JohnC Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 Elliottte Friedman was on WGR's Instigator Show. This is a 25 minute segment. The majority of the discussion dealt with potential league wise trades. https://wgr550.radio.com/media/audio-channel/01-09-sportsnets-elliotte-friedman-with-the-instigators 1
Taro T Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 18 minutes ago, snafu said: Out of the three D that you named, I'd actually be happiest to see Montour go. And if they can get a better return in a trade for him than any other D-man not named Ristolainen then he can go as far as I'm concerned. That way you don't need to worry about protecting him. And by "return" I mean a forward who can skate and grind in the corners, create chances for his linemates, and plant himself in front of the net. Add two of those guys and at least one very reliable "finisher" to the second and third lines, and now we've got something. Do it by this time next year and I will be surprised. Would absolutely like to see some of the D depth moved for improvements to the 2nd line (ideally a true 2C so Johansson could slide to either 2RW or 3C where he fits more naturally. But, whether Ristolainen is a part of that package or Montour or even somebody else; the Sabres will lose one of Risto, Montour, or Pilut in the expansion draft. They won't only protect 8 skaters, and their D is way deeper than their forwards are, so their 4th best D-man will be lost. 1
plenzmd1 Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 44 minutes ago, shrader said: You can't fix a bad contract. You can potentially trade them out, most likely giving away additional assets to do so. That said, no one is taking Okposo off their hands. That's really the only bad Murray contract that remains. The rest have expired. I mean, that's my point. The cap is maxed due to Botts, not Murray, as opposed what @JohnC wants all to believe. As you point out, one player with a bad cap contract( and a useful player, just worth $2M, not $6M)..pretty standard in the NHL. But Botts somehow gets a free pass for this year with the " he has no cap flexibility so he could not improve the roster"..all the while he is the one that forced them into no cap flexibility. Great gig if ya can get it
JohnC Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 1 minute ago, plenzmd1 said: I mean, that's my point. The cap is maxed due to Botts, not Murray, as opposed what @JohnC wants all to believe. As you point out, one player with a bad cap contract( and a useful player, just worth $2M, not $6M)..pretty standard in the NHL. But Botts somehow gets a free pass for this year with the " he has no cap flexibility so he could not improve the roster"..all the while he is the one that forced them into no cap flexibility. Great gig if ya can get it Without a doubt the cap is tight this year. The obvious strategy was to be willing to stress the cap this year so next year and beyond the GM will be in a favorable position to keep players and add players . This approach is the same as what McDermott/Beane took when they took over so that in the third year and beyond there was more flexibility to add to the football roster. I know you don't want to hear it but what Botts is doing is positioning this franchise to mostly advance this team in the not too distant future rather than about this year. Because of your impatience you are too fixated with the present roster. I'm not. I simply have a wider perspective than you. That's okay. I'm more than happy to be riding a different bus.
JohnC Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 45 minutes ago, Taro T said: Would absolutely like to see some of the D depth moved for improvements to the 2nd line (ideally a true 2C so Johansson could slide to either 2RW or 3C where he fits more naturally. But, whether Ristolainen is a part of that package or Montour or even somebody else; the Sabres will lose one of Risto, Montour, or Pilut in the expansion draft. They won't only protect 8 skaters, and their D is way deeper than their forwards are, so their 4th best D-man will be lost. The one player I don't see being moved or exposed is Risto. For the most part our defense is stocked with good skating defensemen who are more finesse type players than bangers. Risto is one of the few in that unit alongside McCabe who regularly hits the opposition. It seems to me that Krueger relies on Risto at the end of the game when a more defensive posture is required. I'm not saying Risto is our best defenseman because Dahlin is or will be. But he brings an element of physicality that the rest of the unit lacks. In addition, this big and intermittently dumb player can skate and under Krueger is playing a simpler and smarter game. It is this big man's skating ability that allows him to fit in with the rest of the unit and defensive scheme.
shrader Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 46 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said: I mean, that's my point. The cap is maxed due to Botts, not Murray, as opposed what @JohnC wants all to believe. As you point out, one player with a bad cap contract( and a useful player, just worth $2M, not $6M)..pretty standard in the NHL. But Botts somehow gets a free pass for this year with the " he has no cap flexibility so he could not improve the roster"..all the while he is the one that forced them into no cap flexibility. Great gig if ya can get it It's not just a this year thing though. We're talking about a multi-year process and others are now off the books. Botterill has not managed it ideally, but right from day one they knew more flexibility would come in the summer of 2020. If you look at next season's figures, there's really only one significant contract on there that wasn't expected and that's Skinner. Me personally, I don't see anything out of line with that one. He's going to bounce back. He'll probably never live up to a $9 million hit, but that's the life you live with free agents. Completely arbitrary, I know, but if he performs up to say a $7 million level, I can live with that. Every team in the league is going to be relying on some ELC guys to make up for that. 2
Taro T Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, JohnC said: The one player I don't see being moved or exposed is Risto. For the most part our defense is stocked with good skating defensemen who are more finesse type players than bangers. Risto is one of the few in that unit alongside McCabe who regularly hits the opposition. It seems to me that Krueger relies on Risto at the end of the game when a more defensive posture is required. I'm not saying Risto is our best defenseman because Dahlin is or will be. But he brings an element of physicality that the rest of the unit lacks. In addition, this big and intermittently dumb player can skate and under Krueger is playing a simpler and smarter game. It is this big man's skating ability that allows him to fit in with the rest of the unit and defensive scheme. Thing is, except for Dahlin, who is one of only 2 true untouchables, there is no other D-man that will bring back as much as Ristolainen would IMHO. Can see him not being moved, but can't see them getting a true #2C without moving him as part of the package unless Mittelstadt or Cozens grow into that role and both are at least 2 seasons away from being ready for it. Edited January 9, 2020 by Taro T
JohnC Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, Taro T said: Thing is, except for Dahlin, who is one of only 2 true untouchables, there is no other D-man that will bring back as much as Ristolainen would IMHO. Can see him not being moved, but can't see them getting a true #2C without moving him as part of the package unless Mittelstadt or Cozens grow into that role and both are at least 2 seasons away from being ready for it. I agree with you that with the exception of Dahlin Risto would give you the biggest return if dealt. But let's remember that it was widely reported that the GM was willing to deal him last offseason yet no deal was consummated. There are two possible reasons for him not being dealt, both of which are related from a Sabre perspective. One is that other teams weren't offering as much as the GM desired, and the other is Risto's value is considered very high within the organization. As I previously stated this team has a collection of good skating and passing defensemen. Risto has both of those attributed in addition to the fact that he adds an ingredient of toughness that the others don't provide. Why fix a deficit at the second center line only to create a deficit on a blue line for a multi-faceted defensemen who may be more difficult to replace? We have players in the pipeline who can play center. I believe that ultimately that Cozens will in time (probably two years) be a second line center. As it stands we don't have a replacement with the well rounded attributes that Risto has. Because of Risto's play I have altered my view of dealing him. My preference is to keep him and let the development process play out for the other prospects. It's my opinion that Joki is going to be a gem of a player. Next year I wouldn't be surprised if he is one of our first or second pairing defensemen. The GM is putting together a high end blue line unit. Let's build around that asset and steadily address our other weaknesses. 1
Taro T Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, JohnC said: I agree with you that with the exception of Dahlin Risto would give you the biggest return if dealt. But let's remember that it was widely reported that the GM was willing to deal him last offseason yet no deal was consummated. There are two possible reasons for him not being dealt, both of which are related from a Sabre perspective. One is that other teams weren't offering as much as the GM desired, and the other is Risto's value is considered very high within the organization. As I previously stated this team has a collection of good skating and passing defensemen. Risto has both of those attributed in addition to the fact that he adds an ingredient of toughness that the others don't provide. Why fix a deficit at the second center line only to create a deficit on a blue line for a multi-faceted defensemen who may be more difficult to replace? We have players in the pipeline who can play center. I believe that ultimately that Cozens will in time (probably two years) be a second line center. As it stands we don't have a replacement with the well rounded attributes that Risto has. Because of Risto's play I have altered my view of dealing him. My preference is to keep him and let the development process play out for the other prospects. It's my opinion that Joki is going to be a gem of a player. Next year I wouldn't be surprised if he is one of our first or second pairing defensemen. The GM is putting together a high end blue line unit. Let's build around that asset and steadily address our other weaknesses. Pretty sure we both appreciate Ristolainen. Not suggesting he get traded unless it is a true 2C in his prime or approaching it that's coming back in the package for him. Am probably a bit more willing to trade him that you because IMHO he doesn't work well with Dahlin and probably as early as next season Dahlin will start to be the work horse and that puts Risto as 2nd pairing not just in skill set where he's always been but in actual usage and well. And with them having a glut of 2nd pairing D (Jokiharju, Montour, McCabe, and possibly Pilut) not to mention a 5 in Miller, am willing to part with their 3rd best D for that elusive 2 C. Plus, one thing Botterill knows how to find are good D-men. Pretty sure he won't strip the D down too much. Not nearly as confident in him finding a diamond in the rough at F without giving a real package going out the door. Either way, it's probably moot as really doubt that Botterill will make a big move this season. Hoping to be wrong on that.
JohnC Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, Taro T said: Pretty sure we both appreciate Ristolainen. Not suggesting he get traded unless it is a true 2C in his prime or approaching it that's coming back in the package for him. Am probably a bit more willing to trade him that you because IMHO he doesn't work well with Dahlin and probably as early as next season Dahlin will start to be the work horse and that puts Risto as 2nd pairing not just in skill set where he's always been but in actual usage and well. And with them having a glut of 2nd pairing D (Jokiharju, Montour, McCabe, and possibly Pilut) not to mention a 5 in Miller, am willing to part with their 3rd best D for that elusive 2 C. Plus, one thing Botterill knows how to find are good D-men. Pretty sure he won't strip the D down too much. Not nearly as confident in him finding a diamond in the rough at F without giving a real package going out the door. Either way, it's probably moot as really doubt that Botterill will make a big move this season. Hoping to be wrong on that. In general our views don't diverge too much. But let me add another point about Risto and how he ranks in the unit. As far as I'm concerned I don't really care if one considers Risto to be a first, second or even a third pairing defenseman. It's not difficult to come to the assessment that Dahlin is going to be a special player. But even when he gets fully developed he is not going to be an elite defensive player compared to his offensive and puck moving ability. The point that I want to stress is that Risto has attributes associated with his physicality that Dahlin and most of the other defensemen don't have, and will never have. It's should not be surprising that in the end of the game when we are holding a tight lead and the other team is making a push Krueger is more likely to put Risto on the ice than Dahlin. We both agree that the Sabres don't currently have a second-line caliber center. So if you can't get one this year or next year you can still upgrade the second line with a more attainable quality winger on that line. With that winger upgrade you are still improving the line and its scoring potential. Or another way of looking at the problem is if you can't fix the issue directly you still can improve the problem indirectly.
K-9 Posted January 10, 2020 Posted January 10, 2020 7 hours ago, plenzmd1 said: Progress from what? The mess this current GM created? Current projected points 83, guess that is a big progression from the 78 when he inherited the team 3 full offseasons ago. The forwards you highlight were all here prior to this current GM. I know we are stuck with him now, but damn I would hate to be your boss in anything when you call 3 years and 5 pt improvement progress...if you knew before they hired JBOTs 3 years in you were signing up for a 5pt improvement..you still in on him? Well, it’s progress when compared to the regression that occurred his first season with Housley. 1
plenzmd1 Posted January 10, 2020 Posted January 10, 2020 Wow, we got that to look forward to for 3 months? Woohoo!!! Can you just imagine being a STH for this dreck. And then the Pegulas having the audacity to keep BOTTs and expect a different result. finally, please, someone explain how cap room next year makes this a better team. My I don’t understand hockey, but there are very rarely any UFA worth the contract, as far as I know unless you want to trade Jack, Dahlin, Joki, Cozens or maybe Goalfason you have no trade ammunition outside draft picks, but those are off the table gunna we gunna build through the draft. What a freaking mess. BTW, damn, do hockey players And teams ever buy into cliches and excuses. Hey, we had a lot of games in the last 20 days, we tired. Hey, we had 5 days off , can’t expect our effort to be there. Hey, ST Louis tough place to play. Hey, the humidity outside is a little high, can’t expect us to get net front.
4merper4mer Posted January 10, 2020 Posted January 10, 2020 15 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said: Wow, we got that to look forward to for 3 months? Woohoo!!! Can you just imagine being a STH for this dreck. And then the Pegulas having the audacity to keep BOTTs and expect a different result. finally, please, someone explain how cap room next year makes this a better team. My I don’t understand hockey, but there are very rarely any UFA worth the contract, as far as I know unless you want to trade Jack, Dahlin, Joki, Cozens or maybe Goalfason you have no trade ammunition outside draft picks, but those are off the table gunna we gunna build through the draft. What a freaking mess. BTW, damn, do hockey players And teams ever buy into cliches and excuses. Hey, we had a lot of games in the last 20 days, we tired. Hey, we had 5 days off , can’t expect our effort to be there. Hey, ST Louis tough place to play. Hey, the humidity outside is a little high, can’t expect us to get net front. Any one game, good or bad, doesn't phase me too much. I didn't watch this one so that probably helps, but we are 1-1 vs. St. Louis for the year which is fine. I agree that the cap space discussion is a joke. How will it be used if it is used? Can anyone point to one team in the past 5-10 years that turned their direction by using cap space? Waiting for Cozens for another three years or the supposed star goalie with the unpronounceable name is the "plan"? Because even when the optimists talk about the bright future, these are the two names that pop up. Two names and add in Pilut for a third even though he has been horribly mismanaged and should be here a year ago. Looking at 12 forwards and 6 D, and the Sabres roster, we need far more than those three and two of them come with a three year wait. Seattle is in better shape. I don't know the answer but it is clear that neither does Botts. His "plan" is very clearly not viable. I don't like the turnover but they really need, as an organization, to publicly define their timeline. We want to make the playoffs by 202x and contend for the cup by 202y. Can Botts meet that timeline? Does his current plan enable it? 1
Helpmenow Posted January 11, 2020 Posted January 11, 2020 Pitiful franchise just spinning their wheels. Sabres are on the back pages for me.
EmotionallyUnstable Posted January 11, 2020 Posted January 11, 2020 Best part of the Sabres ineptitude is the guaranteed longevity of the pizza and beer Sabres deal at Amherst Ale House during games http://amherstpizzaandalehouse.com/hockey-night-in-amherst/ 2 1
plenzmd1 Posted January 11, 2020 Posted January 11, 2020 1 minute ago, EmotionallyUnstable said: Best part of the Sabres ineptitude is the guaranteed longevity of the pizza and beer Sabres deal at Amherst Ale House during games http://amherstpizzaandalehouse.com/hockey-night-in-amherst/ that looks sweet!
plenzmd1 Posted January 11, 2020 Posted January 11, 2020 BTW, thank you weather gods... tee time 12:45, Sabres on at 1! Perfect!
4merper4mer Posted January 11, 2020 Posted January 11, 2020 28 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said: BTW, thank you weather gods... tee time 12:45, Sabres on at 1! Perfect! You golf fast. That's less than a minute a hole. 1
BillsFan4 Posted January 11, 2020 Author Posted January 11, 2020 Hutton is beyond awful. He’s not even an NHL goalie at this point. I seriously think that the Sabres have to consider waiving him and calling up Hammond or Johansson to be Ullmark’s backup. It’s like an automatic loss every time he starts (or at least the last 11 games...). McCabe is awful too. At least 2 goals today are on him.
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