So why was Josh Allen a 1st rounder & Tyree Jackson Undrafted?

[Albany,n.y.]

51 minutes ago, Richard Crickets said:

Who is the greatest undrafted qb of all time? 

I don't know about ones from years back but the most recent one to go to the HOF is Kurt Warner, who got cut by GB as a rookie and you know the rest of the story.  What I think is most interesting is that in 1994 Warner was in the same camp with Farve, Brunell and former Heisman winner Ty Detmer.  To this day I believe it was the greatest group of QBs ever on one team, albeit in preseason, at the same time.  Two Hall of Famers, a pro bowler and a former Heisman winner who was a decent career backup and lasted 14 years in the NFL.  Combined, the 4 QBs played a total of 65 seasons.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Albany,n.y.

[bills11]

Because tyree jackson throws the pigskin like a mlb pitcher..hes not just inaccurate he sometimes misses targets 10 feet over their heads no exaggeration  

[mannc]

On 4/28/2019 at 7:52 AM, Buffalo716 said:

I have watched every snap of Jacksons career...

 

he may be physically similar to Allen but their actual quarterbacking skills are not on par...

 

for starters... Allen has a super crisp and quick release..,

 

Jackson has a very noticeable elongation in his windup...

 

in the NFL that is the difference betweeen a TD and a pick 6...

 

Josh Allen also had experience in a very pro style offense... routinely played in a system that asked him to read the whole field from 3-5-7 step drops 

 

TJ played in a gimmicky spread offense... he did read the whole field... but NEVER worked under center... maybe 1%...

 

Jackson also was on a loaded UB offense and he struggled at times.. 

 

Josh may have struggled at times but he was on a dog**** Wyoming offense... he CARRIED THE TEAM

 

Jackson didn’t carry UB

 

 

 

 

This is a plausible answer.  Again, I never saw Jackson play in college, so I'm not offering an opinion on him.  But some of this is subjective and doesn't make much sense. 

 

The Wyoming team Josh's Junior year was not dog****.  They had quite a few players drafted, IIRC, and some are still in the league. 

 

Plenty of QBs get drafted every year from "gimmicky spread offenses", including the guy who went first overall this year.  Did Kyler Murray ever work under center?  If so, I never saw it.

 

Re Jackson's "windup" and slow release, aren't those things teachable?  

 

Again, you've hit on some interesting differences, but IMO they don't entirely explain why one guy was seventh overall pick and one guy was undrafted.   I'm starting to think that a lot of times decisions like this are highly subjective and are subject to human error and preconceived notions.  I guess that's one of the things that makes the draft process so interesting and allows some teams to outperform others.        

[BullBuchanan]

11 hours ago, Richard Crickets said:

Who is the greatest undrafted qb of all time? 

Kurt Warner.

[mannc]

3 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Kurt Warner.

Tony Romo a close second.

[T master]

Well could we have a Tom Brady scenario in the making ? Could Allen get plastered by a LB on a run & have to sit out & because Barkley pulled a hammy in practice be thrust into the QB position after he beats out D.A. in camp ?

 

Then he goes on to win multiple super bowls while Allen is used to get other draft picks or is put to the #2 QB on the roster ? 

 

Well hey it happened once a guy can dream can't he !! ?

[78thealltimegreat]

Josh Allen would have competed with Kyler Murray for no1 overall this year...Tyree Jackson not so much 

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, mannc said:

This is a plausible answer.  Again, I never saw Jackson play in college, so I'm not offering an opinion on him.  But some of this is subjective and doesn't make much sense. 

 

The Wyoming team Josh's Junior year was not dog****.  They had quite a few players drafted, IIRC, and some are still in the league. 

 

Plenty of QBs get drafted every year from "gimmicky spread offenses", including the guy who went first overall this year.  Did Kyler Murray ever work under center?  If so, I never saw it.

 

Re Jackson's "windup" and slow release, aren't those things teachable?  

 

Again, you've hit on some interesting differences, but IMO they don't entirely explain why one guy was seventh overall pick and one guy was undrafted.   I'm starting to think that a lot of times decisions like this are highly subjective and are subject to human error and preconceived notions.  I guess that's one of the things that makes the draft process so interesting and allows some teams to outperform others.        

Look at Allen’s Last year team... he had no supporting cast... was running for his life all year... he had the worst line in the MWC

 

Jackson had the best line in the MAC and still struggled...

 

Yes, you can “ technically” fix a windup flaw but it isn’t likely... its muscle memory and he’s been throwing a football like that for a decade.. it’s set in stone and it’s bad

 

he also DIPS THE BALL VERY LOW in the pocket... that is also MUSCLE MEMORY and it is a horrible QB trait

 

you mentioned the gimmicky offense and how others can get drafted from it... yes, you can get drafted from the spread but you need to look for things that translate ...’

 

Baker and Murray and Mahomes had over 65% completion... and showed great touch in the short and intermediate game... 

 

Jackson had the best weapons in the MAC , the best line , and couldn’t even complete 60%... he also struggled heavily in games and has scattershot accuracy within 10 yards with no touch

 

Allen with talent around him threw for 28 TDs in a pro offense as a RS SO and carried his team the next year while running for his life... Jackson never carried UB

 

You can like it or not but I said in November that Jackson was not NFL caliber and I’m around UB daily and I know his flaws

 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Buffalo716

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Look at Allen’s Last year team... he had no supporting cast... was running for his life all year... he had the worst line in the MWC

 

Jackson had the best line in the MAC and still struggled...

 

Yes, you can “ technically” fix a windup flaw but it isn’t likely... its muscle memory and he’s been throwing a football like that for a decade.. it’s set in stone and it’s bad

 

he also DIPS THE BALL VERY LOW in the pocket... that is also MUSCLE MEMORY and it is a horrible QB trait

 

you mentioned the gimmicky offense and how others can get drafted from it... yes, you can get drafted from the spread but you need to look for things that translate ...’

 

Baker and Murray and Mahomes had over 65% completion... Jackson had the best weapons in the MAC , the best line , and couldn’t even complete 60%... he also struggled heavily in games

 

Allen with talent around him threw for 28 TDs in a pro offense as a RS SO and carried his team the next year... Jackson never carried UB

 

You can like it or not but I said in November that Jackson was not NFL caliber and I’m around UB daily and I know his flaws

 

 

It's a position where intangibles matter as much as talent.  You need to have an arm, a quick release, and need to be able to think quickly.  In the NFL you need to aid in setting the line, you need to work hard counts, run no-huddle, run plays from under center etc.  The teams confidence in your ability to do these things and excel at them is what might make someone determine what makes you a high or low pick.  Lots of guys with cannon arms, not a lot of guys get drafted so high JUST because of arm talent. 

 

You also need your QB to be a leader - to elevate the players around him.  To inspire their teammates to believe that they are never out of it.  Allen has that charisma, while others don't. 

 

Thats just the things I see when I see the comparisons.  

[BullBuchanan]

2 hours ago, mannc said:

Tony Romo a close second.

3 Superbowl appearances behind, though.

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

It's a position where intangibles matter as much as talent.  You need to have an arm, a quick release, and need to be able to think quickly.  In the NFL you need to aid in setting the line, you need to work hard counts, run no-huddle, run plays from under center etc.  The teams confidence in your ability to do these things and excel at them is what might make someone determine what makes you a high or low pick.  Lots of guys with cannon arms, not a lot of guys get drafted so high JUST because of arm talent. 

 

You also need your QB to be a leader - to elevate the players around him.  To inspire their teammates to believe that they are never out of it.  Allen has that charisma, while others don't. 

 

Thats just the things I see when I see the comparisons.  

Physically they are close but it’s all the intangibles you can’t see that sets them apart as you said 

 

Jackson doesn’t check boxes in Mechanics, release, Consistency 

 

He is the perfect madden QB where none of that matters

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

Physically they are close but it’s all the intangibles you can’t see that sets them apart as you said 

 

Jackson doesn’t check boxes in Mechanics, release, Consistency 

 

He is the perfect madden QB where none of that matters

 

 

Yeah, my buddy won our online league back to back years with Terrelle Pryor.  So frustrating, super fast and a rocket arm.

 

[mannc]

19 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Look at Allen’s Last year team... he had no supporting cast... was running for his life all year... he had the worst line in the MWC

 

Jackson had the best line in the MAC and still struggled...

 

Yes, you can “ technically” fix a windup flaw but it isn’t likely... its muscle memory and he’s been throwing a football like that for a decade.. it’s set in stone and it’s bad

 

he also DIPS THE BALL VERY LOW in the pocket... that is also MUSCLE MEMORY and it is a horrible QB trait

 

you mentioned the gimmicky offense and how others can get drafted from it... yes, you can get drafted from the spread but you need to look for things that translate ...’

 

Baker and Murray and Mahomes had over 65% completion... and showed great touch in the short and intermediate game... 

 

Jackson had the best weapons in the MAC , the best line , and couldn’t even complete 60%... he also struggled heavily in games and has scattershot accuracy within 10 yards with no touch

 

Allen with talent around him threw for 28 TDs in a pro offense as a RS SO and carried his team the next year while running for his life... Jackson never carried UB

 

You can like it or not but I said in November that Jackson was not NFL caliber and I’m around UB daily and I know his flaws

 

Thanks for the response. 

 

What  do you think about the Bills signing Jackson and do you think he's got a shot at making the roster as the developmental QB3?

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, mannc said:

Thanks for the response. 

 

What  do you think about the Bills signing Jackson and do you think he's got a shot at making the roster as the developmental QB3?

Of course he has a shot at the team... atleast PS...

 

I’ve had seasons since UB returned D1... I love them... I might sound like I hate him but TJ3 is a great kid and I wish him the best... what he did for UB was great... but I’ve been a scout/coach my whole life and I won’t sugar coat a prospect because I love his school or him

 

but he does have positives

 

 

he is in the 1% Of QB height, weight , speed... he is a phenomenal athlete with tremendous arm strength 

 

he can extend plays and throw on the run... he also throws a beautiful ball down the seam 

 

If Palmer can tweak his throwing motion we might have a solid backup

9 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

 

Yeah, my buddy won our online league back to back years with Terrelle Pryor.  So frustrating, super fast and a rocket arm.

 

I just won it with Deshone Kizer ?

 

ut doesn’t matter in madden lmaoo

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

7 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Of course he has a shot at the team... atleast PS...

 

I’ve had seasons since UB returned D1... I love them... I might sound like I hate him but TJ3 is a great kid and I wish him the best... what he did for UB was great... but I’ve been a scout/coach my whole life and I won’t sugar coat a prospect because I love his school or him

 

but he does have positives

 

 

he is in the 1% Of QB height, weight , speed... he is a phenomenal athlete with tremendous arm strength 

 

he can extend plays and throw on the run... he also throws a beautiful ball down the seam 

 

If Palmer can tweak his throwing motion we might have a solid backup

I just won it with Deshone Kizer ?

 

ut doesn’t matter in madden lmaoo

 

Nope!  Go with a QB who can scramble.  I personally like speed, but having a dominant #1 is awesome because some of the spectacular catch mechanics are just broken.  Plus money plays work with just about anyone so its about maximizing your yards afterwards.  Speed on certain routes, guys who can break a tackle and add extra yards on others.

[Buffalo716]

6 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

Nope!  Go with a QB who can scramble.  I personally like speed, but having a dominant #1 is awesome because some of the spectacular catch mechanics are just broken.  Plus money plays work with just about anyone so its about maximizing your yards afterwards.  Speed on certain routes, guys who can break a tackle and add extra yards on others.

Of course!

 

speed speed speed in madden!

 

thats why when I do a fantasy draft league with friends I always go CB round 1... need a good matchup with WRs

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, Buffalo716 said:

Of course!

 

speed speed speed in madden!

 

thats why when I do a fantasy draft league with friends I always go CB round 1... need a good matchup with WRs

 

I find myself playing a floating MLB in madden a lot so i usually get someone like wagner or keuchly.  Clog the middle of the field.  They have good hit power for popping fumbles on slot WRs too.  But good corners are awesome because you can play a lot more press coverage. 

[Buffalo716]

Just now, dneveu said:

 

I find myself playing a floating MLB in madden a lot so i usually get someone like wagner or keuchly.  Clog the middle of the field.  They have good hit power for popping fumbles on slot WRs too.  But good corners are awesome because you can play a lot more press coverage. 

I play as MLB or safety too but I don’t need a stud MLB out the gate, I like developing guys

 

i took Edmunds in a fantasy draft in an 8 team league... won MVP with him his rookie year ... 14 picks ?

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

7 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I play as MLB or safety too but I don’t need a stud MLB out the gate, I like developing guys

 

i took Edmunds in a fantasy draft in an 8 team league... won MVP with him his rookie year ... 14 picks ?

 

When we do the online franchise i'll grab a stud DE.  Torch the computer for tons of sacks.  When you play on all-madden they complete everything anyway, so the only way to stop them is to sack them.  

 

I sacked russell wilson 10 times in a game with mario williams ?

[Buffalo716]

Just now, dneveu said:

 

When we do the online franchise i'll grab a stud DE.  Torch the computer for tons of sacks.  When you play on all-madden they complete everything anyway, so the only way to stop them is to sack them.  

 

I sacked russell wilson 10 times in a game with mario williams ?

 

Lmao I play on all madden too...

 

with scramblers like Wilson I just put pass rush on conservative and they set the edge... then they always wind up scrambling out right into them lol

 

ill run a 34 95% and both my OLBs will always  have 15-20 plus sacks

 

i like taking bad project QBs and developing them too haha