John Warrow’s High Praise For Beane & McDermott Regime

[Shaw66]

18 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Schematically, I think Daboll is on the right track in that regard. But as always, it comes down to personnel and execution. We will start getting an idea on the former soon enough and, if the personnel is there, the execution should soon follow as they get mores and more reps as a unit together. That may take a little more time.

Again, I don't Xs and Os, but I think you're right.  I like the comment from Beasley that sounded like he's getting to run the whole route tree from different positions - he likes the complexity of what the Bills are doing compared to the Cowboys.   Frankly, if Daboll hasn't learned enough from Belichick and Saban to do this, it will be disappointing.  

 

I think the personnel is there, in the sense that it's good enough so that they shouldn't get blown out.  There are just too many experienced offensive linemen on board for a coach not to be able to find a pay to put together at least decent run blocking and decent pass protection.   There's enough wideout talent to get people open and complete passes, if not with devastating effect, at least to be able to move the ball and score some points.   Shady and Gore SHOULD be able to do some damage, and I'm personally excited about Singletary.  I think he may very well have that special skillset that will let him have at least a few successful years.  Allen showed enough at QB last season to be able to build on it.   The talent just isn't that bad. 

 

The question is whether the coaching will be above average, or below.  

[K-9]

9 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Again, I don't Xs and Os, but I think you're right.  I like the comment from Beasley that sounded like he's getting to run the whole route tree from different positions - he likes the complexity of what the Bills are doing compared to the Cowboys.   Frankly, if Daboll hasn't learned enough from Belichick and Saban to do this, it will be disappointing.  

 

I think the personnel is there, in the sense that it's good enough so that they shouldn't get blown out.  There are just too many experienced offensive linemen on board for a coach not to be able to find a pay to put together at least decent run blocking and decent pass protection.   There's enough wideout talent to get people open and complete passes, if not with devastating effect, at least to be able to move the ball and score some points.   Shady and Gore SHOULD be able to do some damage, and I'm personally excited about Singletary.  I think he may very well have that special skillset that will let him have at least a few successful years.  Allen showed enough at QB last season to be able to build on it.   The talent just isn't that bad. 

 

The question is whether the coaching will be above average, or below.  

If McD can stay out of the way, I think Daboll and the O staff is up to the challenge. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 hours ago, Gugny said:

Is this officially the "Never Ending Thread 3.0 ?"

 

 

It's a zombie thread, limping on due to the obstinate pessimism of the likes of SoTier.

Edited June 25, 2019 by Joe in Winslow

[reddogblitz]

3 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

So you mean to tell me two of the most accomplished offensive minds loved Mahomes, but NOBODY could see it coming? 

 

 

Maybe it's just me, but if Andy Reid who already has Alex Smith calls me and wants to trade me a 1st round pick so he can draft  a QB, I tell him no and hang up. Then I draft the guy he wanted.

[Patrick Duffy]

6 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

It's a zombie thread, limping on due to the obstinate pessimism of the likes of SoTier.

At least he hasn't PM'ed you and @Gugny yet to meet up with him at some club called "The White Swallow". I simply refuse and wish not to take no parts in his sport drinking activities.

Edited June 25, 2019 by Patrick_Duffy

[K-9]

6 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

It's a zombie thread, limping on due to the obstinate pessimism of the likes of SoTier.

I don’t know, there’s been some decent give and take today. Not a whole lotta pissing and moaning today. Yet, anyway.

Edited June 25, 2019 by K-9

[Gugny]

6 minutes ago, Patrick_Duffy said:

At least he hasn't PM'ed you and @Gugny yet to meet up with him at some club called "The White Swallow". I simply refuse and wish not to take no parts in his sport drinking activities.

 

Is the White Swallow that show with Coolidge and Salami?

[Shaw66]

14 minutes ago, K-9 said:

If McD can stay out of the way, I think Daboll and the O staff is up to the challenge. 

I think McD would tell you it has to be about him, not Daboll.  If McD isn't the leader of the offense, over the long term your offensive is only as good as the OC, and as soon as the OC is identified by the league as a star, he's gone to a HC position.  McD has to install a system (or master a system someone else installs) for the team to have the long-term success he wants.  

 

Short term, of course, if Daboll does it without McD, I'm happy.   Just so long as someone does it.  

 

I don't have a lot of reason to have the confidence in Daboll and the others as you do.  I think it's purely wait and see.   As I said, I think there's enough talent across the lineup to put competitive (at least average) talent on the field.  

[K-9]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I think McD would tell you it has to be about him, not Daboll.  If McD isn't the leader of the offense, over the long term your offensive is only as good as the OC, and as soon as the OC is identified by the league as a star, he's gone to a HC position.  McD has to install a system (or master a system someone else installs) for the team to have the long-term success he wants.  

 

Short term, of course, if Daboll does it without McD, I'm happy.   Just so long as someone does it.  

 

I don't have a lot of reason to have the confidence in Daboll and the others as you do.  I think it's purely wait and see.   As I said, I think there's enough talent across the lineup to put competitive (at least average) talent on the field.  

If Daboll leaves for a HC gig because he’s successful here, it would be a nice problem to have. I’d hope that someone else on the O staff would be handed the reigns and pick up where he left off, which should be the case. I don’t share the same concern about McD micro managing a successful offense and I’d want him to not interfere. Besides, he has shown an ability to rectify things on defense when he’s stepped because he wasn’t happy with Frazier. I’d prefer he concentrate on that if he has to micro manage a side of the ball.

 

It’s all about McD, regardless though. He will have to own his W-L record like all head coaches. There’s just no escaping that reality. 

 

The reason I think Daboll has turned a corner and gives me confidence in him is that midstream last season he made a concerted effort to add more speed to the lineup and that forced DCs to alter that steady diet of cover 1 and cover 2 looks we’d seen all season. Deep safeties had to be more honest. So that gives me hope that at least Daboll can see a problem, figure it out, and attack it schematically. 

 

On paper, I agree we seem to have upgraded the talent level and it stands to reason that Daboll should be able to exploit it. But it’s just on paper at this point and I just have to see it all on the field before making proclamations. 

 

But I’m encouraged. 

[Shaw66]

7 minutes ago, K-9 said:

If Daboll leaves for a HC gig because he’s successful here, it would be a nice problem to have. I’d hope that someone else on the O staff would be handed the reigns and pick up where he left off, which should be the case. I don’t share the same concern about McD micro managing a successful offense and I’d want him to not interfere. Besides, he has shown an ability to rectify things on defense when he’s stepped because he wasn’t happy with Frazier. I’d prefer he concentrate on that if he has to micro manage a side of the ball.

 

It’s all about McD, regardless though. He will have to own his W-L record like all head coaches. There’s just no escaping that reality. 

 

The reason I think Daboll has turned a corner and gives me confidence in him is that midstream last season he made a concerted effort to add more speed to the lineup and that forced DCs to alter that steady diet of cover 1 and cover 2 looks we’d seen all season. Deep safeties had to be more honest. So that gives me hope that at least Daboll can see a problem, figure it out, and attack it schematically. 

 

On paper, I agree we seem to have upgraded the talent level and it stands to reason that Daboll should be able to exploit it. But it’s just on paper at this point and I just have to see it all on the field before making proclamations. 

 

But I’m encouraged. 

Thanks.   On McDermott, the objective is to be a master of the game like Belichick.  He didn't know a lot about offense when he became a HC.  He's still known as a defensive coach, but there's no doubt he's the master of the offense, too. That's where McD needs to go. 

 

As for Daboll, I guess I'd never tied the second half offensive strength back to the switch to more of a speed lineup, which was quite apparent when it happened.  That's a good observation.  I'm not suggesting that it happened one way or another, but it would be interesting to know whose idea it was to go the speed route.  Did McDermott tell Daboll he wanted more speed, did Daboll tell McD?  Did Daboll have trouble convincing McD?   Did someone else on the offense suggest it to Daboll?  Regardless of who gets the credit, that's one example of the offensive creativity that's necessary - look at what's working and what isn't, and make changes so it works better.   That kind of thinking is necessary both on a macro team identity level and on the game to game planning level, as well as the micro playcalling level.   

[GunnerBill]

51 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

 

Maybe it's just me, but if Andy Reid who already has Alex Smith calls me and wants to trade me a 1st round pick so he can draft  a QB, I tell him no and hang up. Then I draft the guy he wanted.

 

Almost certain he didn't tell the Bills who he wanted. 

[thebandit27]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Almost certain he didn't tell the Bills who he wanted. 

 

True...almost certain he didn't have to though.  You don't trade up 17 spots and give up a future 1st round pick for anything else (looking at you, New Orleans).

[K-9]

6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Thanks.   On McDermott, the objective is to be a master of the game like Belichick.  He didn't know a lot about offense when he became a HC.  He's still known as a defensive coach, but there's no doubt he's the master of the offense, too. That's where McD needs to go. 

 

As for Daboll, I guess I'd never tied the second half offensive strength back to the switch to more of a speed lineup, which was quite apparent when it happened.  That's a good observation.  I'm not suggesting that it happened one way or another, but it would be interesting to know whose idea it was to go the speed route.  Did McDermott tell Daboll he wanted more speed, did Daboll tell McD?  Did Daboll have trouble convincing McD?   Did someone else on the offense suggest it to Daboll?  Regardless of who gets the credit, that's one example of the offensive creativity that's necessary - look at what's working and what isn't, and make changes so it works better.   That kind of thinking is necessary both on a macro team identity level and on the game to game planning level, as well as the micro playcalling level.   

Belichick has been a football savant since he was began breaking down film for his dad at the Naval Academy when he was nine years old. You’re right; he’s a master of all facets of the game. Every. Single. One. I have no illusions that McD will ever bring the full realm of knowledge that Belichick does, but I want him to aspire to if that makes sense. I understand McD is a voracious reader, so he has that in common. Belichick’s son is a DB coach in NE*** so I suspect we will have a third generation football genius to contend with soon enough.

 

Regarding Daboll and that modification he made, I suspect it was an entirely collaborative decision process among him, offensive assistants, McD, and Beane. And I wouldn’t be surprised if Allen, Anderson, and Barkley were asked for their input on favorite plays, formations, etc. But I suspect it was Daboll that first noticed things on video, broke it down,  and initiated the process. That’s part of his job, after all.

[Shaw66]

23 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Almost certain he didn't tell the Bills who he wanted. 

This, but it's pretty good evidence that McD simply was not prepared to pull the trigger on a QB in 2017.   You know Reid wants to make a big move, so you know it's almost certainly for a QB.   Everyone knew that both Watson and Mahomes had talent (along with some questions), mid to high first round talent.   Same thing Allen had the following year - talent and questions.  Why did McD trade away from one opportunity and trade up into another?   It means he had the courage to make the call; he just wasn't prepared to make it in 2017.   Now, you can argue that he just misevaluated Watson and Mahomes but (1) that would have been pretty hard to do and (2) that would have been Whaley's call, in all likelihood.   Much more likely that McD wasn't ready to pull that trigger because he wanted a new GM there to make the decision - he didn't trust Whaley.  As I've speculated before, I think McD had kind of an option on Whaley - I think when he was hired, the Pegulas asked him about Whaley and McDermott said he wanted to work with him through the draft and then he'd tell them.  Then, probably sometime before the draft, he told the Pegulas that he wanted a new GM after the draft.  

Edited June 25, 2019 by Shaw66

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

True...almost certain he didn't have to though.  You don't trade up 17 spots and give up a future 1st round pick for anything else (looking at you, New Orleans).

 

Well they knew it was one of the two Quarterbacks almost certainly, yes. 

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Belichick has been a football savant since he was began breaking down film for his dad at the Naval Academy when he was nine years old. You’re right; he’s a master of all facets of the game. Every. Single. One. I have no illusions that McD will ever bring the full realm of knowledge that Belichick does, but I want him to aspire to if that makes sense. I understand McD is a voracious reader, so he has that in common. Belichick’s son is a DB coach in NE*** so I suspect we will have a third generation football genius to contend with soon enough.

 

Regarding Daboll and that modification he made, I suspect it was an entirely collaborative decision process among him, offensive assistants, McD, and Beane. And I wouldn’t be surprised if Allen, Anderson, and Barkley were asked for their input on favorite plays, formations, etc. But I suspect it was Daboll that first noticed things on video, broke it down,  and initiated the process. That’s part of his job, after all.

Belichick is a football savant, yes, but he's a football student, as well.   He spent his most important years in his coaching development strictly on defense.   He hadn't yet brought his football mind to bear on the offense until he became a head coach.  His study of the offense may have begun when he was young, but his mastery didn't arise until several years of success in New England.    Not arguing, just thinking through who he is and how he got there. 

 

I think you're right about how the decision was made.   Not unliike the decision about how to use Lorenzo Alexander in 2018.   The coaches went to him and asked him, and they worked out a better way to take advantage of his talents on the field.  

 

I hope it was Daboll who noticed.   It IS part of his job, a key part of his job, but that doesn't mean he thought of it.  For all we know Allen went to him and asked for more speed at wideout.   

 

Still, as I think you suggested earlier, at this point I don't care where offensive inspiration comes from this year, so long as it comes.  

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

This, but it's pretty good evidence that McD simply was not prepared to pull the trigger on a QB in 2017.   You know Reid wants to make a big move, so youknow it's almost certainly for a QB.   Everyone knew that both Watson and Mahomes had talent (along with some questions), mid to high first round talent.   Same thing Allen had the following - talent and questions.  Why did McD trade away from one opportunity and trade up into another?   It means he had the courage to make the call; he just wasn't prepared to make it in 2017.   Now, you can argue that he just misevaluated Watson and Mahomes but (1) that would have been pretty hard to do and (2) that would have been Whaley's call, in all likelihood.   Much more likely that McD told Whaley he wasn't ready to pull that trigger. 

 

It wasn't Whaley's call. It was Beane's. Brandon Beane's hand was on the tiller from Carolina. Carolina - a place where they had a franchise Quarterback in place and were not in the market for another. Hence very likely the Assistant GM had put little to no time into getting under the skin of Mahomes and Watson. Therefore his advice to McDermott was "wait until I am there.... next year is a good class we will get our guy then." 

 

I can't prove it. Likely will never be able to because the Bills covered their tracks. But what we do know is that Tre White, Dion Dawkins and Zay Jones had all been into the Panthers on visits. Tre is the only first rounder under this regime that the Bills didn't have in. I am utterly convinced Brandon Beane ran that draft from Carolina. That's why the other guy the Bills interviewed was Brian Gaine a guy they eneded up hiring in a senior post. That interview was a sham. It was a guy Beane had already tapped up for a key role doing the Bills a solid. 

 

The 2017 draft will never have Brandon Beane's name next to it. But it does have his fingerprints all over it.

 

He wasn't going to risk his shot at being an NFL GM on QBs he had not evaluated. 

[K-9]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Belichick is a football savant, yes, but he's a football student, as well.   He spent his most important years in his coaching development strictly on defense.   He hadn't yet brought his football mind to bear on the offense until he became a head coach.  His study of the offense may have begun when he was young, but his mastery didn't arise until several years of success in New England.    Not arguing, just thinking through who he is and how he got there. 

 

I think you're right about how the decision was made.   Not unliike the decision about how to use Lorenzo Alexander in 2018.   The coaches went to him and asked him, and they worked out a better way to take advantage of his talents on the field.  

 

I hope it was Daboll who noticed.   It IS part of his job, a key part of his job, but that doesn't mean he thought of it.  For all we know Allen went to him and asked for more speed at wideout.   

 

Still, as I think you suggested earlier, at this point I don't care where offensive inspiration comes from this year, so long as it comes.  

Agree entirely about Belichick. He may be the biggest student of the game as well as it’s best coaching practitioner. I see the two going hand in hand. He’s always evolving, always learning and applying knowledge. He probably attends more coaching clinics than anybody, too. He’s got the consummate learning spirit and, like I said, I hope that McD’s reported voraciousness as a reader is a sign that he enjoys learning as well.

 

I’m glad you mentioned Allen’s possible role in the offensive change. Given the timing of it, it makes sense. Allen, McD, and Daboll were tethered after Allen got injured in week six. Four weeks later, we see Foster return and McKenzie inserted and safeties starting to play a bit more honestly. I can imagine Allen soaking up all sorts of film study with Daboll and being asked his thoughts on this and that. Wouldn’t surprise me at all to learn he had input. And I take that as a very good sign.

[dave mcbride]

16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It wasn't Whaley's call. It was Beane's. Brandon Beane's hand was on the tiller from Carolina. Carolina - a place where they had a franchise Quarterback in place and were not in the market for another. Hence very likely the Assistant GM had put little to no time into getting under the skin of Mahomes and Watson. Therefore his advice to McDermott was "wait until I am there.... next year is a good class we will get our guy then." 

 

I can't prove it. Likely will never be able to because the Bills covered their tracks. But what we do know is that Tre White, Dion Dawkins and Zay Jones had all been into the Panthers on visits. Tre is the only first rounder under this regime that the Bills didn't have in. I am utterly convinced Brandon Beane ran that draft from Carolina. That's why the other guy the Bills interviewed was Brian Gaine a guy they eneded up hiring in a senior post. That interview was a sham. It was a guy Beane had already tapped up for a key role doing the Bills a solid. 

 

The 2017 draft will never have Brandon Beane's name next to it. But it does have his fingerprints all over it.

 

He wasn't going to risk his shot at being an NFL GM on QBs he had not evaluated. 

I think this is probably correct. 

[Shaw66]

13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It wasn't Whaley's call. It was Beane's. Brandon Beane's hand was on the tiller from Carolina. Carolina - a place where they had a franchise Quarterback in place and were not in the market for another. Hence very likely the Assistant GM had put little to no time into getting under the skin of Mahomes and Watson. Therefore his advice to McDermott was "wait until I am there.... next year is a good class we will get our guy then." 

 

I can't prove it. Likely will never be able to because the Bills covered their tracks. But what we do know is that Tre White, Dion Dawkins and Zay Jones had all been into the Panthers on visits. Tre is the only first rounder under this regime that the Bills didn't have in. I am utterly convinced Brandon Beane ran that draft from Carolina. That's why the other guy the Bills interviewed was Brian Gaine a guy they eneded up hiring in a senior post. That interview was a sham. It was a guy Beane had already tapped up for a key role doing the Bills a solid. 

 

The 2017 draft will never have Brandon Beane's name next to it. But it does have his fingerprints all over it.

 

He wasn't going to risk his shot at being an NFL GM on QBs he had not evaluated. 

Well, I've never bought this theory about Beane calling any shots on the Bills 2017 draft.   I just don't think the Pegulas would risk tampering claims, or whatever the charge would have been.  And if you believe the way the Beane hire was reported, when the Bills DID approach Beane, McD was part of a sales pitch that suggests that Beane didn't have moving to Buffalo as his priority.   McD had to convince him to take a shot.  So, if he was on the fence AFTER the draft, he certainly wouldn't have been feeding draft information to the Bills before the draft.  

 

But, the timing of it all IS intriguing, so if when the history is written ten years from now it comes out that Beane was in on the 2017 draft, well, that will be very interesting. 

10 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Allen, McD, and Daboll were tethered after Allen got injured in week six. Four weeks later, we see Foster return and McKenzie inserted and safeties starting to play a bit more honestly. I can imagine Allen soaking up all sorts of film study with Daboll and being asked his thoughts on this and that. Wouldn’t surprise me at all to learn he had input. 

And that, my friend, describes the ideal way for those changes to have come to pass - the three of them talking about what they can do and the three of coming up with this.  If that happened, and if it continues to happen, that's simply ideal.