So why was Josh Allen a 1st rounder & Tyree Jackson Undrafted?

[Buffalo716]

I have watched every snap of Jacksons career...

 

he may be physically similar to Allen but their actual quarterbacking skills are not on par...

 

for starters... Allen has a super crisp and quick release..,

 

Jackson has a very noticeable elongation in his windup...

 

in the NFL that is the difference betweeen a TD and a pick 6...

 

Josh Allen also had experience in a very pro style offense... routinely played in a system that asked him to read the whole field from 3-5-7 step drops 

 

TJ played in a gimmicky spread offense... he did read the whole field... but NEVER worked under center... maybe 1%...

 

Jackson also was on a loaded UB offense and he struggled at times.. 

 

Josh may have struggled at times but he was on a dog**** Wyoming offense... he CARRIED THE TEAM

 

Jackson didn’t carry UB

 

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Buffalo716

[mannc]

2 hours ago, 4thandGoal said:

Simple-- if you watched any of UBs games-- Tyree is not that good.  Also if Tyree wasnt playing for a college in Buffalo-- no one would care on this board of why he went undrafted. Same goes with the love for Anthony Jackson--

Another non-answer...

10 hours ago, Peace Frog said:

I think the question that should be asked is why was Tyree passed over by all of the teams in this draft?

That’s pretty much what the OP is asking.

[mannc]

11 hours ago, BigDingus said:

Josh Allen was always said to be a "project" QB, with a raw skillset but the physical attributes and athleticism that made him worth drafting on potential alone. Great size & arm strength were constantly noted, as were accuracy issues.

 

On the other hand, Tyree Jackson is said to be the liked for the same reasons. Great size and athleticism, fantastic arm strength, but also inaccurate. They both also faced similar criticisms for facing inferior competition throughout their collegiate careers.

Josh Allen is 6'5 and 240 lbs.

Tyree Jackson is 6'7 and 249 lbs.

 

Josh Allen's hand size is 10 & 1/8 inches.

Tyree Jackson's hand size is 10 & 1/4 inches.

Josh Allen's arms measured at 33 & 1/4 inches.

Tyree Jackson's arms measured at 34 & 1/4 inches.

 

Josh Allen ran a 4.75 second 40 yard dash.

Tyree Jackson ran a 4.59 second 40 yard dash.

 

Josh Allen had a 33.5 inch vertical jump.

Tyree Jackson had a 34.5 inch vertical jump.

 

***************************************************************************************************

 

So in terms of physical attributes, size & athleticism, they both are extremely similar in every way. Now to break down stats a bit:

Josh Allen's Completion Percentage his final season - 56.3%

Tyree Jackson's Completion Percentage his final season - 55.3%

 

Josh Allen's YPG his final season - 164.7 yards

Tyree Jackson's YPG his final season - 223.6 yards

 

Josh Allen had 16 TD's, averaging 1.45 TD's per game his final season. (28 TD's in 14 games the the prior season)

Tyree Jackson had 28 TD's, averaging 2.0 TD's per game his final season. (12 TD's in 8 games the prior season)

 

Josh Allen threw 6 INT's, averaging 0.54 INT's per game his final season (15 INT's, averaging 1.07 per game the prior season)

Tyree Jackson threw 12 INT's, averaging 0.85 INT's per game his final season (3 INT's, averaging 0.38 per game the prior season)

 

Josh Allen rushed for 204 yards on 92 carries, averaging 2.2 YPA his final season.

Tyree Jackson rushed for 161 yards on 55 carries, averaging 2.9 YPA his final season.

 

Josh Allen rushed for 5 TDs his final season (12 TD's in 2 seasons).

Tyree Jackson rushed for 7 TD's his final season (16 TD's in 3 seasons).

 

Josh Allen was 8-3 as a starter his final season, 8-6 the prior year.

Tyree Jackson was 10-4 as a starter his final season, 5-3 the prior year.

 

Josh Allen's Passer Rating his final season was 127.8, and 144.9 the prior year.

Tyree Jackson's Passer Rating his final season was 136.7, and 148.8 the prior year.

 

***************************************************************************************************

 

Again, awfully similar in most every category. One of the only other factors to consider is whether you value playing in the MW Conference or the MAC more. Wyoming finished with a 4th overall W/L record at 8-5 in the MWC in 2017, with Allen not leading in a single statistical category in the conference.

 

Buffalo finished with a 1st overall W/L record at 10-4 in the MAC in 2018, with Jackson leading in several major statistical categories in the conference (Ex: Most Passing TD's and Most Passing Yards). He also finished the season as the MAC's Offensive Player of the Year.

 

Anyway... TL;DR - What differences between them were so huge that it lead to a gap in draft position as massive as A) being a top 10 pick in the 1st round and B) being passed over by everyone & signing as an Undrafted Rookie FA? I'm not saying Tyree is as good as Allen, and I'm not saying he's even worthy of being an NFL starter. I just can't see how one is worth the risk based on physical attributes & flashes of great talent, while the other has equally impressive physical attributes and also shows flashes of great talent.

I mean, at least he should be worth a pick in the 4th round based on where Allen was drafted right? At worst, a 5th or 6th rounder... Can you imagine if Josh Allen fell to the 5th or 6th, or simply went undrafted? "Intangibles" can be thrown around to fill in for whatever explanation that doesn't exist for such a weird difference in draft stock, but that should only cover so much. 

On the other hand, I don't know if Jackson had any legal troubles or character doubts that I haven't heard about, but from what I know there wasn't anything noteworthy. So how did one guy profit so much his physical skillset while the other was written off for a very similar one?

This is a really good question and an excellent post.  IMO, no one has given a very convincing answer.  I have not seen Jackson play, so I can’t offer an opinion, but you’ve made a strong case that the two are pretty similar, at least on paper. Certainly nothing jumps out that should make one a potential first overall pick and another an UDFA.

 

Unfortunately, your legitimate question brought out some of the worst aspects of TSW:  over half the responses are either smart-ass non-answers or completely non-responsive.  And some of the responses, while honest, are unconvincing.  Josh’s “fighting spirit”?  Really?   The difference between the MAC and the WAC?  Please...  I’m sure there is a good answer to this question, but we haven’t seen it in this thread.

[HappyDays]

9 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

Yea, numbers are for nerds. Facts just get in the way of the tried and true ol' eyeball test.

 

Wasn't there a QB who threw 5 INTs in a single game who you continually propped up as a starter? So I guess your eyeball test is okay.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, The Bills Blog said:

Jackson just looks out of control on tape. He looks terrible.

 

This is it. Allen showed spotty accuracy and sometimes left the design of the play early. Jackson had those problems all the time. He is not inconsistent, he is consistently inaccurate and bad. The only reason he got any attention in Buffalo is that he played college here. I'll say as someone that did not want Allen last year I thought he would have been a good pick in the 2nd, and this year I thought Tyree would be a good pick in the 7th.

[mcdamit]

with qb being the most important position it is strange that nobody thought enough of Jackson to draft him.  Make him your third string for a couple of years and see if you can put him together.   Lots to work with here.  My guess is he spends the year on the Bills practice squad and battles it out for a roster spot next year.  

[JoPar_v2]

1 hour ago, Mark92 said:

Josh Allen week 17.......  17/26 for 224yds and 3 Tds.  Also ran 9 times for 95 yds and 2 Tds.   But yeah, Tyree is better ?.  

 

Where did the OP say (or even imply) that? I think he specifically said he wasn’t claiming Tyree was better than or as good as Allen. Even if he did, cherry picking Allen’s best game from last season isn’t contrary evidence.

[mannc]

10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

This is it. Allen showed spotty accuracy and sometimes left the design of the play early. Jackson had those problems all the time. He is not inconsistent, he is consistently inaccurate and bad. The only reason he got any attention in Buffalo is that he played college here. I'll say as someone that did not want Allen last year I thought he would have been a good pick in the 2nd, and this year I thought Tyree would be a good pick in the 7th.

Then why don’t these differences show up in the stats?

[HappyDays]

8 minutes ago, mannc said:

Then why don’t these differences show up in the stats?

 

Because that isn't what scouting is. I really don't get it. I'm a big stats nerd. I love analyzing data. But I would never think a college player's stat sheet has anything to do with their NFL prospects. At the NFL level you can glean a lot from stats, but in college some schools are practically playing different sports. Tyree was playing in a college offense. He didn't have to hit tight windows. He was chucking the ball 30 yards downfield to wide open receivers and he did it moderately well. He hasn't shown any NFL traits at all.

[Mark92]

46 minutes ago, JoPar_v2 said:

 

Where did the OP say (or even imply) that? I think he specifically said he wasn’t claiming Tyree was better than or as good as Allen. Even if he did, cherry picking Allen’s best game from last season isn’t contrary evidence.

Then this whole thread is pointless.  OP is directly comparing Allen to Jackson.  Yes I " Cherry Picked" Allen's best game because it's evidence of the difference between the two

 

  

Edited April 28, 2019 by Mark92

[Luka]

College stats do not translate to the pro game. How many Heisman trophy winners have to bust before this is understood. Mechanics, footwork, white board work, delivery, facing adversity, consistency etc. are all more important than the stats. As Happy said before, he didn't play in a pro style system, he looks like he is laboring to throw the ball further than 40 yards, he never took over a game or dominated the competition. And that is in a very weak conference. I think the first thing you look for in a small school guy is, is he the best player on the field in a good portion of his film?

[JoPar_v2]

Just now, Mark92 said:

Then this whole thread is pointless.  OP is directly comparing Allen to Jackson.  Yes I " Cherry Picked" Allen's best game because it's evidence of the difference between the two

 

  

 

It’s one of the best threads that’s been started here in weeks, maybe months. Cherry picked doesn’t need to be in quotes that’s exactly what you did. And it’s not a valid comparison because one guy has pro experience and one guy does not. Picking one game (also his best game) from last season just makes what you did worse. The statistical comparisons the OP made in his original post are relevant, yours is not. If the thread is pointless why are you here? 

[C.Biscuit97]

Honestly, I’m shocked Jackson wasn’t drafted.  There are a ton of guys who have no chance at sniffing a roster that I would have rather taken a chance with a developmental qb with his tools.  But posters are right that weirdly his height hurts him.  Big guys like Dan McGwire, Brock Osweiler, and Peyton Lynch didn’t help him.  But like Wilson and Brees, if Jackson succeeds, that could start a new trend.

 

Even if he doesn’t make it, I like the forward thinking by the Bills.  At least try and don’t settle.  We need a vet backup but Barkley and Anderson were able to be signed during the season for a reason.  They are very low end, replaceable backups.  You need one of them but 2 is probably overkill.

[Mark92]

 

14 minutes ago, JoPar_v2 said:

 

It’s one of the best threads that’s been started here in weeks, maybe months. Cherry picked doesn’t need to be in quotes that’s exactly what you did. And it’s not a valid comparison because one guy has pro experience and one guy does not. Picking one game (also his best game) from last season just makes what you did worse. The statistical comparisons the OP made in his original post are relevant, yours is not. If the thread is pointless why are you here? 

I SAID I cherry Picked his best game to prove a point.  I knowingly did that because I do not believe Jackson can be that good in the NFL.  Pure talent is why Allen was a top 10 pick and Jackson ended up undrafted.  On paper many things look similar but watch them both play and you will see the difference.   OP started this thread posing a question as to WHY they were so far apart when it came to draft grades.  I am giving my opinion.  It was great work on the part of the OP though.  Just because things look close on paper doesn't mean they are on the field.  Sorry that you don't find my posts relevant.  I'll make sure to run my opinions by you first from now on.  ?

 

 

[BullBuchanan]

2 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I always find it odd that a throwing motion can be such a problem. You would figure to earn a 100 mil that a dude could learn to improve it.

They can, but NFL teams are risk averse and most of the best coaches work in the NFL, so they aren't available for private tutelage. I'm sure that Jordan Palmer is good at what he does, but is he the best?

 

28 minutes ago, Mark92 said:

Then this whole thread is pointless.  OP is directly comparing Allen to Jackson.  Yes I " Cherry Picked" Allen's best game because it's evidence of the difference between the two

 

  

This thread is only pointless for people without reading comprehension that took it as "Ermergerd, He's saying Jackson is as good as Allen!" That's not the point of the post at all. The actual point, which is 2 QBs with the same athletic abilities and similar stats go to the NFL. One never wins in college in a weak conference but gets drafted 7th overall and the other wins a ton in a weak conference but goes undrafted. If those things don't make up the difference, what does? It's not arm talent, speed, size, strength, or winning - which are all things people commonly consider when drafting QBs.

Edited April 28, 2019 by BullBuchanan

[Rampage]

2 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

They can, but NFL teams are risk averse and most of the best coaches work in the NFL, so they aren't available for private tutelage. I'm sure that Jordan Palmer is good at what he does, but is he the best?

 

This thread is only pointless for people without reading comprehension that took it as "Ermergerd, He's saying Jackson is as good as Allen!" That's not the point of the post at all. The actual point, which is 2 QBs with the same athletic abilities and similar stats go to the NFL. One never wins in college in a weak conference but gets drafted 7th overall and the other wins a ton in a weak conference but goes undrafted. If those things don't make up the difference, what does? It's not arm talent, speed, size, strength, or winning - which are all things people commonly consider when drafting QBs.

You’re not a scout. Teams put on the tape and obviously saw Josh Allen had the arm strength, footwork and throwing motion to put it together at the next level. He also obviously nailed his interviews, board work and background checks.

 

If you draft based on the stat sheet you’re gonna end up like the Raiders. Or us before Beane.

[BullBuchanan]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

Wasn't there a QB who threw 5 INTs in a single game who you continually propped up as a starter? So I guess your eyeball test is okay.

Was it Drew Brees or Russel Wilson, I don't remember.

Just now, Rampage said:

You’re not a scout. Teams put on the tape and obviously saw Josh Allen had the arm strength, footwork and throwing motion to put it together at the next level. He also obviously nailed his interviews, board work and background checks.

 

If you draft based on the stat sheet you’re gonna end up like the Raiders. Or us before Beane.

God, no one is saying that. Read slower, it'll do wonders.

[Guest K-GunJimKelly12]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

They can, but NFL teams are risk averse and most of the best coaches work in the NFL, so they aren't available for private tutelage. I'm sure that Jordan Palmer is good at what he does, but is he the best?

 

This thread is only pointless for people without reading comprehension that took it as "Ermergerd, He's saying Jackson is as good as Allen!" That's not the point of the post at all. The actual point, which is 2 QBs with the same athletic abilities and similar stats go to the NFL. One never wins in college in a weak conference but gets drafted 7th overall and the other wins a ton in a weak conference but goes undrafted. If those things don't make up the difference, what does? It's not arm talent, speed, size, strength, or winning - which are all things people commonly consider when drafting QBs.

I watched both of these guys a lot in college.  Pretty much every game Jackson played.  The weapons Jackson had on offense were better than their competition and helped Jackson a lot.  In 2017 when Jackson was injured, one could argue that Drew Anderson ran the offense better than Jackson and they may be right.

 

Allen on the other hand carried that Wyoming team.  They were terrible before before he got there and when he was injured, the production from the QB position decreased significantly.

 

All you have to do is watch the tape and you will know why. 

 

Also saying they have the same athletic abilities is absurd.  They both might have strong arms and the ability to run, but that doesn't mean it translates directly into game action the same or their abilities are the same.  Jackson will never match  to Allen's arm strength or come close to Allen's ability to make plays on the run, with both his arm and legs.

 

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by K-GunJimKelly12

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Was it Drew Brees or Russel Wilson, I don't remember.

God, no one is saying that. Read slower, it'll do wonders.

Tony Romo did too.

[Mark92]

3 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

They can, but NFL teams are risk averse and most of the best coaches work in the NFL, so they aren't available for private tutelage. I'm sure that Jordan Palmer is good at what he does, but is he the best?

 

This thread is only pointless for people without reading comprehension that took it as "Ermergerd, He's saying Jackson is as good as Allen!" That's not the point of the post at all. The actual point, which is 2 QBs with the same athletic abilities and similar stats go to the NFL. One never wins in college in a weak conference but gets drafted 7th overall and the other wins a ton in a weak conference but goes undrafted. If those things don't make up the difference, what does? It's not arm talent, speed, size, strength, or winning - which are all things people commonly consider when drafting QBs.

OP is directly comparing the two players as are you  Yes is it's not the purpose of the thread but it is a comparison thread.