of earning a second center role.  With respect to Tage it is not unusual for a tall and lean young prospect to struggle until he physically matures. From a physical standpoint he still has a way to go. 

 

It appears that ROR got tired of the losing and didn't see much hope in the near future. My fear is that if this steady losing continues it will create a climate where our young core will end up with the same demoralizing attitude and also want out. Fortunately, the Sabres hired a HC who is a master at instilling a positive attitude in his players. The GM has to be aggressive in addressing the talent deficit and give the coach a reasonable chance to succeed. 

[K-9]

7 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I agree with you that it is a risky proposition to prematurely evaluate trades. As you noted sometimes the full tally doesn't come in until more time goes by. What I can say about the trade of ROR is that it will be very damaging if our GM doesn't make some deals this offseason to assemble a genuine second line, including a second line center. 

 

It's too early to determine whether Mittelstadt can become a second line center. I believe he will be. But when? I'm confident that he will improve next season but not sure it will be to the point of earning a second center role.  With respect to Tage it is not unusual for a tall and lean young prospect to struggle until he physically matures. From a physical standpoint he still has a way to go. 

 

It appears that ROR got tired of the losing and didn't see much hope in the near future. My fear is that if this steady losing continues it will create a climate where our young core will end up with the same demoralizing attitude and also want out. Fortunately, the Sabres hired a HC who is a master at instilling a positive attitude in his players. The GM has to be aggressive in addressing the talent deficit and give the coach a reasonable chance to succeed. 

Risky to prematurely to evaluate trades? I don't agree. Trades can be evaluated at every stage. And right now, as it stands CURRENTLY, the ROR trade is a disaster, regardless of any unrelated acquisitions that may occur. We acquired Thompson, Berglund, Sobotka, either the 30th or 31st pick in this year's draft, and the Blues' 2nd rounder in 2021. We know what all the pieces are. Do we have to wait until that 2021 2nd rounder develops or is traded for something else before we can evaluate the trade? Really? The odds say that picks at the end of the first round and picks in the 2nd don't turn into players like ROR. So that leaves it up to Thompson to become a dominant top 6 force, which he is far from, again, AT THE MOMENT. In the meantime, we can evaluate until our hearts' content. 

 

We acquired Montour, O'Regan, and either a 4th this year or a 3rd next year from the Sharks for Kane so the book has been written. Can we evaluate the Kane trade yet or is that, too, premature? Do we really have to wait to see if that 4th round pick in 2019 or 3rd round pick in 2020 pan out or not before we can break it down? Really?

[snafu]

22 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

Yes it was.    Joe Tzu.      Distant cousin...

 

So he was talking about Lao Tzu's parents?

 

 

 

6 hours ago, K-9 said:

Like I said, it’s either Thompson becoming a good top six winger or a 30th/31st draft pick becoming one.

 

Would you take two solid third liners?

I would at this point.

[JohnC]

47 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Risky to prematurely to evaluate trades? I don't agree. Trades can be evaluated at every stage. And right now, as it stands CURRENTLY, the ROR trade is a disaster, regardless of any unrelated acquisitions that may occur. We acquired Thompson, Berglund, Sobotka, either the 30th or 31st pick in this year's draft, and the Blues' 2nd rounder in 2021. We know what all the pieces are. Do we have to wait until that 2021 2nd rounder develops or is traded for something else before we can evaluate the trade? Really? The odds say that picks at the end of the first round and picks in the 2nd don't turn into players like ROR. So that leaves it up to Thompson to become a dominant top 6 force, which he is far from, again, AT THE MOMENT. In the meantime, we can evaluate until our hearts' content. 

 

We acquired Montour, O'Regan, and either a 4th this year or a 3rd next year from the Sharks for Kane so the book has been written. Can we evaluate the Kane trade yet or is that, too, premature? Do we really have to wait to see if that 4th round pick in 2019 or 3rd round pick in 2020 pan out or not before we can break it down? Really?

No one disagrees that at this current point the trade has been a disaster. But what Shrader and I are saying is that the final assessment can't be made until later when the tally is more complete. How do you know that the later first round pick acquired in the deal isn't used for a trade deal that brings us a second line player? How do you know that the cap saving from the departure of ROR doesn't result in us bringing in additional players this offseason?

 

None of us here know what fully happened in the ROR situation? Is there more to the story about his relationship with the other players and staff that made it an imperative to deal him? It's not unusual that deals are made more for internal reasons that little to do with talent metrics. Is this such a case? Possibly. 

 

If you want to make a declarative judgment on the deal that is your prerogative. I'm going to wait to see what transactions happen this offseason before I come to a conclusion. 

 

With respect to the Kane deal that later brought us  Montour I am more than happy with that deal. That deal demonstrates that you can't immediately judge a deal until the assets that came are actually utilized, as it was in this case. 

[K-9]

2 hours ago, snafu said:

Would you take two solid third liners?

I would at this point.

I hear what you’re saying, but two solid third liners don’t replace the top 6 productivity of ROR. Basically, we need a star to come out of that deal and Thompson is our best hope of that happening. He has a ways to go to say the least. 

[K-9]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

No one disagrees that at this current point the trade has been a disaster. But what Shrader and I are saying is that the final assessment can't be made until later when the tally is more complete. How do you know that the later first round pick acquired in the deal isn't used for a trade deal that brings us a second line player? How do you know that the cap saving from the departure of ROR doesn't result in us bringing in additional players this offseason?

 

None of us here know what fully happened in the ROR situation? Is there more to the story about his relationship with the other players and staff that made it an imperative to deal him? It's not unusual that deals are made more for internal reasons that little to do with talent metrics. Is this such a case? Possibly. 

 

If you want to make a declarative judgment on the deal that is your prerogative. I'm going to wait to see what transactions happen this offseason before I come to a conclusion. 

 

With respect to the Kane deal that later brought us  Montour I am more than happy with that deal. That deal demonstrates that you can't immediately judge a deal until the assets that came are actually utilized, as it was in this case. 

What is your declarative judgment on the trade, as it stands, RIGHT NOW? 

 

Regarding Kane, yeah we know the pieces. But there are still future, unknown pieces involved. I don’t see how we don’t have to wait on future pieces to judge the Kane deal, but we have to wait until all the dust settles in the ROR deal. It’s an inconsistent view.

 

I say one can judge a trade at any stage. And right now, the judgment on the ROR deal is that we got nothing much to show for it. If that changes in time, my judgment of the trade will change as well. 

[BillsFan4]

 

 

excellent article on Krueger. IMO it should put to bed some of the fears some fans have about him being just some motivational speaker, which is completely ridiculous.

 

 

 

I knew of Krueger and have been intrigued by him for years, but now that he’s officially the Sabres coach and I’ve spent some time researching him, I am more intrigued than ever. I haven’t heard/read anything but effusive praise for Krueger (outside of a few random Oiler fans . Every player and coach he’s ever worked with just seems to gush over him. I am genuinely excited to see what he can do with the Sabres. I just hope he’s given a legitimate chance. I really want to see him get the full 3 years on his deal at minimum. I’m done with constant turnover. 

[JohnC]

17 minutes ago, K-9 said:

What is your declarative judgment on the trade, as it stands, RIGHT NOW?

 

Regarding Kane, yeah we know the pieces. But there are still future, unknown pieces involved. I don’t see how we don’t have to wait on future pieces to judge the Kane deal, but we have to wait until all the dust settles in the ROR deal. It’s an inconsistent view.[/n]

 

I say one can judge a trade at any stage. And right now, the judgment on the ROR deal is that we got nothing much to show for it. If that changes in time, my judgment of the trade will change as well. 

I simply don't have a declarative judgment on the trade right now. I will give you a more declarative statement after the offseason when the GM has made some deals (hopefully) to improve the roster. 

 

As I stated in the prior post the Kane deal looks better after Montour was traded for during the season. And if the GM is able to assemble a genuine second line then the deal of ROR won't look so bad. If the St. Louis first round pick is used in a deal to upgrade the roster then that would make the deal less uneven than it currently appears to be. And if Tage develops in the not too distant future then the trade balance becomes better.

 

If you want to make a conclusive judgment on the deal right now then that is your prerogative. I'm not going to do that because for me the calculating is still not concluded. 

 

My view is not inconsistent. The Montour deal made much later after the Kane deal improved the return. Using the same reasoning the ROR deal can't be finally determined until we see what transpires before the next season begins. 

 

Note: As with other posts I am having problems with the highlighting function. I apologize for what seems to be shouting. That is not my intention. 

Edited May 23, 2019 by JohnC
highlight problems

[K-9]

11 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

 

 

excellent article on Krueger. IMO it should put to bed some of the fears some fans have about him being just some motivational speaker, which is completely ridiculous.

 

 

 

I knew of Krueger and have been intrigued by him for years, but now that he’s officially the Sabres coach and I’ve spent some time researching him, I am more intrigued than ever. I haven’t heard/read anything but effusive praise for Krueger (outside of a few random Oiler fans . Every player and coach he’s ever worked with just seems to gush over him. I am genuinely excited to see what he can do with the Sabres. I just hope he’s given a legitimate chance. I really want to see him get the full 3 years on his deal at minimum. I’m done with constant turnover. 

Good stuff. Thanks for posting it. 

 

Per the bold, if he can get these guys to have each other’s backs and to adopt the necessary bunker mentality to play for each other night in and night out, he will get his three years and then some. He strikes me as the type who can know players as individuals, learn what motivates them, and then plays to those motivations. It’s a unique skill.

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I simply don't have a declarative judgment on the trade right now. I will give you a more declarative statement after the offseason when the GM has made some deals (hopefully) to improve the roster. 

 

As I stated in the prior post the Kane deal looks better after Montour was traded for during the season. And if the GM is able to assemble a genuine second line then the deal of ROR won't look so bad. If the St. Louis first round pick is used in a deal to upgrade the roster then that would make the deal less uneven than it currently appears to be. And if Tage develops in the not too distant future then the trade balance becomes better.

 

If you want to make a conclusive judgment on the deal right now then that is your prerogative. I'm not going to do that because for me the calculating is still not concluded. 

 

My view is not inconsistent. The Montour deal made much later after the Kane deal improved the return. Using the same reasoning the ROR deal can't be finally determined until we see what transpires before the next season begins. 

 

Note: As with other post I am having problems with the highlighting function. I apologize for what seems to be shouting. That is not my intention. 

Lol! I didn’t take it as shouting at all. I took it as you having the courage of your convictions and the confidence to share them in a bold manner. 

[JohnC]

45 minutes ago, K-9 said:

 

Lol! I didn’t take it as shouting at all. I took it as you having the courage of your convictions and the confidence to share them in a bold manner. 

The only time I feel the necessity to shout is when dealing with Plezmd1. He is a hard head and is not always receptive to my reasoning. I continue to work on him but he is exhausting. 

 

I'm really excited with the new coach. I'm hoping that the GM adds to the roster and gives him a chance to compete and succeed. This was a very smart and bold hire. 

[Buffalophil1948]

On 5/22/2019 at 9:58 AM, K-9 said:

Unfortunately, that's true. Unless Thompson becomes a solid top six player, which I doubt, or the 30th or 31st in the upcoming draft becomes one instead,  which I doubt even more, then we have absolutely nothing to show for the ROR trade. Nothing. I'm gonna go ahead and label it the worst trade in Buffalo pro sports history. At least until I comb the memory banks for something worse among the Bills, Sabres, or Braves. Right now, I can't remember one. 

Sammy Watkins

[4merper4mer]

11 hours ago, K-9 said:

Good stuff. Thanks for posting it. 

 

Per the bold, if he can get these guys to have each other’s backs and to adopt the necessary bunker mentality to play for each other night in and night out, he will get his three years and then some. He strikes me as the type who can know players as individuals, learn what motivates them, and then plays to those motivations. It’s a unique skill.

Lol! I didn’t take it as shouting at all. I took it as you having the courage of your convictions and the confidence to share them in a bold manner. 

I think to judge the trade you can't compare STL ROR to Thompson et al. and BUF ROR was terrible.  The cause for any discrepancy is ROR's childish and unprofessional attitude which is not Botterill's fault.  

 

I think it is fair to examine what Murray gave up to get this loser in the first place but even that is iffy.  Murray was horrible but could any GM really expect ROR's poor attitude and drunken  exploits?

[Lurker]

2 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

The cause for any discrepancy is ROR's childish and unprofessional attitude which is not Botterill's fault.  

 

LOL!   This board's a hoot.   

[4merper4mer]

7 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

LOL!   This board's a hoot.   

You're right.  Passive aggressive interviews about losing passion for the sport are mature and signing a contract, getting bombed and running over a Tim Hortons is professional.

[K-9]

2 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

I think to judge the trade you can't compare STL ROR to Thompson et al. and BUF ROR was terrible.  The cause for any discrepancy is ROR's childish and unprofessional attitude which is not Botterill's fault.  

 

I think it is fair to examine what Murray gave up to get this loser in the first place but even that is iffy.  Murray was horrible but could any GM really expect ROR's poor attitude and drunken  exploits?

Say what you want about his attitude, but he was our best overall player while he was here and he’s doing the same thing in St. Louis. And unless we get a comparable player in return eventually, whether it be Thompson developing, one of the draft picks, or whether it’s using those picks to trade for one, the Sabres got fleeced in the deal.

[JohnC]

5 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

You're right.  Passive aggressive interviews about losing passion for the sport are mature and signing a contract, getting bombed and running over a Tim Hortons is professional.

You can describe him in any way you want as a person. That's your business. But regardless what you think of him and how he handled himself in Buffalo he is one of the best two way players in the league now and when he played in Buffalo. His both ends of the ice style of play makes him a perfectly suited second center on even the best teams in the league. You may be reluctant to admit it but he is one of the primary reasons why the Blues are in the Stanley Cup Championship series.

 

There were more than on ice reasons why he was traded. Whatever negative view you have of him as a person to most people who follow the game it's obvious that his departure created a major void on the roster. And after a season this organization is still trying to fill that void. 

 

ROR had a drunken driving episode. He owned up to that miscue. You act as if because of that incident that he is a perpetual scourge on the community. You are being ridiculous. 

[4merper4mer]

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You can describe him in any way you want as a person. That's your business. But regardless what you think of him and how he handled himself in Buffalo he is one of the best two way players in the league now and when he played in Buffalo. His both ends of the ice style of play makes him a perfectly suited second center on even the best teams in the league. You may be reluctant to admit it but he is one of the primary reasons why the Blues are in the Stanley Cup Championship series.

 

There were more than on ice reasons why he was traded. Whatever negative view you have of him as a person to most people who follow the game it's obvious that his departure created a major void on the roster. And after a season this organization is still trying to fill that void. 

 

ROR had a drunken driving episode. He owned up to that miscue. You act as if because of that incident that he is a perpetual scourge on the community. You are being ridiculous. 

They were the worst team in the league the last time ROR was here.  There were no voids to create.  

 

He is playing well for the Blues.  Maybe he has grown up.  Terrific.  In his own words he did not give full effort last year.  He is now giving effort.  If you think that is the mark of a professional then you have low standards.

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

They were the worst team in the league the last time ROR was here.  There were no voids to create.  

 

He is playing well for the Blues.  Maybe he has grown up.  Terrific.  In his own words he did not give full effort last year.  He is now giving effort.  If you think that is the mark of a professional then you have low standards.

It's agreed that the Sabres were one of the worst teams in the league when ROR was here. But that doesn't mean that he was a reason for its ineptitude. He played on a team that lacked talent. He's not a miracle man. Jack Eichel played on the same wretched team. Does that mean that he was the reason why the team was bad or is a reflection on his talent level? Your logic is oddly illogical. 

 

ROR never admitted that he didn't give full effort last year. Where did you come up with that distorted assessment? He stated that he lost his passion for the game. And that was because of the constant losing and the unlikely near term avenue to succeed for this bedraggled team. It may be surprising to you but most people do understand that constant losing can suck the juice out of the most committed competitors. 

 

My standards are high enough to allow me to understand that not liking a player shouldn't prejudice me to the point where I can't fairly judge how a player actually plays. Your assessment of him as a player is not only way off the mark but it is simply zany.