So why was Josh Allen a 1st rounder & Tyree Jackson Undrafted?

[BullBuchanan]

7 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Jackson has an odd and elongated delivery while Allen's is clean and quick.  That's a small but huge difference.  Also, Jackson had more talent around him while Allen was Wyoming's offense.

I guess he was working with Jordan Palmer on that. Palmer said good progress but still work to do, meaning probably quite a bit. You dont change things like that overnight.

[Cheektowaga Chad]

I feel bad for the amount you wrote on this topic, I am drunk but its pretty simple, Allen was and is a nfl QB. Stats are not everything. Jackson is no where near a QB that should be starting in the nfl. He should still be the QB for the bulls in the mid American conference

[LABILLBACKER]

One stat you left out was velocity.  Josh throws so hard that when he is off target, the dbs wont be able to catch the int. I think TJ eventually replaces Anderson, but he won't be as polished as Barkley for the backup spot. Good signing anyway!

[LeGOATski]

Better question is why was Tyree a UFA while Paxton Lynch was a 1st rounder....

 

.... Or Brock Osweiler a 2nd rounder...

[tumaro02]

Saying Jackson is "as good as" Allen shows how misinformed you are. 6 NFL teams passed on Allen. 224 teams passed on Jackson. Obviously your analysis is errant unless you know more than the other 32 teams x 7. Using "stats" to judge "talent" is a fool's business as you are learning.

[Doc Brown]

4 hours ago, BigDingus said:

I'm not saying Tyree is as good as Allen, and I'm not saying he's even worthy of being an NFL starter. 

 

9 minutes ago, tumaro02 said:

Saying Jackson is "as good as" Allen shows how misinformed you are. 6 NFL teams passed on Allen. 224 teams passed on Jackson. Obviously your analysis is errant unless you know more than the other 32 teams x 7. Using "stats" to judge "talent" is a fool's business as you are learning.

Reading comprehension difficulties?  The OP was just interested in why Allen was a better prospect than Jackson despite similar measurables.  No need to jump all over the guy.

[Rochesterfan]

5 hours ago, BigDingus said:

Josh Allen was always said to be a "project" QB, with a raw skillset but the physical attributes and athleticism that made him worth drafting on potential alone. Great size & arm strength were constantly noted, as were accuracy issues.

 

On the other hand, Tyree Jackson is said to be the liked for the same reasons. Great size and athleticism, fantastic arm strength, but also inaccurate. They both also faced similar criticisms for facing inferior competition throughout their collegiate careers.

Josh Allen is 6'5 and 240 lbs.

Tyree Jackson is 6'7 and 249 lbs.

 

Josh Allen's hand size is 10 & 1/8 inches.

Tyree Jackson's hand size is 10 & 1/4 inches.

Josh Allen's arms measured at 33 & 1/4 inches.

Tyree Jackson's arms measured at 34 & 1/4 inches.

 

Josh Allen ran a 4.75 second 40 yard dash.

Tyree Jackson ran a 4.59 second 40 yard dash.

 

Josh Allen had a 33.5 inch vertical jump.

Tyree Jackson had a 34.5 inch vertical jump.

 

***************************************************************************************************

 

So in terms of physical attributes, size & athleticism, they both are extremely similar in every way. Now to break down stats a bit:

Josh Allen's Completion Percentage his final season - 56.3%

Tyree Jackson's Completion Percentage his final season - 55.3%

 

Josh Allen's YPG his final season - 164.7 yards

Tyree Jackson's YPG his final season - 223.6 yards

 

Josh Allen had 16 TD's, averaging 1.45 TD's per game his final season. (28 TD's in 14 games the the prior season)

Tyree Jackson had 28 TD's, averaging 2.0 TD's per game his final season. (12 TD's in 8 games the prior season)

 

Josh Allen threw 6 INT's, averaging 0.54 INT's per game his final season (15 INT's, averaging 1.07 per game the prior season)

Tyree Jackson threw 12 INT's, averaging 0.85 INT's per game his final season (3 INT's, averaging 0.38 per game the prior season)

 

Josh Allen rushed for 204 yards on 92 carries, averaging 2.2 YPA his final season.

Tyree Jackson rushed for 161 yards on 55 carries, averaging 2.9 YPA his final season.

 

Josh Allen rushed for 5 TDs his final season (12 TD's in 2 seasons).

Tyree Jackson rushed for 7 TD's his final season (16 TD's in 3 seasons).

 

Josh Allen was 8-3 as a starter his final season, 8-6 the prior year.

Tyree Jackson was 10-4 as a starter his final season, 5-3 the prior year.

 

Josh Allen's Passer Rating his final season was 127.8, and 144.9 the prior year.

Tyree Jackson's Passer Rating his final season was 136.7, and 148.8 the prior year.

 

***************************************************************************************************

 

Again, awfully similar in most every category. One of the only other factors to consider is whether you value playing in the MW Conference or the MAC more. Wyoming finished with a 4th overall W/L record at 8-5 in the MWC in 2017, with Allen not leading in a single statistical category in the conference.

 

Buffalo finished with a 1st overall W/L record at 10-4 in the MAC in 2018, with Jackson leading in several major statistical categories in the conference (Ex: Most Passing TD's and Most Passing Yards). He also finished the season as the MAC's Offensive Player of the Year.

 

Anyway... TL;DR - What differences between them were so huge that it lead to a gap in draft position as massive as A) being a top 10 pick in the 1st round and B) being passed over by everyone & signing as an Undrafted Rookie FA? I'm not saying Tyree is as good as Allen, and I'm not saying he's even worthy of being an NFL starter. I just can't see how one is worth the risk based on physical attributes & flashes of great talent, while the other has equally impressive physical attributes and also shows flashes of great talent.

I mean, at least he should be worth a pick in the 4th round based on where Allen was drafted right? At worst, a 5th or 6th rounder... Can you imagine if Josh Allen fell to the 5th or 6th, or simply went undrafted? "Intangibles" can be thrown around to fill in for whatever explanation that doesn't exist for such a weird difference in draft stock, but that should only cover so much. 

On the other hand, I don't know if Jackson had any legal troubles or character doubts that I haven't heard about, but from what I know there wasn't anything noteworthy. So how did one guy profit so much his physical skillset while the other was written off for a very similar one?

 

 

My guess is all of this is true, but for QB what drives getting drafted - interviews, wonderlic, and especially how they do at the board diagnosing plays and understanding what they are seeing.

 

I think what the stats miss is just how intelligent Josh Allen was and how well prepared his coach made him.  Most people tried to tell Tyree he needed another year of college to mature and learn and I think that was the biggest difference.

[Thurman#1]

5 hours ago, NoSaint said:

Though a small piece may be that 6’7 curse for qbs. Seems to not go over well and spook scouts. 

 

Im not saying 2 inches accounts for all but likely is a factor between being 3rd an off the board and whatever went ahead of tyree 

 

 

This.

 

Josh Allen is considered the physical model of what you want in a QB. Allen fits the prototype of what teams want, physically, in a pocket QB, though he ended up having terrific running ability as well. Almost too tall, but instead, right in the bullseye.

 

Tyree is considered too tall. There has never been a QB successful in the NFL at his height. It's considered difficult to put together your mechanics with arms and legs that long, and that has held up over history.

 

Not that that proves what their outcomes will be. But this is how the NFL looks at people. Are you the prototype, or are you a type that has never succeeded.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Thurman#1

[ehfeuh57]

if you think Allen is inaccurate, you haven't watched Tyree

[Virgil]

5 hours ago, NoSaint said:

I’m not saying 2 inches accounts for all but likely is a factor between being 3rd an off the board and whatever went ahead of tyree 

 

Who told you!  She’s lying ?

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, Peace Frog said:

I think the question that should be asked is why was Tyree passed over by all of the teams in this draft?

 

When a couple of clearly inferior guys were drafted. I mean Elon Stick? Really? 

[Malazan]

Why is the leading scorer in the AHL not given the reverence and salary as the leading scorer in the NHL?

[Mrbojanglezs]

Josh played in pro offense, Josh's mechanics more refined, im sure Josh was much better on the white board with schematic questions

Edited April 28, 2019 by Mrbojanglezs

[mjpbills]

The Bills signed him

[Rico]

7 hours ago, NoSaint said:

Though a small piece may be that 6’7 curse for qbs. Seems to not go over well and spook scouts. 

 

Im not saying 2 inches accounts for all but likely is a factor between being 3rd an off the board and whatever went ahead of tyree 

Yep. Lurch QB, that’s why.

[dollars 2 donuts]

7 hours ago, MJS said:

Great point. Allen was all his team had. I haven't watched UB or Jackson, but I suspect he had help where as Allen had none. It required super human effort to elevate his crappy team at Wyoming.

 

MJS, as someone who watched UB and assessing your point, Tyree had great receivers, two great RBs and a great offensive line for the MAC.

 

If you consider the graduations taking place for UB this is the reason why he tried to transfer or, as ended up finally, he declared for the draft...the same team was not coming back and he figured he’d strike while the iron is hot.

[mjpbills]

7 hours ago, BigDingus said:

Josh Allen was always said to be a "project" QB, with a raw skillset but the physical attributes and athleticism that made him worth drafting on potential alone. Great size & arm strength were constantly noted, as were accuracy issues.

 

On the other hand, Tyree Jackson is said to be the liked for the same reasons. Great size and athleticism, fantastic arm strength, but also inaccurate. They both also faced similar criticisms for facing inferior competition throughout their collegiate careers.

Josh Allen is 6'5 and 240 lbs.

Tyree Jackson is 6'7 and 249 lbs.

 

Josh Allen's hand size is 10 & 1/8 inches.

Tyree Jackson's hand size is 10 & 1/4 inches.

Josh Allen's arms measured at 33 & 1/4 inches.

Tyree Jackson's arms measured at 34 & 1/4 inches.

 

Josh Allen ran a 4.75 second 40 yard dash.

Tyree Jackson ran a 4.59 second 40 yard dash.

 

Josh Allen had a 33.5 inch vertical jump.

Tyree Jackson had a 34.5 inch vertical jump.

 

***************************************************************************************************

 

So in terms of physical attributes, size & athleticism, they both are extremely similar in every way. Now to break down stats a bit:

Josh Allen's Completion Percentage his final season - 56.3%

Tyree Jackson's Completion Percentage his final season - 55.3%

 

Josh Allen's YPG his final season - 164.7 yards

Tyree Jackson's YPG his final season - 223.6 yards

 

Josh Allen had 16 TD's, averaging 1.45 TD's per game his final season. (28 TD's in 14 games the the prior season)

Tyree Jackson had 28 TD's, averaging 2.0 TD's per game his final season. (12 TD's in 8 games the prior season)

 

Josh Allen threw 6 INT's, averaging 0.54 INT's per game his final season (15 INT's, averaging 1.07 per game the prior season)

Tyree Jackson threw 12 INT's, averaging 0.85 INT's per game his final season (3 INT's, averaging 0.38 per game the prior season)

 

Josh Allen rushed for 204 yards on 92 carries, averaging 2.2 YPA his final season.

Tyree Jackson rushed for 161 yards on 55 carries, averaging 2.9 YPA his final season.

 

Josh Allen rushed for 5 TDs his final season (12 TD's in 2 seasons).

Tyree Jackson rushed for 7 TD's his final season (16 TD's in 3 seasons).

 

Josh Allen was 8-3 as a starter his final season, 8-6 the prior year.

Tyree Jackson was 10-4 as a starter his final season, 5-3 the prior year.

 

Josh Allen's Passer Rating his final season was 127.8, and 144.9 the prior year.

Tyree Jackson's Passer Rating his final season was 136.7, and 148.8 the prior year.

 

***************************************************************************************************

 

Again, awfully similar in most every category. One of the only other factors to consider is whether you value playing in the MW Conference or the MAC more. Wyoming finished with a 4th overall W/L record at 8-5 in the MWC in 2017, with Allen not leading in a single statistical category in the conference.

 

Buffalo finished with a 1st overall W/L record at 10-4 in the MAC in 2018, with Jackson leading in several major statistical categories in the conference (Ex: Most Passing TD's and Most Passing Yards). He also finished the season as the MAC's Offensive Player of the Year.

 

Anyway... TL;DR - What differences between them were so huge that it lead to a gap in draft position as massive as A) being a top 10 pick in the 1st round and B) being passed over by everyone & signing as an Undrafted Rookie FA? I'm not saying Tyree is as good as Allen, and I'm not saying he's even worthy of being an NFL starter. I just can't see how one is worth the risk based on physical attributes & flashes of great talent, while the other has equally impressive physical attributes and also shows flashes of great talent.

I mean, at least he should be worth a pick in the 4th round based on where Allen was drafted right? At worst, a 5th or 6th rounder... Can you imagine if Josh Allen fell to the 5th or 6th, or simply went undrafted? "Intangibles" can be thrown around to fill in for whatever explanation that doesn't exist for such a weird difference in draft stock, but that should only cover so much. 

On the other hand, I don't know if Jackson had any legal troubles or character doubts that I haven't heard about, but from what I know there wasn't anything noteworthy. So how did one guy profit so much his physical skillset while the other was written off for a very similar one?

Signed By the Bills

[PromoTheRobot]

6 hours ago, Peace Frog said:

I think the question that should be asked is why was Tyree passed over by all of the teams in this draft?

 

My guess? His tape from the second half of last season. Especially the MAC Championship game. Bad decisions galore.

[PromoTheRobot]

12 minutes ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

MJS, as someone who watched UB and assessing your point, Tyree had great receivers, two great RBs and a great offensive line for the MAC.

 

If you consider the graduations taking place for UB this is the reason why he tried to transfer or, as ended up finally, he declared for the draft...the same team was not coming back and he figured he’d strike while the iron is hot.

 

Actually, UB would still have a lot of talent left this season if not for Tyree first trying to transfer, then declaring for the draft.  TE Mabry and WR Osborne transferred as did one of his terrific RBs. 

 

As for the question about character raised by @BigDingus, Jackson had no issues whatsoever.

Edited April 28, 2019 by PromoTheRobot

[racketmaster]

There are a number of differences beyond the numbers because we know the numbers were not what got Allen drafted that high last year.

Amongst other things:

1. Allen has a quicker release as Jackson’s is a little more elongated. 

2. Allen was the better runner.

3. Maybe most importantly, Allen appeared to have a higher competitive spirit on the field. I often go back to the Iowa game that Allen gets torched for and recall a play in which another jailbreak occurred and it took 9 Iowa defenders to bring Allen down because he just kept fighting and would not give up on the play. I saw Jackson as a player that seeemed to be on cruise control most of the time. Some of that is that he is tall and smooth but I also did not see enough of that never give in spirit from him. That said I think he could easily become a Derek Anderson type and seems to be a great pick up as a developmental prospect for a backup spot.