Buffalo Sabres and NHL: 2019/20: Sabres season officially over. Draft lottery June 26th

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, plenzmd1 said:

Might be, Risto played the most minutes last year too and you said he sucked last year? So..

 

Put your head in the sand all you want, the NHL is almost entirly run now by guys who buy into the analytics. Reason why Bruce Cassidy says "i need to see the numbers" and not " i need to see the tape" when someone asks him what he thought of someones play in a game. It is also the reason Bots cannot trade him

You are falsely making the assumption that the Sabres don't use analytics like most teams do. They do. Your narrative is your own fictitious narrative that doesn't reflect the reality. 

[plenzmd1]

Just now, JohnC said:

You are falsely making the assumption that the Sabres don't use analytics like most teams do. They do. Your narrative is your own fictitious narrative that doesn't reflect the reality. 

 If they used analytics  Bogosian never would have seen the ice this year, Pilut would have been in the NHL from the jump, Skinner would be playing on the PP , Hutton would not get any games and Risto would be getting 3 rd pairing minutes. 

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

 If they used analytics  Bogosian never would have seen the ice this year, Pilut would have been in the NHL from the jump, Skinner would be playing on the PP , Hutton would not get any games and Risto would be getting 3 rd pairing minutes. 

There are many factors beyond analytics why players play or on the roster or not. Contract considerations and players who can be recalled or not without being subjected to waiver claims also come into play. There are a lot of transactions that all teams would like to make but can't because of constraints such as the cap and contracts considerations. You may be good at playing fantasy hockey but the real world of NHL doesn't work like your imaginary hockey world. 

[plenzmd1]

@BillsFan4, the general reaction I am seeing on twitter is twofold

 

1) Bruins fans are jubilant at the trade

2) Duck Fans , while not quite as cranky as Hawks fans last year when Joki was traded.still a  good bit  upset. That is offset a bit by a good number of the them that don't understand what a salary dump is with Backes.

3) https://puckprose.com/2020/02/21/boston-bruins-phenomenal-move-ondrej-kase/

 

I know Kyle has a NM, but can imagine getting Kase for say a 2nd( Sabres could be 4 after Bruins pick) a 3rd, Borgen(RHD) and  Kyle?

Edited February 21, 2020 by plenzmd1

[plenzmd1]

20 minutes ago, JohnC said:

There are many factors beyond analytics why players play or on the roster or not. Contract considerations and players who can be recalled or not without being subjected to waiver claims also come into play. There are a lot of transactions that all teams would like to make but can't because of constraints such as the cap and contracts considerations. You may be good at playing fantasy hockey but the real world of NHL doesn't work like your imaginary hockey world. 

Uhm...it sure does. Look no further than the Kase trade today...100% based on advanced analytics, certainly not actually point production from Kase yet.

 

You want to talk contract considerations? Why the hell do you still have Sammy playing with Jack? Find out now if you want to pay him $9M a year by seeing if he can drive his own line. Or, do they want to pay him like Skinner based on a great  year with Jack..and then not play him with Jack and watch his production go down 50%. What they are doing now with Sammy is simply driving his price up.

 

Only reason who can or cannot  be recalled should factor in is when you have folks of comparable skill and worth... Bogo was never going to make an impact on this team, that was a pure case of Bots overvaluing his D. Cap constraints are workable...lookee how the Bruins just got rid of one their cap headaches!! 

 

 

[shrader]

41 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

@BillsFan4, the general reaction I am seeing on twitter is twofold

 

1) Bruins fans are jubilant at the trade

2) Duck Fans , while not quite as cranky as Hawks fans last year when Joki was traded.still a  good bit  upset. That is offset a bit by a good number of the them that don't understand what a salary dump is with Backes.

3) https://puckprose.com/2020/02/21/boston-bruins-phenomenal-move-ondrej-kase/

 

I know Kyle has a NM, but can imagine getting Kase for say a 2nd( Sabres could be 4 after Bruins pick) a 3rd, Borgen(RHD) and  Kyle?

 

Backes has one year left on his contract.  Okposo has 3.  Buffalo probably would have had to add two first round picks to this deal.  No one's taking Kyle's contract.

[plenzmd1]

Just now, shrader said:

 

Backes has one year left on his contract.  Okposo has 3.  Buffalo probably would have had to add two first round picks to this deal.  No one's taking Kyle's contract.

Agreed, and hes not accepting anytrade  i would  think. My only point was they are getting cap relief next year, giving up what i have seen reported as a B- prospect, and what should be a very late first . If Anaheim does not need to take on that one year of cap, is it safe to assume a pick maybe 5-10 picks after the Bruins gets it done? I get for some, just the notion of a 1st vs a 2nd sounds like a lot...instead of just saying pick 36 instead of pick 28.

 

Could be Anaheim will need the spend to get to the floor next year..i dont know. What i do know is that for a team that is in desperate need of forwards, this seems like a deal that could have been made, and it would not have been a reach or a desperation move. This is a real life hockey trade .

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said:

1) Bruins fans are jubilant at the trade

 

According to the comments on this article, Bruins fans hate the trade:

 

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/bruins/2020/02/21/bruins-trade-david-backes-axel-andersson-ducks-for-ondrej-kase/l8PrelOaa3kejTBo1TsKxJ/story.html

 

[Hardhatharry]

Sabres need to fire the GM today.

[plenzmd1]

24 minutes ago, \GoBillsInDallas/ said:

 

According to the comments on this article, Bruins fans hate the trade:

 

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/bruins/2020/02/21/bruins-trade-david-backes-axel-andersson-ducks-for-ondrej-kase/l8PrelOaa3kejTBo1TsKxJ/story.html

 

I cant get to that article( the paywall is strong in that one, but paste this into twitter

 

https://twitter.com/search?q=kase bruins&src=typed_query

 

Show me one negative tweet

[BillsFan4]

 

 

 

[row_33]

how can we bring this excitement back to the game?

 

 

 

[JohnC]

7 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

Uhm...it sure does. Look no further than the Kase trade today...100% based on advanced analytics, certainly not actually point production from Kase yet.

 

You want to talk contract considerations? Why the hell do you still have Sammy playing with Jack? Find out now if you want to pay him $9M a year by seeing if he can drive his own line. Or, do they want to pay him like Skinner based on a great  year with Jack..and then not play him with Jack and watch his production go down 50%. What they are doing now with Sammy is simply driving his price up.

 

Only reason who can or cannot  be recalled should factor in is when you have folks of comparable skill and worth... Bogo was never going to make an impact on this team, that was a pure case of Bots overvaluing his D. Cap constraints are workable...lookee how the Bruins just got rid of one their cap headaches!! 

 

 

Around half a dozen Sabres are on the last year of their contracts. The GM for the Sabres did what the Buffalo Bills did in the second year of that new regime by absorbing a tight cap one year to open up the salary cap space the next year. How do you think the Bills were able to bring in free agents the next year? If you want to complain about the organization's willingness to accept the cap squeeze this year to bring in better players next year then do so. I agree with their financial strategy and willingness to be more strategic about how they handle their cap. 

 

You are one of the few cantankerous people who is complaining about a player (Reinhart) playing well for the past few years. He has been consistently good while also improving each year. That's something to celebrate and not complain about. Reinhart bet on himself by taking a bridge deal on his last contract. He performed beyond his contract. I salute him for that while you whine about his accomplishments as if it is problem. 

 

Your complaints about Bogo and how the GM handled the situation belie the reality of the facts. This over-paid and injured player was not movable. No team wanted him. There was no way for the organization to not take a major cap hit whether he was moved or not. So the organization waited until the season advanced and then worked out an arrangement to get rid of him. You may be reluctant to remember the actual fact that the current GM inherited the Bogo albatross. This burdening player and contract were a product of the prior regime. The GM dealt with it in the best way he could considering the circumstances he had to deal with. 

 

Again, fantasy hockey has little to do with real hockey where contracts, cap considerations, no trade clauses and unwilling trade partners come into play. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by JohnC

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, BillsFan4 said:

 

 

 

When I watched the clip I felt the long term burden and pain he had to deal with associated with his addiction.  And within the same clip I also felt the relief he has for taking the step to deal with his problem in a serious manner. It's not easy for a public figure to deal with a serious private problem. He seems to have made the decision to accept that he has demons and work every day to deal with them. It's not a hockey issue for him as it is a life and family issue. I certainly wish him the best. 

[BillsFan4]

https://theathletic.com/1626195/2020/02/21/lebrun-the-kase-price-ottawas-pageau-options-and-the-jets-underrated-moves/ (sub. Req.)

 

Quote

That the Hurricanes got in there shouldn’t be a surprise given that Kase is the player they wanted from Anaheim in the failed Justin Faulk trade back in September. The Canes have liked Kase for a long time. My understanding is that they offered a second-round pick and a prospect for Kase. The Canes have two second-round picks in June, the Rangers’ and their own, so it would have been interesting to know which one they offered. A low first-round pick from Boston or the Rangers’ second-round pick (and no Backes contract) plus a prospect? But clearly Anaheim went the Boston route for a reason.

 

We can’t assume a 2nd + prospect gets it done from Buffalo. The NYR 2nd is comparable to Buffalo’s, and Carolina has a number of interesting prospects in their system. Anaheim may have really wanted that 1st round pick.

[4merper4mer]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Around half a dozen Sabres are on the last year of their contracts. The GM for the Sabres did what the Buffalo Bills did in the second year of that new regime by absorbing a tight cap one year to open up the salary cap space the next year. How do you think the Bills were able to bring in free agents the next year? If you want to complain about the organization's willingness to accept the cap squeeze this year to bring in better players next year then do so. I agree with their financial strategy and willingness to be more strategic about how they handle their cap. 

 

You are one of the few cantankerous people who is complaining about a player (Reinhart) playing well for the past few years. He has been consistently good while also improving each year. That's something to celebrate and not complain about. Reinhart bet on himself by taking a bridge deal on his last contract. He performed beyond his contract. I salute him for that while you whine about his accomplishments as if it is problem. 

 

Your complaints about Bogo and how the GM handled the situation belie the reality of the facts. This over-paid and injured player was not movable. No team wanted him. There was no way for the organization to not take a major cap hit whether he was moved or not. So the organization waited until the season advanced and then worked out an arrangement to get rid of him. You may be reluctant to remember the actual fact that the current GM inherited the Bogo albatross. This burdening player and contract was a product of the prior regime. The GM dealt with it in the best way he could considering the circumstances he had to deal with. 

 

Again, fantasy hockey has little to do with real hockey where contracts, cap considerations, no trade clauses and unwilling trade partners come into play. 

The Sabres and Bills plans have not been similar.  A big part of that is the difference in financial rules, roster sizes, etc. The plans really can't be all that similar.  Also Brandon Beane has neither his head or his thumb up his butt.

 

What can be similar is a recurring ebb and flow of seasoned vets with big cap hits and talented youngsters on the cheap.  The Sabres are in a position where they will need to turn over half of their offensive roster in one year and all by acquiring them from a pool of available players that will not be nearly deep enough.  

 

The Bills did turn over a lot of their offense in 2019 but the pool of players is generally pretty deep in the NFL.  They have also drafted well and players move right into the NFL.

 

Bots hasn't really added much to the offense in his three years here.  The players he has brought in mostly really stink and there isn't much to debate about that.  Why are we to believe the magic salary cap space will change Bots ability to avoid players like Sheary, Vesey, Mittlestadt, and Thompson?  Will he suddenly have an eye for talent?  No.  He won't. The Sabres need to add 5 or 6 forwards and a goalie.  Seattle is in a better position because they have the opportunity.  

 

Tim Murray burned this thing down better than any arsonist could have imagined.  In three years Bots has turned a pile  of burning embers into what looks like a tree fort built in the backyard by 4th graders.  We had a couple pieces of the foundation in place and the rest is a random hodge podge of scrap yard materials nailed together haphazardly.  We need an architect , stat.

[JohnC]

18 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

Uhm...it sure does. Look no further than the Kase trade today...100% based on advanced analytics, certainly not actually point production from Kase yet.

 

You want to talk contract considerations? Why the hell do you still have Sammy playing with Jack? Find out now if you want to pay him $9M a year by seeing if he can drive his own line. Or, do they want to pay him like Skinner based on a great  year with Jack..and then not play him with Jack and watch his production go down 50%. What they are doing now with Sammy is simply driving his price up.

 

Only reason who can or cannot  be recalled should factor in is when you have folks of comparable skill and worth... Bogo was never going to make an impact on this team, that was a pure case of Bots overvaluing his D. Cap constraints are workable...lookee how the Bruins just got rid of one their cap headaches!! 

 

 

Do you want to know why Reinhart is playing on the Jack line? Because he playing on the Jack line along with Olofsson is one of the top first lines in the league. Only you with your sour attitude would find that troubling.   If Reinhart plays exceptionally well he will be rewarded with a commensurate contract. If the Sabres aren't willing to pay him at a market-rate level do you think he is going to stay with the low balling team? 

 

What you are essentially saying is that because of contract considerations it is not smart to put a player in the best position to succeed and benefit the team. That is not only a cynical way of making hockey decisions (by the coach and GM) it is a stupendously stupid way of running an operation. When you advocate for not maximizing a player's production then you have lost me. 

 

You are mistakenly submerging the Skinner situation to other non-applicable situations. First and foremost he is not playing as well as he should/could. The onus is on him as a player. But at the heart of the issue is that he needs to play with better players who are not this roster. Hopefully, more talent will be brought in to address that issue in the offseason. As it stands Krueger is not willing to disassemble  the Jack line because it is producing as one of the best top lines in the league. You may disagree with his decision but it is a reasonable and understandable position.  

 

You and I reside in different universes. They will never meet. When it becomes pointless---it becomes pointless.  

Edited February 22, 2020 by JohnC

[4merper4mer]

35 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Do you want to know why Reinhart is playing on the Jack line? Because he playing on the Jack line along with Olofsson is one of the top first lines in the league. Only you with your sour attitude would find that troubling.   If Reinhart plays exceptionally well he will be rewarded with a commensurate contract. If the Sabres aren't willing to pay him at a market-rate level do you think he is going to stay with the low balling team? 

 

What you are essentially saying is that because of contract considerations it is not smart to put a player in the best position to succeed and benefit the team. That is not only a cynical way of making hockey decisions (by the coach and GM) it is a stupendously stupid way of running an operation. When you advocate for not maximizing a player's production then you have lost me. 

 

You are mistakenly submerging the Skinner situation to other non-applicable situations. For one he is not playing as well as he should/could. The onus is on him as a player. But at the heart of the issue is that he needs to play with better players who are not this roster. Hopefully, more talent will be brought in to address that issue in the offseason. As it stands Krueger is not willing to disassemble  the Jack line because it is producing as one of the best top lines in the league. You may disagree with his decision but it is a reasonable and understandable position.  

 

You and I reside in different universes. They will never meet. When it becomes pointless---it becomes pointless.  

Although I agree Reinhardt should be on L1, you're making his overall point about Bots.  I won't even argue about Skinner's contract because someone else probably would have paid it.

 

So by your account we have one of the very top 1st lines in hockey which includes two cheap guys on it now.  We have a 4th line that is average or above for a 4th.  We have a good and relatively young/cheap defensive group.

 

How bad does your second line, third line and goaltending have to be to turn the pool in the paragraph above into one of the worst few teams in the league?  Spoiler alert: Really bad.  

 

Now look at at the fact that you have to pay one of your top line guys just to maintain the atrocious status quo.  That burns some of the precious cap money we've been sucking for three years to save and we still have to find FOUR or more forwards.  We will definitely have to rely on Ullmark as our 1.....which I'm ok with I guess given the rest of the needs.  Bots is simply not the guy for this job.  He really hasn't found a forward in his whole time here and now he's got to find four in a year?  That's not going to work.

[K-9]

It’s great that Reinhart has developed into a good winger playing alongside Eichel on a line that has become one of the best offensive lines in the league. 
 

But that doesn’t happen if Reinhart hadn’t proved to be a bust at the position he was drafted for in the hopes of filling. Part of the reason we don’t have that number two center is because we have sucked at drafting them over the drought years. 

[BillsFan4]

 

 

I knew things were rough in Detroit this season, but yikes...