Buffalo Sabres and NHL: 2019/20: Sabres season officially over. Draft lottery June 26th

[4merper4mer]

22 minutes ago, JohnC said:

There is an unrealistic faction here that believes that firing the GM is going to immediately alter the course of this franchise. This same delusionary faction with a childish fantasy hockey mentality believes that moves can easily be made to benefit your team at the expense of the other team with no cap consideration. The current GM traded for Skinner, Montour, Joki, Miller, Vesey and added Johansson over the past year or so and gave up little. As it stands the Sabres have a number of players on the last year of their contracts that will give the GM more flexibility in pursuing players next year.  

 

Hutton's play has hurt this team. In a compressed schedule it is difficult to rely on only one goaltender. The good news is that Ullmark is playing well so Hutton will be playing much less. I'm not one to make excuses. But if Hutton would have been playing at an average to above average NHL level this team's fortunes would look much differently. The worst thing this franchise should do is listen to the frantic voices calling for this organization to lurch back and forth and wasting time and prolonging the struggle to getting better . 

What year John?  What is a reasonable year to expect Botts to assemble a contending NHL team?  If you're Eichel can you wait until that year?  Is that year before or after the target year for Seattle?

 

He has had some time to build, he has a good coach and his roster is outplayed by teams like Calgary and Vancouver.

 

Joki? Good trade if you ignore their inability to develop Nylander.

Johanssen?  Nice piece, fills a necessary role.  

Skinner? Very good goal scorer currently wasting away on a horrible line at big $.

Montour? Miller? Ok but how about some O?

Vesey for next to nothing sounds like a pretty fair trade.

Three years in and still two solid NHL backup goalies.

Why didn't you mention the genius signing of Sheary or the insane reliance on Mittlestadt?

 

We're agreed that lurching back and forth isn't a good approach.  Is it better than being satisfied with no progress in a decade?

 

It's a joke because Botts is further over his head than a guppy in the Marianas Trench.  A new GM doesn't have to blow things up if he sees a path.  He has to be a lot lot lot better than Botts.  

[suorangefan4]

17 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

What year John?  What is a reasonable year to expect Botts to assemble a contending NHL team?  If you're Eichel can you wait until that year?  Is that year before or after the target year for Seattle?

 

 

 

So GMs can only get 2.5 years now?

 

The NHL is one of the hardest leagues to go from really bad to really good in just a year or two because the kids are only 18 when they're drafted. The Sabres first round pick this year (Cozens) isn't in the NHL yet because of it.

 

So there was no immediate help from the draft to help this year. That means only trades can be immediate help. So what really good player are we going to get without trading our first rounder? Unless you're a bonafide top tier team you don't trade first rounders away. 

 

It's easy to be mad with how this decade has gone but looking down the road we have Cozens coming and hopefully if we miss the playoffs this year we get another high pick that can help get us really good depth. If the 2019 and 2020 picks pan out then the team has the pieces to be really good.

 

 

[4merper4mer]

31 minutes ago, suorangefan4 said:

 

So GMs can only get 2.5 years now?

 

The NHL is one of the hardest leagues to go from really bad to really good in just a year or two because the kids are only 18 when they're drafted. The Sabres first round pick this year (Cozens) isn't in the NHL yet because of it.

 

So there was no immediate help from the draft to help this year. That means only trades can be immediate help. So what really good player are we going to get without trading our first rounder? Unless you're a bonafide top tier team you don't trade first rounders away. 

 

It's easy to be mad with how this decade has gone but looking down the road we have Cozens coming and hopefully if we miss the playoffs this year we get another high pick that can help get us really good depth. If the 2019 and 2020 picks pan out then the team has the pieces to be really good.

 

 

How long should he get?  1000 years?  Why only Cozens with the mention?  Why not other picks from other years?  Where are they other than Dahlin?

 

The point is that assuming guys will want to stick around awaiting Cozens and as yet drafted kids has already been proven wrong by O'Reilly.  If Eichel picked up the phone and called Pegula today, we'd be in instant rebuild mode with an inept GM at the helm.  He'd get more for Eichel than he did for O'Reilly but he'd get pummeled in that trade too.  He is way over his head and is willing to let years tick by without improvement.  He will never build a championship team.

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, suorangefan4 said:

 

So GMs can only get 2.5 years now?

 

The NHL is one of the hardest leagues to go from really bad to really good in just a year or two because the kids are only 18 when they're drafted. The Sabres first round pick this year (Cozens) isn't in the NHL yet because of it.

 

So there was no immediate help from the draft to help this year. That means only trades can be immediate help. So what really good player are we going to get without trading our first rounder? Unless you're a bonafide top tier team you don't trade first rounders away. 

 

 

 

 

What the zealot you are responding to is doing is conflating the current GM's tenure with the prior tenures of the earlier regimes. The current GM that he has selected to be his bogeyman has had to use his early time on the job assessing what he had in the system from top to bottom and then start cleaning up the mistakes of his predecessors. Although the disappointed fanatics wanted a miraculous immediate makeover they were embittered that their childish fantasy was not quickly fulfilled.  

 

The rebuilding of the roster that Botts inherited was not going to be a quick process to become a serious team. Rarely, if ever, does that happen. The prior GM tried to make the quick fix in order to be a contending team. It not only didn't help but it set us back. So out of frustration the zealots are essentially arguing to make the same foolish mistake i.e. take expedient short term action that doesn't get you anywhere meaningful except damage your near term future. It is not only a self-defeating strategy to take, it is patently stupid. 

 

The owner hired Botts. It was solely his decision. He hired him based on the plan the prospective GM laid out to him. What this GM is doing implementing the plan that the owner agreed to when he was hired. And that is exactly what he is doing. The impatient zealots can yell as loud and as long as they want. I'm confident that the owner/s are not paying attention to that irritating noise. 

[Nextmanup]

7 hours ago, Jrb1979 said:

The problem is with almost all teams at the cap its hard to make any moves. I disagree that Botterill hasn't made any moves. He rebuilt the defense since the end of last season. If the UPL keeps playing like he has in the minors I can see him up with the Sabres by mid season. 

 

My question, since you seem to think this is NHL 20 and trades are easy to make, what would your plan be? So far there has been a couple of minor trades of bottom 6 players. 

UPL will not be in Buffalo mid-season.

He's still a way's off from the National league. 

 

Botterill is trigger shy with trades b/c he got burned so badly on the ROR deal.

 

I often wonder if he is capable of moving beyond that.  If he isn't, he should be replaced on that basis alone.

 

 

 

[JohnC]

31 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

UPL will not be in Buffalo mid-season.

He's still a way's off from the National league. 

 

Botterill is trigger shy with trades b/c he got burned so badly on the ROR deal.

 

I often wonder if he is capable of moving beyond that.  If he isn't, he should be replaced on that basis alone.

 

 

 

I agree with you the UPL won't be with the big club next year. He is at least two to maybe three years away before reaching the NHL. He's certainly an asset in the system that needs developing. However long it takes it takes.

 

I also agree with you that the ROR deal turned out to be a boondoggle. Whether you agree with the deal or not there were understandable reasons why the organization felt the need to move this unhappy player. What is ironic is that now that the GM is apparently unwilling to deal a player or players because he can't get at least an equal value in return he gets criticized for his hesitancy. 

 

Botts is a GM who is not hesitant to make trades. That's a fallacy.  He traded for Skinner and paid a minimum price. He traded for Montour and didn't give up much. He traded for Miller for little to nothing. He traded Nylander, a player languishing in the system, and in return he got Joki, a player who is excelling right now. He acquired Johansson on the market. Vesey was a low budget acquisition. If you want to criticize the GM for being measured and thoughtful before making a deal then what you consider to be a criticism I consider to be smart and judicious. 

 

There were many reports that Risto was on the market. The asking price was high. And it should be for the big second pairing defenseman. The GM didn't get what he considered to be a good enough return so he didn't make the deal. That's the right approach to take. And the Risto bashers should take notice that he is currently playing very well for us. 

 

Terry Pegula has demonstrated that he is not the type of owner who is reluctant to fire coaches or GMs in his sports enterprises. I'm confident that when the time comes for that to happen with his hockey business he will make the move. My bet is that it is not going to happen soon because he has some common sense.  

[BillsFan4]

Wow, both McCabe and Mittelstadt healthy scratches tonight. 

 

Good! Both deserve to be sitting. Hopefully it’ll do Mittelstadt some good. He really should be in Rochester. Maybe once Thompson is back he will be? I think he needs to get his confidence back and going to the AHL could help. 

[Beast]

Okposo gets hit in the head and wakes up thinking he’s Wayne Gretzky.

[BillsFan4]

After that 1at shift by Edmonton I thought it was going to be a long night, but then the Sabres just slowly took over the period. I hesitate to compliment them because they always seem to make me eat my words, but that was a good 1st period. They were playing the way Krueger wants them to. I love when they play like this... Hopefully they can keep it up. 

[4merper4mer]

50 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I agree with you the UPL won't be with the big club next year. He is at least two to maybe three years away before reaching the NHL. He's certainly an asset in the system that needs developing. However long it takes it takes.

 

I also agree with you that the ROR deal turned out to be a boondoggle. Whether you agree with the deal or not there were understandable reasons why the organization felt the need to move this unhappy player. What is ironic is that now that the GM is apparently unwilling to deal a player or players because he can't get at least an equal value in return he gets criticized for his hesitancy. 

 

Botts is a GM who is not hesitant to make trades. That's a fallacy.  He traded for Skinner and paid a minimum price. He traded for Montour and didn't give up much. He traded for Miller for little to nothing. He traded Nylander, a player languishing in the system, and in return he got Joki, a player who is excelling right now. He acquired Johansson on the market. Vesey was a low budget acquisition. If you want to criticize the GM for being measured and thoughtful before making a deal then what you consider to be a criticism I consider to be smart and judicious. 

 

There were many reports that Risto was on the market. The asking price was high. And it should be for the big second pairing defenseman. The GM didn't get what he considered to be a good enough return so he didn't make the deal. That's the right approach to take. And the Risto bashers should take notice that he is currently playing very well for us. 

 

Terry Pegula has demonstrated that he is not the type of owner who is reluctant to fire coaches or GMs in his sports enterprises. I'm confident that when the time comes for that to happen with his hockey business he will make the move. My bet is that it is not going to happen soon because he has some common sense.  

Do you think Botts plans on having a starting caliber goalie on the roster during the three year window projected to await the kid?  

 

This is not a static zero sum game.  By the time Botts plans kick in Eichel will ask out and Skinner will be collecting Social Security.  The GMs job is to assemble a viable roster.  He's 0-fer on that and by your projection it'll be "a few years".....making sure to never name an actual year....but it's ok because he got Vesey for cheap?  Good gracious.  Vesey was cheap because he isn't good.  

[BillsFan4]

1 hour ago, BillsFan4 said:

After that 1at shift by Edmonton I thought it was going to be a long night, but then the Sabres just slowly took over the period. I hesitate to compliment them because they always seem to make me eat my words, but that was a good 1st period. They were playing the way Krueger wants them to. I love when they play like this... Hopefully they can keep it up. 

See!

 

I feel like this happens any time I say something nice about the Sabres during a game. 

 

Should I try saying something bad before the 3rd starts? 

 

?

Edited December 9, 2019 by BillsFan4

[JohnC]

45 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

See!

 

I feel like this happens any time I say something nice about the Sabres during a game. 

 

Should I try saying something bad before the 3rd starts? 

 

?

This western trip would have been a resounding success if that questionable call on Jack's late goal in the Vancouver game wasn't called back by a phantom penalty. 

 

This Krueger coached team is much more resilient and mentally tough than last year's team. In this last game on the trip this team consistently played hard with few lulls to their game. 

 

In my opinion Ullmark earned the first star and kept us in the game with some tough stops that Hutton can't seem to make during his current bad spell. If we would have gotten this caliber of goaltending more consistently this team would be in a much better place. 

 

One of my major complaints is that Jack doesn't shoot enough. I wish he would be more selfish for the betterment of the team. 

 

I thought Vesey played well in this game. Clearly, he's not much of a finisher but in the other aspects of the game he is very solid and responsible. 

 

It should be noted that In Miller's overtime winning goal both he and the primary assistor, Johansson,  were Bott pickups prior to the season. 

 

It was recently asked by one of the robotic and unrelenting critics when was the GM going to get a quality goaltender? The reflexive critic needs to open his eyes and watch the games when Ullmark is between the pipes. He is starting to emerge as a player. Ullmark is an example among a number of examples that the right way to build a team is primarily by drafting and developing.  

[JohnC]

The attached link is a recap of the game from the NHL site. 

https://www.nhl.com/gamecenter/buf-vs-edm/2019/12/08/2019020467#game=2019020467,game_state=final

 

The attached link is the conference standings taken from the NHL site. 

 

https://www.nhl.com/standings/2019/conference

[apuszczalowski]

2 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

Do you think Botts plans on having a starting caliber goalie on the roster during the three year window projected to await the kid?  

 

This is not a static zero sum game.  By the time Botts plans kick in Eichel will ask out and Skinner will be collecting Social Security.  The GMs job is to assemble a viable roster.  He's 0-fer on that and by your projection it'll be "a few years".....making sure to never name an actual year....but it's ok because he got Vesey for cheap?  Good gracious.  Vesey was cheap because he isn't good.  

I think UPL may shock a bunch of people and get called up sometime next year. So far in every league he has played in, he has been one of the top Goalies.

He was the top goalie in the OHL last season (saw him play in Niagara) and has already been the top goalie for the month in his first season in the ECHL.

I could see him getting a shot in Rochester soon and be playing their full time next season. If he keeps playing like he has, he could see the NHL faster then expected.

Edited December 9, 2019 by apuszczalowski

[BillsFan4]

 

 

46 minutes ago, apuszczalowski said:

I think UPL may shock a bunch of people and get called up sometime next year. So far in every league he has played in, he has been one of the top Goalies.

He was the top goalie in the OHL last season (saw him play in Niagara) and has already been the top goalie for the month in his first season in the ECHL.

I could see him getting a shot in Rochester soon and be playing their full time next season. If he keeps playing like he has, he could see the NHL faster then expected.

Yeah he’s been outstanding, especially considering he was playing with bad hips last season. He has the corrective surgery, misses like 5-6 months and steps right back in without missing a beat. 

 

Definitely one of the more exciting prospects in the Sabres pipeline. 

 

Im thinking that it’s more likely he gets a full season as the Amerks starter next year and a chance at the backup role the following season (when Hutton’s deal is up). But I wouldn’t be shocked to see him get some games next season if Hutton keeps playing like this and/or there’s an injury. 

 

 

[Cripple Creek]

19 hours ago, JohnC said:

There is an unrealistic faction here that believes that firing the GM is going to immediately alter the course of this franchise. This same delusionary faction with a childish fantasy hockey mentality believes that moves can easily be made to benefit your team at the expense of the other team with no cap consideration. The current GM traded for Skinner, Montour, Joki, Miller, Vesey and added Johansson over the past year or so and gave up little. As it stands the Sabres have a number of players on the last year of their contracts that will give the GM more flexibility in pursuing players next year.  

 

Hutton's play has hurt this team. In a compressed schedule it is difficult to rely on only one goaltender. The good news is that Ullmark is playing well so Hutton will be playing much less. I'm not one to make excuses. But if Hutton would have been playing at an average to above average NHL level this team's fortunes would look much differently. The worst thing this franchise should do is listen to the frantic voices calling for this organization to lurch back and forth and wasting time and prolonging the struggle to getting better . 

Why do you constantly berate anyone who doesn't agree with you?

 

unrealistic

immediately alter

delusionary faction

childish

fantasy hockey mentality

 

You try to come across as a holier than thou voice of reason. In reality, you a'int so different that we who you look down your nose on.

[shrader]

9 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

Yeah he’s been outstanding, especially considering he was playing with bad hips last season. He has the corrective surgery, misses like 5-6 months and steps right back in without missing a beat. 

 

Definitely one of the more exciting prospects in the Sabres pipeline. 

 

Im thinking that it’s more likely he gets a full season as the Amerks starter next year and a chance at the backup role the following season (when Hutton’s deal is up). But I wouldn’t be shocked to see him get some games next season if Hutton keeps playing like this and/or there’s an injury. 

 

 

 

I think at least for this season, he'll spend the vast majority of it starting in the ECHL.  It's worthwhile to give Johansson a shot at developing into an NHL backup and letting him stay in the AHL is best for that.  Hammond would have to agree to go to the ECHL, so he's there to stay too.  So injury is the only thing that could lead to a lengthy call up this year for Luukkonen.  It won't stunt his growth in any way, so it's probably the best approach for the organization as a whole.  He'll get called up for a game or two at a higher level late in the season, possibly even in the NHL, but that will be all.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Cripple Creek said:

Why do you constantly berate anyone who doesn't agree with you?

 

unrealistic

immediately alter

delusionary faction

childish

fantasy hockey mentality

 

You try to come across as a holier than thou voice of reason. In reality, you a'int so different that we who you look down your nose on.

You haven't dealt with this particular zany stalker that won't quit. While I refuse to respond to him he refuses to stop with his obsession of haranguing me. 

 

I don't look down on anyone who has a different opinion. There is a difference between expressing one's view and obsessively giving the same response to every topic of discussion. I don't think you know what is actually going on here. 

[JohnC]

14 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

Wow, both McCabe and Mittelstadt healthy scratches tonight. 

 

Good! Both deserve to be sitting. Hopefully it’ll do Mittelstadt some good. He really should be in Rochester. Maybe once Thompson is back he will be? I think he needs to get his confidence back and going to the AHL could help. 

Krueger judges players on performance. Reputations and draft status mean little when determining playing time. How he has handled Dahlin is an example of the notion of earning playing time. I'm sure that the players respect that in the coach. I don't get the sense that the coach is a "doghouse" type of coach where if you are not in his good graces you are exiled to the stadium box. He uses benching very measuredly and as a tool in order to get more out of the player. Mittelstadt has been given more than plenty of opportunities to improve his play. It's not that he has been bad but it is more that he has not been productive and he has not seemed to even marginally progress. As you suggested maybe a stint in Rochester will give him a fresh start. 

 

Of all the young players he has been the most disappointing. When you watch Olofsson you can see him add to his game as the season advances. I haven't seen that progression to his game at all in Mitts's play. Some players get rushed up and they eventually adapt to the more demanding league. While other players get rushed and they continue to struggle. So far he falls in the latter category. 

[BillsFan4]

21 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

How long should he get?  1000 years?  Why only Cozens with the mention?  Why not other picks from other years?  Where are they other than Dahlin?

 

The point is that assuming guys will want to stick around awaiting Cozens and as yet drafted kids has already been proven wrong by O'Reilly.  If Eichel picked up the phone and called Pegula today, we'd be in instant rebuild mode with an inept GM at the helm.  He'd get more for Eichel than he did for O'Reilly but he'd get pummeled in that trade too.  He is way over his head and is willing to let years tick by without improvement.  He will never build a championship team.

A good amount of Botterill’s picks are trending in the right direction. 

 

You can’t expect to see 2nd-7th round picks in the NHL a year or two after their draft. That is unrealistic. If you look at every team in the NHL, it is pretty unusual for 2nd+ round picks to play in the NHL so quickly. Even mid to late 1st round picks often take 2+ years to get to the NHL. Most mid round prospects take 3+years to hit the NHL. 

 

Heres a nice breakdown of his first 2 drafts -

 

https://www.diebytheblade.com/2019/6/19/18691578/buffalo-sabres-jason-botterill-first-two-nhl-draft-have-shown-early-promise

Botterill’s first two drafts have shown early promise

 

His drafts have been pretty strong and it looks like he could have quite a few hits outside the 1st round. Guys that look like potential NHL players or are at least trending in that direction:

 

From 2017: Ukko Pekka Luukkonen (goalie of the year) Laaksonen (totally unknown 3rd round pick that’s blown up since g drafted), Jacob Bryson (4th round, played a big role in getting his team to frozen 4), maybe Davidsson, and even Weissbach (his last pick in ‘17) had a surprisingly good d+1 season but I’m not sure I’d give him NHL potential yet.

 

From 2018: Samuelsson, Pekar (fan favorite), too early to tell on Cronholm and Kukkonen but they’re trending up for sure. 

 

 

 

As far as ROR, 1 player doesn’t prove anything, and it certainly doesn’t prove that Eichel will want out. Sure, if this losing goes on for years then I can see it. But as of now I see zero signs he wants out. In fact, I’d say just the opposite. I think he has fully embraced this team/city and his role as captain, and is dying to bring a winning team to Buffalo.

 

I’m sure not going to worry about it for now when there’s zero signs that it’s an issue. 

I mean, he’s in year 2 of an 8 year deal he just signed (at the time it was the 2nd highest contract ever signed for a player his age) . And he only wanted to sign a max term deal with Buffalo. They reportedly didn’t even discuss any shorter contract lengths. Both sides wanted to commit to the Max term.

 

 

With ROR it was obvious from his 2nd season that he was unhappy here.

But he had already put up with a bunch of years of losing in Colorado before coming here. He was in his 7th NHL season when he came to Buffalo and had only made the playoffs once in 6 years in Colorado. 

 

 

 

I think next season is when you’ll see more drastic changes to this team. 

A ton of cap space and a bunch of roster spots open up. 

 

Buffalo has $35+ M in cap space and as of now they only have 10 skaters + 1 goalie under contract for next season. A few are RFA’s so they’ll be back, but we have 7+ UFA’s so that’s potentially 7+ roster spots opening up. 

 

Changing a roster in the NHL is much more difficult than in the NFL. Every contract in the NHL is guaranteed and cap space is at a much higher priority (especially since it doesn’t rise nearly as fast as in the NFL).

 

 

 

Im not saying that I’m totally happy with Botterill or anything. I’ve posted numerous times complaining about him and the Sabres in general. I’m not at all satisfied with where this team is at and want changes/additions. But I don’t want moves made for the sake of making moves. I don’t want him to force a bad trade (like with ROR). 

 

So, for now I’m willing to be patient and see what he does this offseason. It appears his plan is a slower rebuild, which honestly should have been done the 1st time around. But the Sabres hired an ultra-aggressive GM that blew through all the picks/assets that had been collected. Really, I wish Botterill had been hired the 1st time around. You’re supposed to hire the patient GM at the start of the rebuild, THEN the more aggressive GM to come in if/when the team needs changes and/or to be put over the top (though Tim Murray was just a bad hire, so with hindsight I obviously wouldn’t want him to be hired at all...lol).