Buffalo Sabres and NHL: 2019/20: Sabres season officially over. Draft lottery June 26th

[4merper4mer]

45 minutes ago, ALF said:

 

Not sure if this is it

 

What happens if an NHL team exceeds the salary cap?

If a player meets a performance bonus that pushes a team over the cap for the season, it's still technically part of the previous year's contract, and therefore hits the prior-year cap after the season is over. That's handled as a fine against next year's cap.

 

What happens when an NHL team goes over the salary cap? - Quora

www.quora.com › What-happens-when-an-NHL-team-goes-over-the-sal..

You have to pay the price if you want stars like Vesey, Johansen and co.

[4merper4mer]

8 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

 

It feels hard to believe that it was just 5 days ago that they were talking about playing meaningful games in March. So much for that. Boy how quickly that dream died...

 

Wait a minute, I thought the big picture was an upward trajectory.

 

Does anyone still think Eichel asking out to get away from Bots master plan is unrealistic after a quote like that?

 

If Eichel had an injury, the Sabres would be the worst team in the league by a country mile.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Nextmanup said:

JohnC, either you are a paid member of the Sabres marketing staff, or you are the most gullible sports fan I've ever known.

 

Which is it?

 

 

I'm not gullible because I know what this team's status is. And I have stated it all season. I have said all along that this wasn't a playoff team.  They have some good core pieces but lack enough talent. Can that be corrected? It was never going to be adequately resolved this season. This is a make or break offseason for the GM. He either adds enough talent to upgrade the second line and goaltending or he will be out of a job. 

 

The margin of error between being a playoff team or not is minuscule. We played two top tier teams in Colorado and Vegas and kept up. The superior teams won in each case. But in each of the games you can't say that they were outclassed because they weren't.

 

I'm not going to read too much into the Arizona game. The Sabres played on two tough back to back games against a rested home opponent. The Sabres were simply gassed. That was evident even when they took the early lead. 

 

This rebuilding was never going to be a quick fix. That's the harsh reality that those who have a fantasy hockey mentality don't understand and having trouble accepting. 

 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Well I'm certainly excited by the sabres

[BillsFan4]

1 hour ago, 4merper4mer said:

Wait a minute, I thought the big picture was an upward trajectory.

 

Does anyone still think Eichel asking out to get away from Bots master plan is unrealistic after a quote like that?

 

If Eichel had an injury, the Sabres would be the worst team in the league by a country mile.

 

Yes. I still don’t think Eichel will ask out. As I said before, if this continues for 2-3 more years, then I could see him asking out. 

 

Eichel was saying ‘big picture’ as in the playoffs, not the organization’s big picture/plan. 

 

I would absolutely expect him to be disappointed. This entire season He just poured everything he had into trying to get this team to the playoffs. 

 

The whole team was disappointed. 

 

 

Edit - go listen to his interview on the Spittin Chicklets podcast (I posted it a few pages back) from February and tell me if that sounds like a guy that wants out.

Edited March 1, 2020 by BillsFan4

[BillsFan4]

2 hours ago, May Day 10 said:

"Growth path".  Sounds great.  Let me renew my sharply increased season tickets for some more of that!

 

Just got back from vacation.  Did they provide some kind of justification on why they gave up another draft pick for an upcoming ufa (simmonds)?  Their 2020 draft has been looted by botterill, which seems strange in light of this pretend master plan we keep hearing about.  Been working at 2022 as well.  

 

It’s a 2021 5th round pick.

 

and who cares about a 5th round pick, that if we were lucky would make the NHL 5-6+ years from now.

 

They traded a 5th 2 years from now for a guy they thought could help the team right now. I have no problem with that. If they had given up a prime draft pick, like a 2nd or 3rd, that’s a different story. 

 

Im also not sure I’d say their 2020 draft has been looted. They have their 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th and two 7ths. They traded their 3rd and 6th for Skinner. Hard to say that was a bad trade...(now the contract, that’s a different story)

Edited March 1, 2020 by BillsFan4

[plenzmd1]

46 minutes ago, JohnC said:

This rebuilding was never going to be a quick fix. That's the harsh reality that those who have a fantasy hockey mentality don't understand and having trouble accepting. 

 

 

No, the reality is teams that were in much worse shape cap wise and talent wise when Bots took over have screamed past the Sabres. Arizona, Vancouver,Carolina, even the Rangers for god sake we’re way behind the Sabres when Bits took over, and all are in way beet shape organizationally than the Sabres 

 

Problem is you and your ilk who have a “ dude talks a good game, so I believe him” And give him a pass for being flat out awful. If a new GM came in today and said “ I need 4 years to get this team to the playoff” you signing up for that? Of course not. But for some reason you think a team that had Kane, ROR, Sammy, Lehner , And JACK needed 4 years to even sniff the playoffs. 
 

ridiculous , and if you want to talk about “ fantasy hockey” it is believeing a GM has a plan to spend over the freaking cap and be this bad. That in any world is “ fantasy hockey”

 

 

 

[JohnC]

10 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

 

It’s a 2021 5th round pick.

 

and who cares about a 5th round pick, that if we were lucky would make the NHL 5-6+ years from now.

 

They traded a 5th 2 years from now for a guy they thought could help the team right now. I have no problem with that. If they had given up a prime draft pick, like a 2nd or 3rd, that’s a different story. 

 

Im also not sure I’d say their 2020 draft has been looted. They have their 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th and two 7ths. They traded their 3rd and 6th for Skinner. Hard to say that was a bad trade...(now the contract, that’s a different story)

I understand why people are frustrated and criticize the organization. That is fair and certainly understandable. When things are made up and exaggerated it is difficult to contend with. The Simmonds deal is a good deal, even if it is a short-term deal. The Skinner deal is not only a good deal for a scoring talent but also because the contract is not outlandish. It is a market rate contract for size and term. Is the Joki deal for Nylander something to complain about? Kahun looks like a good pickup for two players that we weren't going to keep. Getting Miller from Vegas at a reasonable price is a good value pickup. It's not all good and not all bad. There are some oddball zealots who make it seem as if the Vesey deal was calamitous. He was a third or fourth line forward pickup who was added at a reasonable price. What is tiresome are the distortions that are made out of frustration and contribute nothing. 

[JohnC]

34 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

No, the reality is teams that were in much worse shape cap wise and talent wise when Bots took over have screamed past the Sabres. Arizona, Vancouver,Carolina, even the Rangers for god sake we’re way behind the Sabres when Bits took over, and all are in way beet shape organizationally than the Sabres 

 

Problem is you and your ilk who have a “ dude talks a good game, so I believe him” And give him a pass for being flat out awful. If a new GM came in today and said “ I need 4 years to get this team to the playoff” you signing up for that? Of course not. But for some reason you think a team that had Kane, ROR, Sammy, Lehner , And JACK needed 4 years to even sniff the playoffs. 
 

ridiculous , and if you want to talk about “ fantasy hockey” it is believeing a GM has a plan to spend over the freaking cap and be this bad. That in any world is “ fantasy hockey”

 

 

 

You often repeat that the current GM created a cap mess that straitjacketed the franchise. That's the opposite of what happened here. His roster is nearly half full of players on expiring contracts. He is going to be in a good position to add talent because of his cap strategy. Is he going to take advantage of that situation this offseason? I can't say for sure. But let's wait and see.

 

You cite the Rangers as a model franchise. They have been mediocre for a generation. Are they much better than us? I'm not so sure. Arizona was bad for a long time and accumulated a lot of draft picks. So they are now reaping some of the benefits from those gilded picks. Are they much better than us? Yesterday's game against a well rested team when we were on a visiting back to back doesn't represent much.

 

You bring up losing Lehner as an organizational mistake. Are you freaking kidding me? He had addiction and mental health issues that he needed to address. That's not the organization's fault. In fact the organization did the right thing by getting him help to deal with his demons. I don't know of anyone who claimed that the ROR was anything but disastrous. However, there were things associated with that deal behind the scenes related to the player and maybe even the owner that influenced that horrible deal.   

 

You can continue with your "fantasy hockey" approach to filling rosters. The reality is that there is a real world out there where contracts, no-trade clauses, willing trading partners etc. that have to be considered. I'm willing to wait to see how this offseason transpires. If it isn't handled in such a way that it seriously improves the roster then I will join the raucous crowd of demanding a GM change. I'm not there yet.

 

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by JohnC

[Cripple Creek]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

I'm not gullible because I know what this team's status is. And I have stated it all season. I have said all along that this wasn't a playoff team.  They have some good core pieces but lack enough talent. Can that be corrected? It was never going to be adequately resolved this season. This is a make or break offseason for the GM. He either adds enough talent to upgrade the second line and goaltending or he will be out of a job. 

 

The margin of error between being a playoff team or not is minuscule. We played two top tier teams in Colorado and Vegas and kept up. The superior teams won in each case. But in each of the games you can't say that they were outclassed because they weren't.

 

I'm not going to read too much into the Arizona game. The Sabres played on two tough back to back games against a rested home opponent. The Sabres were simply gassed. That was evident even when they took the early lead. 

 

This rebuilding was never going to be a quick fix. That's the harsh reality that those who have a fantasy hockey mentality don't understand and having trouble accepting. 

 

 

Their upward trajectory is heartwarming.

[May Day 10]

As long as there is learning how to learn in a learning atmosphere based on growth, I'm excited for the future I guess.  The bar has been lowered so much here its unreal.

[Royale with Cheese]

I’m not a hockey follower...are the Sabres a disappointment this year?

[Big C]

It is too bad how this season has devolved. Also kind of crazy to see ROR go win a cup and Lehner almost win a Vezina after leaving here. GM TM may have been onto something. 

 

Side note, I still like those OG coyotes unis. They are a little busy but in a fun way. 

[plenzmd1]

6 hours ago, JohnC said:

You often repeat that the current GM created a cap mess that straitjacketed the franchise. That's the opposite of what happened here. His roster is nearly half full of players on expiring contracts. He is going to be in a good position to add talent because of his cap strategy. Is he going to take advantage of that situation this offseason? I can't say for sure. But let's wait and see.

 

You cite the Rangers as a model franchise. They have been mediocre for a generation. Are they much better than us? I'm not so sure. Arizona was bad for a long time and accumulated a lot of draft picks. So they are now reaping some of the benefits from those gilded picks. Are they much better than us? Yesterday's game against a well rested team when we were on a visiting back to back doesn't represent much.

 

You bring up losing Lehner as an organizational mistake. Are you freaking kidding me? He had addiction and mental health issues that he needed to address. That's not the organization's fault. In fact the organization did the right thing by getting him help to deal with his demons. I don't know of anyone who claimed that the ROR was anything but disastrous. However, there were things associated with that deal behind the scenes related to the player and maybe even the owner that influenced that horrible deal.   

 

You can continue with your "fantasy hockey" approach to filling rosters. The reality is that there is a real world out there where contracts, no-trade clauses, willing trading partners etc. that have to be considered. I'm willing to wait to see how this offseason transpires. If it isn't handled in such a way that it seriously improves the roster then I will join the raucous crowd of demanding a GM change. I'm not there yet.

 

 

Tell ya what, name the players and contracts that Bots was stuck with when he got here that are affecting the cap this year? Name em all please. 
 

Also, please tell me again how much cap Bots had when He took over? Oh that’s right, 9m

 

and do you truly believe Bots plan was to add players and contracts to be OVER the cap this year and still be a bottom 7 team. 

[bbb]

10 hours ago, JohnC said:

You cite the Rangers as a model franchise. They have been mediocre for a generation.

 

Are these hockey generations, as in there being one or two generational players in the draft every year.

 

Because this past decade, they only missed the playoffs three times.  They've won a bunch of series.  They were in the Conference Finals three times.  They were in the Cup Finals once.  And, they won the President's Trophy at least once.  

[BillsFan4]

8 hours ago, Big C said:

It is too bad how this season has devolved. Also kind of crazy to see ROR go win a cup and Lehner almost win a Vezina after leaving here. GM TM may have been onto something. 

 

Side note, I still like those OG coyotes unis. They are a little busy but in a fun way. 

If you look at a list of Tim Murray’s trades, ROR was really his only good trade (at least IMO).

 

Lehner had mental health + substance abuse issues his entire Buffalo career (Murray was with him in Ottawa too, remember). He didn’t clean up until he left Buffalo. That 2015 draft was deep. They could’ve had a very good young player with that pick. Even if they had drafted the goalie Murray was supposedly interested in (Samsonov) they’d have been better off. Lehner has played pretty well for 2 different teams now (since buffalo) and both chose to move on from him after a season (or less). 

 

Murray did a lot of damage and burned through a lot of assets. Our prospect pool is still trying to fully recover from all the depth + draft picks traded away (and the poor drafting by multiple different regimes obviously played a big role).

 

It really sucks that Botterill had to undo Murray’s only good move (ROR) and set the franchise even farther back.

[4merper4mer]

13 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

Tell ya what, name the players and contracts that Bots was stuck with when he got here that are affecting the cap this year? Name em all please. 
 

Also, please tell me again how much cap Bots had when He took over? Oh that’s right, 9m

 

and do you truly believe Bots plan was to add players and contracts to be OVER the cap this year and still be a bottom 7 team. 

Personally I find it mind boggling that needing to replace half of a roster of expiring contracts is considered an accomplishment.  Salary cap money or not, that is not an easy task.  Where are enough good players going to come from with the combination of their old teams keeping them and other teams with cap $ bidding?

 

If they don't dump Bots, they don't.  I have no illusions that he can come close to having a good enough off season to make 20-21 viable.

[JohnC]

13 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

Tell ya what, name the players and contracts that Bots was stuck with when he got here that are affecting the cap this year? Name em all please. 
 

Also, please tell me again how much cap Bots had when He took over? Oh that’s right, 9m

 

and do you truly believe Bots plan was to add players and contracts to be OVER the cap this year and still be a bottom 7 team. 

The organization is in a good situation with their cap next year that should allow them to make some moves next offseason. Your neurotic fixation about the cap stress this year makes no sense. It was his cap stressing strategy this year made up of a number of expiring contracts that will allow him flexibility next year.   Will he be able to take advantage of it? That's the issue. We'll see. Restructuring the cap is not an automatic action because contracts are locked in. So it takes time. The GM steadily acquired his players and the contracts he would sign them to. That's what has been going on during his tenure. 

 

I have repeatedly said for the past couple of years to your deaf ears that there was not going to be a quick fix to the roster that the GM inherited. While you were fixated on the deficiencies of Housley as a coach you missed the more important issue of the talent gap. I believe that he is systematically addressing that issue. You don't.

 

What do we currently have? We have a very good first line. We also have a young and emerging defensive unit. Our checking line in Okposo-Larsson-Gergs is also very accomplished in their role. Our biggest deficiency is our second line. The only genuine second line player is Skinner who is being diminished as a player because of the caliber of players he is playing alongside of him don't complement his shooting talents. That's the biggest issue that needs to be addressed.

 

I truly believe that next year is going to be our bump up year. I say that because of our cap situation we should  be able to bring in a couple of good players. And based on the GM dangling Risto I see a trade being made in the offseason to bring in a second-line forward/center that will help balance out this roster.  In addition, we have a number of young players who I'm confident will continue to get better. Be patient!  

[plenzmd1]

So in other words @JohnC,  as you have not listed any contracts that created the mess that is 3 years of bottom 7 finishes, I am going to assume you agree Bots cap mess is his own. 
 

 

Quote

I truly believe that next year is going to be our bump up year. I say that because of our cap situation we should  be able to bring in a couple of good players. And based on the GM dangling Risto I see a trade being made in the offseason to bring in a second-line forward/center that will help balance out this roster.  In addition, we have a number of young players who I'm confident will continue to get better. Bepatient!  

 

 

Can you please, please tell me why Bots could not get this accomplished over the last 3 years? Cap is not a reason, he inherited cap space and this is HIS roster. He picked THIS roster and chose to overspend the cap on it. Just please lay out that strategy for me so I understand it. 
 

You have blind faith in a guy cause he spoke the platitudes you like to hear .. build through the draft, build the AHL depth... he has done neither of those things and people who say results speak louder than words are tired of his act. 
 

again, he is going into his 4 th offseason, not his 2nd. 

Edited March 2, 2020 by plenzmd1

[Cripple Creek]

34 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The organization is in a good situation with their cap next year that should allow them to make some moves next offseason. Your neurotic fixation about the cap stress this year makes no sense. It was his cap stressing strategy this year made up of a number of expiring contracts that will allow him flexibility next year.   Will he be able to take advantage of it? That's the issue. We'll see. Restructuring the cap is not an automatic action because contracts are locked in. So it takes time. The GM steadily acquired his players and the contracts he would sign them to. That's what has been going on during his tenure. 

 

I have repeatedly said for the past couple of years to your deaf ears that there was not going to be a quick fix to the roster that the GM inherited. While you were fixated on the deficiencies of Housley as a coach you missed the more important issue of the talent gap. I believe that he is systematically addressing that issue. You don't.

 

What do we currently have? We have a very good first line. We also have a young and emerging defensive unit. Our checking line in Okposo-Larsson-Gergs is also very accomplished in their role. Our biggest deficiency is our second line. The only genuine second line player is Skinner who is being diminished as a player because of the caliber of players he is playing alongside of him don't complement his shooting talents. That's the biggest issue that needs to be addressed.

 

I truly believe that next year is going to be our bump up year. I say that because of our cap situation we should  be able to bring in a couple of good players. And based on the GM dangling Risto I see a trade being made in the offseason to bring in a second-line forward/center that will help balance out this roster.  In addition, we have a number of young players who I'm confident will continue to get better. Be patient!  

Can you name the players and contracts that Bots was stuck with when he got here that are affecting the cap this year? 

 

Do you truly believe Bots plan was to add players and contracts to be OVER the cap this year and still be a bottom 7 team.