Buffalo Sabres and NHL: 2019/20: Sabres season officially over. Draft lottery June 26th

[JohnC]

13 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

So in other words @JohnC,  as you have not listed any contracts that created the mess that is 3 years of bottom 7 finishes, I am going to assume you agree Bots cap mess is his own. 
 

 

 

 

Can you please, please tell me why Bots could not get this accomplished over the last 3 years? Cap is not a reason, he inherited cap space and this is HIS roster. He picked THIS roster and chose to overspend the cap on it. Just please lay out that strategy for me so I understand it. 
 

You have blind faith in a guy cause he spoke the platitudes you like to hear .. build through the draft, build the AHL depth... he has done neither of those things and people who say results speak louder than words are tired of his act. 
 

again, he is going into his 4 th offseason, not his 2nd. 

This isn't magic where you wave a wand and pull a rabbit out of the hat. It takes time to remake the organization and roster. He has been on the job three years. In the first year he had to rehire a new staff and do a full analysis of the hockey system, top to bottom. Over the next two years he has overturned much of the roster. I'm suggesting that this team on the precipice of anything special but I do see talent systematically being added. 

 

Your fixation on what you perceive to be Botts' cap mess makes no sense to me. He put the franchise in a good cap situation for next year and beyond. He essentially did what the Bills did under McBeane in that they were willing to structure their cap so that it stressed the system in the short-term in order to open it up for the longer term. And that's exactly what he did. Next offseason the franchise will be in a good cap situation because for the short term he because of the manner he handled it in the short term. 

[JohnC]

14 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

Can you name the players and contracts that Bots was stuck with when he got here that are affecting the cap this year? 

 

Do you truly believe Bots plan was to add players and contracts to be OVER the cap this year and still be a bottom 7 team.

The cap fixation for this year is not a problem; it is a solution. The team has a number of players on expiring contracts that will allow the GM a great deal of flexibility to sign his players next year such as Reinhart, and sign players such as Dahlin etc. when their contracts come up. The GM's approach is not short term for immediate results like the previous GM took. It takes time. In Fantasy Hockey you can get quick solutions. In the real world of NHL it doesn't work that way. 

 

 

[shrader]

10 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

Lehner had mental health + substance abuse issues his entire Buffalo career (Murray was with him in Ottawa too, remember). He didn’t clean up until he left Buffalo. That 2015 draft was deep. They could’ve had a very good young player with that pick. Even if they had drafted the goalie Murray was supposedly interested in (Samsonov) they’d have been better off. Lehner has played pretty well for 2 different teams now (since buffalo) and both chose to move on from him after a season (or less).

 

The thing with Lehner that sticks out to me is that if he's some sort of super goalie now, why is he already on his 3rd team in 2 years?  Vegas has 2 more years of Fleury at $7 million, so come July it'll be 4 teams in 2 years.  It has to make you wonder.

[May Day 10]

They are still burning picks though and the prospect pool is unimproved.  Potato head avoids choosing players out of the best developmental league in the world.  

 

If there has been some ultra deep master plan to build futures through the 19-20 season, I dont get why they have traded so many picks for upcoming ufas in skinner, frolik, vesey, simmonds, etc.  Got rooked out of higher picks for miller, beauleau, and montour.  Got de-pantsed in the scandella situation.  A pick for sheary and hunwick.  The 3rd, Ennis, and foligno in the og scandella trade.  The asset "management" has been terrible.

 

Many of these cases you can say "only a 4th"... but in aggregate it adds up.  They have needed to cast a wide net and develop.  

 

I get the concept of a rebuild, but that isnt what I am witnessing.  At the cap, near the bottom of the league again.  Not understanding where botterill is planning on obtaining "talent" for next year.

 

Kruger and his silly six sigma coaching shtick can go too.

Edited March 2, 2020 by May Day 10

[Cripple Creek]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

The cap fixation for this year is not a problem; it is a solution. The team has a number of players on expiring contracts that will allow the GM a great deal of flexibility to sign his players next year such as Reinhart, and sign players such as Dahlin etc. when their contracts come up. The GM's approach is not short term for immediate results like the previous GM took. It takes time. In Fantasy Hockey you can get quick solutions. In the real world of NHL it doesn't work that way. 

 

 

No would have been a more succinct answer. 

[plenzmd1]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

The cap fixation for this year is not a problem; it is a solution. The team has a number of players on expiring contracts that will allow the GM a great deal of flexibility to sign his players next year such as Reinhart, and sign players such as Dahlin etc. when their contracts come up. The GM's approach is not short term for immediate results like the previous GM took. It takes time. In Fantasy Hockey you can get quick solutions. In the real world of NHL it doesn't work that way. 

 

 

okay, let me get this straight and tell me where i misunderstand your post.

 

You believe the GM came in 3 years ago and decided he would never get above 6 from the bottom of the standings, use all his available cap room and sign bad players on purpose so that in year 4 he needed to sign and least 4 forwards, somehow get a #2 center, get a starting goalie, have a total of 14 RFA's and UFAs , and hopefully push for a playoff spot in year 4? You really think that was the master plan?

 

BTW, who's contracts are expiring? Are they Bots acquisitions? Heres the list, tell me which guy was not an acquisition or re-signed by  Bots

 

U Unrestricted

R-RFA

 

Sobotka -U

Vesey-U

Larrson_ U

 

Reinhart-R

Girgensons-U

Kahun-U

Thompson-U

Lazar-U

 

Simmonds-U

Frolik-U

Olofsun_R

 

Montour-R

Pilut-R

Hunwick-U

 

 

Ulmark-R

Johanson -R

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[K-9]

1 hour ago, shrader said:

 

The thing with Lehner that sticks out to me is that if he's some sort of super goalie now, why is he already on his 3rd team in 2 years?  Vegas has 2 more years of Fleury at $7 million, so come July it'll be 4 teams in 2 years.  It has to make you wonder.

Good question. My suspicion is it’s because he’s a major league A hole. 

[row_33]

2 hours ago, shrader said:

 

The thing with Lehner that sticks out to me is that if he's some sort of super goalie now, why is he already on his 3rd team in 2 years?  Vegas has 2 more years of Fleury at $7 million, so come July it'll be 4 teams in 2 years.  It has to make you wonder.

 

sounds like the old men back in the 1970s griping about players switching teams

 

because moving to another team means you HAVE to be immoral and a degenerate

 

LOL all the time since them at them

 

and i see this continues today, why i don't have the foggiest 

 

 

[plenzmd1]

2 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Good question. My suspicion is it’s because he’s a major league A hole. 

Prolly is a bit of that, but some I think is situational

 

1) The Sabres exit was 100% his illness. Maybe it could have worked here, but maybe he does not address his illness if stays

2) Islanders he was considered a system goalie.. and Griess had very similar numbers

3) Varlomov was available, and no baggage...Lou made a decision he felt safer giving him a long term contract that Lehner

3) Not many options left if i remember correctly, so he gets another 1 year deal..Chicago deals him for an asset in a lost season.

 

Now, it will be interesting to see if he can get a longer term deal this year. I would take em back over Hutton every day

[K-9]

49 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

Prolly is a bit of that, but some I think is situational

 

1) The Sabres exit was 100% his illness. Maybe it could have worked here, but maybe he does not address his illness if stays

2) Islanders he was considered a system goalie.. and Griess had very similar numbers

3) Varlomov was available, and no baggage...Lou made a decision he felt safer giving him a long term contract that Lehner

3) Not many options left if i remember correctly, so he gets another 1 year deal..Chicago deals him for an asset in a lost season.

 

Now, it will be interesting to see if he can get a longer term deal this year. I would take em back over Hutton every day

Great points, all, and I’m sure those are the main reasons for his short durations with various teams. But imo, he’s a major league A hole, regardless. 

[BillsFan4]

6 hours ago, shrader said:

 

The thing with Lehner that sticks out to me is that if he's some sort of super goalie now, why is he already on his 3rd team in 2 years?  Vegas has 2 more years of Fleury at $7 million, so come July it'll be 4 teams in 2 years.  It has to make you wonder.

Yep. As I mentioned, he’s played pretty well for 2 different teams now since leaving buffalo and both chose to move on from him after 1 season (or less, in chicago’s case). There has to be a reason. 

 

I know he was reportedly an issue in the buffalo locker room. Not sure if getting sober helped. You would think it had to help some, but there’s obviously some reason besides his on-ice play that these teams keep moving on from him. We know he really wanted to stay with the NYI. He wanted a contract with term but the Isles never even offered him anything. Not even another 1 year deal (which Lehner would have accepted. we know this because Lehner told the media). He also said he wanted to stay in Chicago and they obviously chose to move on too.

 

Lehner is one thing I don’t blame Botterill for. That was Tim Murray’s mess, and he really has no excuse because he was with Lehner for 4-5 years in Ottawa.

 

 

[JohnC]

5 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

okay, let me get this straight and tell me where i misunderstand your post.

 

You believe the GM came in 3 years ago and decided he would never get above 6 from the bottom of the standings, use all his available cap room and sign bad players on purpose so that in year 4 he needed to sign and least 4 forwards, somehow get a #2 center, get a starting goalie, have a total of 14 RFA's and UFAs , and hopefully push for a playoff spot in year 4? You really think that was the master plan?

 

BTW, who's contracts are expiring? Are they Bots acquisitions? Heres the list, tell me which guy was not an acquisition or re-signed by  Bots

 

U Unrestricted

R-RFA

 

Sobotka -U

Vesey-U

Larrson_ U

 

Reinhart-R

Girgensons-U

Kahun-U

Thompson-U

Lazar-U

 

Simmonds-U

Frolik-U

Olofsun_R

 

Montour-R

Pilut-R

Hunwick-U

 

 

Ulmark-R

Johanson -R

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't understand your weird obsession with this year's cap stress. As to which players in that UFA category came from which regime who freaking cares? New GMs usually don't come in and completely clean the slate from their predecessors deeds. What you refuse to acknowledge is that we are in good shape from thw cap the cap standpoint entering the offseason. Whether the UFA remains or are dispatched is this GM's responsibility. And how he handles those player and contract decisions inside franchise and for players he wants to bring in are solely his responsibility.

 

Please stop fixating on this year's cap stressed situation because I have no clue what your point is. The bottom line (whether you agree or not) is he handled the cap during his tenure so that in a reasonable period of time (this offseason) he would have greater flexibility to make personnel decisions. That's exactly what happened. And that is what you are obsessively complaining about. Find something else to make you neurotic!

 

Every year you create a different bogeyman for you to obsessively chase. Last year it was Housley. This year you are insanely obsessed with this year's cap situation even though next year that situation will be dramatically different. 

 

What's next for you crazy zealots? Are you going to blame Botts for the scary spread of the coronavirus? 

[Reed83HOF]

I am sooooo glad I am a NY Rangers fan - our rebuild has been going on shorter and is more successful; with the worst owner in all of sports....

 

What a f - ing disaster the Sabres are; it's like RWs trash moved there

[bbb]

1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

I am sooooo glad I am a NY Rangers fan - our rebuild has been going on shorter and is more successful; with the worst owner in all of sports....

 

What a f - ing disaster the Sabres are; it's like RWs trash moved there

 

What?  @JohnC said "You cite the Rangers as a model franchise. They have been mediocre for a generation"

 

And, then when i ran down the last decade, he ignored me.  

[Reed83HOF]

3 minutes ago, bbb said:

 

What?  @JohnC said "You cite the Rangers as a model franchise. They have been mediocre for a generation"

 

And, then when i ran down the last decade, he ignored me.  

The strangest thing is that Dolan has been very hands off with his Hockey Team and is letting the President/GM run the business, unlike the Knicks. He also has the right people in the right positions making the decisions.

 

We have also been both buyers and sellers to reduce our Cap hit and find the players to balance the team out. I mean, I get it Panarin helps a ton

 

NYR have more points than the Sabres this year, what is it 74 to 68?

[bbb]

6 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

The strangest thing is that Dolan has been very hands off with his Hockey Team and is letting the President/GM run the business, unlike the Knicks. He also has the right people in the right positions making the decisions.

 

We have also been both buyers and sellers to reduce our Cap hit and find the players to balance the team out. I mean, I get it Panarin helps a ton

 

NYR have more points than the Sabres this year, what is it 74 to 68?

 

Sounds about right.  Is Kreider out for the year, did they say?  

[Reed83HOF]

6 minutes ago, bbb said:

 

Sounds about right.  Is Kreider out for the year, did they say?  

They haven't said yet (or last I checked), but he broke is ankle, unless we make the playoffs I think he should be shelved and let the youngsters get some time in. 

 

The big key is much like the Bills during the teardown, we are actually trying to win (we also lucked out with Kappo being there for us)

[bbb]

4 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

They haven't said yet (or last I checked), but he broke is ankle, unless we make the playoffs I think he should be shelved and let the youngsters get some time in. 

 

The big key is much like the Bills during the teardown, we are actually trying to win (we also lucked out with Kappo being there for us)

 

Good luck.  The Ranger have always been my 2nd favorite team.  

[plenzmd1]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

I don't understand your weird obsession with this year's cap stress. As to which players in that UFA category came from which regime who freaking cares? New GMs usually don't come in and completely clean the slate from their predecessors deeds. What you refuse to acknowledge is that we are in good shape from thw cap the cap standpoint entering the offseason. Whether the UFA remains or are dispatched is this GM's responsibility. And how he handles those player and contract decisions inside franchise and for players he wants to bring in are solely his responsibility.

 

Please stop fixating on this year's cap stressed situation because I have no clue what your point is. The bottom line (whether you agree or not) is he handled the cap during his tenure so that in a reasonable period of time (this offseason) he would have greater flexibility to make personnel decisions. That's exactly what happened. And that is what you are obsessively complaining about. Find something else to make you neurotic!

 

Every year you create a different bogeyman for you to obsessively chase. Last year it was Housley. This year you are insanely obsessed with this year's cap situation even though next year that situation will be dramatically different. 

 

What's next for you crazy zealots? Are you going to blame Botts for the scary spread of the coronavirus? 

Here’s the point John. Bots has had 3 full off seasons with this franchise and has arguable made them worse. Your defense of that is “ well, he was up against the cap this year, but next year he has cap room”. Problem is he created that cap problem, and he thought this was a roster that could compete and win. He was dead wrong. 
 

 

tbis was not a franchise that needed a complete tear down and rebuild when he came in as you seem to believe. This was not the Red Wings. He had almost $10m in cap room, Kane, Ror, Sam, McCabe, Risto, Lehner , Larrson, Girgensons , let alone a Hart level player in Jack. Then he kicks into Dahlin. The group we have today is his efforts and building off that base , and they are bottom 6 again. It is almost unimaginable with that group they have gotten worse under his stewardship. 
 

I just don’t trust this guy To make wise moves hockey when the results just suggest he is not good at building teams. 
 

in your own words, the talent level even after 3 years is subpar.  Why do you believe he will magically change? 
 

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by plenzmd1

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

Here’s the point John. Bots has had 3 full off seasons with this franchise and has arguable made them worse. Your defense of that is “ well, he was up against the cap this year, but next year he has cap room”. Problem is he created that cap problem, and he thought this was a roster that could compete and win. He was dead wrong. 
 

 

tbis was not a franchise that needed a complete tear down and rebuild when he came in as you seem to believe. This was not the Red Wings. He had almost $10m in cap room, Kane, Ror, Sam, McCabe, Risto, Lehner , Larrson, Girgensons , let alone a Hart level player in Jack. Then he kicks into Dahlin. The group we have today is his efforts and building off that base , and they are bottom 6 again. It is almost unimaginable with that group they have gotten worse under his stewardship. 
 

I just don’t trust this guy To make wise moves hockey when the results just suggest he is not good at building teams. 
 

in your own words, the talent level even after 3 years is subpar.  Why do you believe he will magically change? 
 

 

We are going in circles. I respectfully but strenuously disagree with your general perspective. We will have to agree to disagree and move on. I say this with no rancor. 

 

The cap was a factor but not the biggest factor. He wanted to reshape the roster and cap structure. Last year, I was asked by an exasperated K-9 when I thought this team would be a more serious team. I said between two and three years (starting from last year). I hold to that schedule. This is a critical offseason where he needs to add some talent to fill some critical needs. If he doesn't accomplish that he will be replaced.