transplantbillsfan Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 It'd be great if he could live up to his potential, but also stay out of trouble the way Josh Gordon couldn't.
MasterStrategist Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: Yeah, it's absolutely rose colored. Maybe he just can't do it. But the picture of the guy is very clear: if there is any way, any way at all that he CAN do it, he WILL. This is one determined dude. May not be good enough, may screw up, may not make it for any number of reasons. But this is second-round talent with new-found determination to succeed that has stayed on track for two years. If he makes it, he's beating out Zay. Zay's not safe. It sounds like this guy is as good or better than Zay at everything. Definitely at making the big, contested catch. But also route running, runs after catch, blocking. He's a tough dude in all aspects of the game, and that's something we never say about Zay. No offense, but strongly disagree. We'll find out soon enough, but for everyone dogging on Zay, he's a safer bet than Foster. But I think Foster still makes it and has a role, speed/deep threat Edited May 4, 2019 by MasterStrategist
Shaw66 Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 23 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Really? How you get that? The incident at Auburn was, I believe, his SECOND problem. He got Auburn from junior college. He was in junior college because he got into some trouble coming out of high school or early at some other D-1 school. Junior college was something like his last chance, he succeeded, got to Auburn. Then he had the incident. When the Rams signed him, it was sort of like another last chance. He wasn't ready. Canada was REALLY the last chance, and he seems to have turned his life around. Problem is that there's always the fear that he'll screw up again. He's had a pretty bumpy road to get to a real opportunity in the NFL. It isn't clear whether he's going to take advantage of it.
Brianmoorman4jesus Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 I would be amazed if he makes the team regardless. If this guy was that good he wouldn’t have been out of the NFL this long. If he makes the team, fine. I just don’t see it. We are pretty loaded up at WR with guys that won’t be issues on or off the field. This guy is someone I see getting very little attention in the pre season and then just becoming a memory.
Shaw66 Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said: No offense, but strongly disagree. We'll find out soon enough, but for everyone dogging on Zay, he's a safer bet than Foster. But I think Foster still makes it and has a role, speed/deep threat You know, I've defended Zay for two years, and I'm starting to see him differently now. I'm having trouble identifying anything that he really does well. He's just out there, pretty good at taking what the game is giving to him, but not making anything happen himself. I can see him getting better at aspects of the game, but not being someone who drives the game, even a little. He's not ever going to be a solid number 2 receiver. To be a good no. 2 you need something special. You need to be like Robert Woods, who almost looks like a one but never really gets there. You need to be a big-time possession receiver. You need to stand out at something, and I'm not getting that from Zay. I think it would be unusual to let a second round guy go after only two seasons, so I'm not saying it WILL happen. That said, I'm not going to be surprised if it DOES happen.
Inigo Montoya Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 (edited) When we signed him I read a lot of articles about him and interviews with people talking about how he has played, and more importantly, how he has carried himself in the CFL. It was all uniformly positive. He will be the first to tell you that he is playing on his last chance. I think that is what he is talking about in this interview. He has no illusions of his situation. He knows he can't make anymore mistakes. When he says "I can play if I stay out of trouble." I think what he is really saying is, "I have always had the ability to play at the NFL level, I just kept screwing up and didn't take advantage of my opportunity. I realize that now." Maybe I'm just too forgiving, but it sounds like the light finally has come on. I'm excited to see how he plays in camp and during the pre-season. I'm still hoping he is a diamond in the rough. Edited May 4, 2019 by Inigo Montoya 3 3
Boca BIlls Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 6 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said: According to many on here, apparently having a chip on your shoulder is not a real thing. But it I agree with you. Duke brings a little something different to that receiver room that needs an edge and some swagger, ala Robert Woods. Both Duke and Sills bring that energy. Acording to many on here almost every player on the bills come with "Chips on Shoulders"
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 10 minutes ago, Lurker said: Check out his last 6 games with Edmonton last year--when they were making a big push for the playoffs and failed miserably. William's was a non-factor. All his yards and TDs came in the first part of the season...then, meh. " I see a guy who continually falls off the wagon. Gets called out, straightens up for a while, then reverts to bad / lazy habits. " I don't follow Canadian football and am not going to go look for game film 4 catches for 80 yds or 6 catches for 78 yds don't look like a total non-factor from here. It's 22% of his yards in 33% of the season, a drop-off, but not nothing. It's not unusual for any WR who is unexpectedly starring, to see his production fall off through the season as teams put their better guys on him and game-plan around him. It's certainly not what I would describe as "a guy who continually falls off the wagon" Do you have specific highlights or film clips where you see him dogging it or reverting to "bad/lazy habits"? 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 26 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: The incident at Auburn was, I believe, his SECOND problem. He got Auburn from junior college. He was in junior college because he got into some trouble coming out of high school or early at some other D-1 school. Junior college was something like his last chance, he succeeded, got to Auburn. Then he had the incident. When the Rams signed him, it was sort of like another last chance. He wasn't ready. Canada was REALLY the last chance, and he seems to have turned his life around. Problem is that there's always the fear that he'll screw up again. He's had a pretty bumpy road to get to a real opportunity in the NFL. It isn't clear whether he's going to take advantage of it. Articles say he didn't academically qualify for a D1 school, which is why he went the JUCO route. No history I can find of trouble in HS or "some other D1 school" At Auburn, he was benched for a bowl game, then suspended from the team, then he had the "incident". 3rd strike with the team. Yes, exactly, fear that he'll screw up again under the pressure and scrutiny of an NFL season. But also the concern that his success in the CFL won't translate to the NFL - no running start, narrower shorter field, shallower endzones gives the WR a "tougher life" against coverage in the NFL. 1
Shaw66 Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Articles say he didn't academically qualify for a D1 school, which is why he went the JUCO route. No history I can find of trouble in HS or "some other D1 school" At Auburn, he was benched for a bowl game, then suspended from the team, then he had the "incident". 3rd strike with the team. Yes, exactly, fear that he'll screw up again under the pressure and scrutiny of an NFL season. But also the concern that his success in the CFL won't translate to the NFL - no running start, narrower shorter field, shallower endzones gives the WR a "tougher life" against coverage in the NFL. All true. We'll know in September.
MasterStrategist Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 27 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: You know, I've defended Zay for two years, and I'm starting to see him differently now. I'm having trouble identifying anything that he really does well. He's just out there, pretty good at taking what the game is giving to him, but not making anything happen himself. I can see him getting better at aspects of the game, but not being someone who drives the game, even a little. He's not ever going to be a solid number 2 receiver. To be a good no. 2 you need something special. You need to be like Robert Woods, who almost looks like a one but never really gets there. You need to be a big-time possession receiver. You need to stand out at something, and I'm not getting that from Zay. I think it would be unusual to let a second round guy go after only two seasons, so I'm not saying it WILL happen. That said, I'm not going to be surprised if it DOES happen. Great post! Thing is, and this just might be me, but Robert Woods didn't look like a #2 (borderline #1) until he left the Bills. Our passing attack has been so bad for years. that is is difficult to assess how good our WRs are/were. When we trot out a bottom 5 offensive line, rookie QB (or Tyrod), and a different o coordinator each year, then how much can you really assess the situation? I hope we're both right, Zay continues his development into a #2 and Duke outplays him...that would be awesome! At least we have some competition at camp this year, so nobody will just be making the squad out of default 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 48 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: You know, I've defended Zay for two years, and I'm starting to see him differently now. I'm having trouble identifying anything that he really does well. He's just out there, pretty good at taking what the game is giving to him, but not making anything happen himself. I can see him getting better at aspects of the game, but not being someone who drives the game, even a little. He's not ever going to be a solid number 2 receiver. To be a good no. 2 you need something special. You need to be like Robert Woods, who almost looks like a one but never really gets there. You need to be a big-time possession receiver. You need to stand out at something, and I'm not getting that from Zay. I think it would be unusual to let a second round guy go after only two seasons, so I'm not saying it WILL happen. That said, I'm not going to be surprised if it DOES happen. What do you call the WR who leads his Conference-championship team in number of receptions and receiving yards, then? I'd say Woods has arrived as a top WR in the NFL by most people's definition. Top WR on one of the top 2 teams in the league? Shaw, you're not bolstering your credibility here. Zay drew the coverage of a #1 WR last year and still managed to lead the team's WR in receptions and receiving yards. I can buy that he's not nearly a #1 WR by most people's definition until/unless he takes another big step next year and he only drew that coverage 'cuz we had no one else, but to claim he's not ever going to be a solid #2 WR - that has to get a big verdict of "not yet proven" You're all over Sills and Williams, who haven't played a down in the NFL and you can't give props to Woods (the leading WR on a team that went to the Superbowl). Now Zay is "not ever going to be a solid #2". I think your WR judgement may need a tune-up. 1 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 14 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said: Great post! Thing is, and this just might be me, but Robert Woods didn't look like a #2 (borderline #1) until he left the Bills. Our passing attack has been so bad for years. that is is difficult to assess how good our WRs are/were. When we trot out a bottom 5 offensive line, rookie QB (or Tyrod), and a different o coordinator each year, then how much can you really assess the situation? I hope we're both right, Zay continues his development into a #2 and Duke outplays him...that would be awesome! At least we have some competition at camp this year, so nobody will just be making the squad out of default I agree with you that there should be some good competition at WR in camp this year. It's not just you. I think the Bills FO didn't see Woods as a strong #2/potential #1 until he left the Bills. And it IS hard to judge a WR with the passing attack we've had since Orton retired. If one looked closely, one could see that Woods was taking a step his last year here. His catch % and YPG took a step - everything but his # of targets, which stayed low because our passing game stayed so anemic. The history of craptastic passing is one reason it's been so hard to persuade good WR to come here. Buffalo's been the place WR careers come to die. Here's hoping that changes. 1 hour ago, HOUSE said: Heres a guy that needs another chance too. Can't get a tryout. Hard to get a tryout from your jail cell. Got another month. 1
Shaw66 Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: What do you call the WR who leads his Conference-championship team in number of receptions and receiving yards? I'd say Woods has arrived as a top WR in the NFL by most people's definition. Shaw, you're not bolstering your credibility here. Zay drew the coverage of a #1 WR last year and still managed to lead the team's WR in receptions and receiving yards by a lot. I can buy that he's not nearly a #1 WR by most people's definition until/unless he takes another big step next year and he only drew that coverage 'cuz we had no one to fear, but to claim he's not ever going to be a solid #2 WR - that has to get a big verdict of "not yet proven" You're all over Sills and Williams, who haven't played a down in the NFL and you can't give props to Woods (the leading WR on a team that went to the Superbowl). Now Zay is "not ever going to be a solid #2". I think your WR judgement may need a tune-up. I know. What you say makes some sense, but not enough to convince me. As I said, I've changed my mind about Zay. I used to say what you're saying. I think Zay will have a decent career in the league - five or six years or eight years. He can have a career that might approach but not quite get to what Cotchery did. People will be happy to have him on their team, he'll fill a need, but he's not going to be anyone's go-to number 2 for more than a year or two. That's what I see in him now. What I'm saying is that if I'm correct about his upside, it's possible that Williams could be just as good as Zay was last season and have better upside. And I'm saying that even could be true about Sills. Since Zay isn't likely to be the one driving the receiving corps - much more likely that's Beasley or Brown - Zay may not be all that important to the Bills in 2019, and even less important in 2020. If Williams turns out to be his equal in 2019, Zay's in trouble. 1
MrEpsYtown Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 2 hours ago, Boca BIlls said: Acording to many on here almost every player on the bills come with "Chips on Shoulders" Yep this is probably true as well.
Lurker Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: " I see a guy who continually falls off the wagon. Gets called out, straightens up for a while, then reverts to bad / lazy habits. " I don't follow Canadian football and am not going to go look for game film 4 catches for 80 yds or 6 catches for 78 yds don't look like a total non-factor from here. It's 22% of his yards in 33% of the season, a drop-off, but not nothing. It's not unusual for any WR who is unexpectedly starring, to see his production fall off through the season as teams put their better guys on him and game-plan around him. It's certainly not what I would describe as "a guy who continually falls off the wagon" Do you have specific highlights or film clips where you see him dogging it or reverting to "bad/lazy habits"? One TD in his last 5 games--when his team averaged over 320 yards per game in passing offense. William's wasn't producing at the CFL level when it mattered. Why should we think he can at the NFL level?
BBILL12 Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 It sounds to me like trouble follows him. He'll go out and some moron will want to challenge him. I hope one of the guys helps him stay clean until we see if he makes the team. By that time maybe he'll have made some other friends and has good people around him. The talent is there.
Mat68 Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 2 hours ago, Shaw66 said: I know. What you say makes some sense, but not enough to convince me. As I said, I've changed my mind about Zay. I used to say what you're saying. I think Zay will have a decent career in the league - five or six years or eight years. He can have a career that might approach but not quite get to what Cotchery did. People will be happy to have him on their team, he'll fill a need, but he's not going to be anyone's go-to number 2 for more than a year or two. That's what I see in him now. What I'm saying is that if I'm correct about his upside, it's possible that Williams could be just as good as Zay was last season and have better upside. And I'm saying that even could be true about Sills. Since Zay isn't likely to be the one driving the receiving corps - much more likely that's Beasley or Brown - Zay may not be all that important to the Bills in 2019, and even less important in 2020. If Williams turns out to be his equal in 2019, Zay's in trouble. I dont see it that way at all. Zay started his first year in the NFL. Williams didn't make the team. Last year Zay was the most consistent Wr on the team from week 1 to 17 with 4 different QBs throwing him the ball. Jones is battling for a starting position, and Williams is battling for the 53rd spot on the team. I dont see 1 thing as a football player, Williams is superior to Jones at. I think Zay suprises many this year and puts up good numbers. I would be more surprised by Williams making the team then Jones becoming a number 1 wr.
BuffAlone Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 9 hours ago, simpleman said: I don't care about chips or attitude. All I care is can they properly do their assigned tasks in the game, get separation, catch the ball, and extend the play. Its pretty simple, man 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Lurker said: One TD in his last 5 games--when his team averaged over 320 yards per game in passing offense. William's wasn't producing at the CFL level when it mattered. Why should we think he can at the NFL level? I’m a stats geek, but I’d have to look at details to answer that. Maybe opponents got the flick he was leading the league and took him away. Maybe he was playing injured. Maybe he was slacking as you believe. Can’t tell from the stat per se. I have no dog as to whether or not he can succeed at the NFL level. I’m not part of the cartel bumping Zay down the depth chart or trading him in favor of two UDFA, even if one did have success in the CFL. I hope they can come in and compete and show something, but even if they can in camp, the degree of difficulty ratchets up at showtime.
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