John Warrow’s High Praise For Beane & McDermott Regime

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

??

 

KC’s 2017 offense was 4th in offensive DVOA, 6th in points, and 5th in yards. You can’t cherry pick one game — and the Bills game no less (homer goggles alert!) — and conflate it with an entire season. They had a near-elite offense overall that year.

 

Sixth in scoring is not that near to elite...........elite is top 2.  

 

Was the Bills 2016 offense near-elite?   Not even I make that argument.

 

When Rex was fired in 2016 the Bills offense was 7th in the NFL in scoring and had committed the fewest turnovers by any team thru that point in a season since the merger and was coming off a team record offensive yardage day against Miami.

 

But the narrative in this thread is that McDermott didn't inherit much..........which is 100% false..........he inherited the best offense the Bills had put on the field since their second SB season.

 

He chose to break it up and play Jauron Ball with Dennison.

 

[oldmanfan]

19 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Sixth in scoring is not that near to elite...........elite is top 2.  

 

Was the Bills 2016 offense near-elite?   Not even I make that argument.

 

When Rex was fired in 2016 the Bills offense was 7th in the NFL in scoring and had committed the fewest turnovers by any team thru that point in a season since the merger and was coming off a team record offensive yardage day against Miami.

 

But the narrative in this thread is that McDermott didn't inherit much..........which is 100% false..........he inherited the best offense the Bills had put on the field since their second SB season.

 

He chose to break it up and play Jauron Ball with Dennison.

 

And got them to the playoffs for the first time in17 years.  

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, Chemical said:

If Dee Ford doesn’t go Offside and Mahomes wins the super bowl are these idiots saying “He has a Super Bowl caliber supporting cast! The Bills don’t win the super bowl. He would not be the same player if we drafted him. He would not have won the super bowl!”

 

 

One of the more impressive things with Mahomes was that he had the worst defense in football and yet he didn't let the pressure of having to outscore opponents weigh on him.

 

I think playing that style helps build late game clutch ability in players..............and its one of the reasons that you didn't see much of it in Marty Ball or Jauron Ball type QB's...........when the pressure to push the ball downfield only comes at the end of games its not comfortable.

 

Very interested to see how Allen progresses as a late game QB...........he was 0-2 on last minute drive to tie/win opportunities this past year.

 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, K-9 said:

Mahomes is obviously good enough to win the SB now, but he can't do it by himself. Not sure what your point is. He may not have a SB caliber supporting cast just yet, especially on defense, but there were three Pro Bowlers (Hill, Kelce, Hunt) at skill positions to pitch to and Andy Reid who knows how to scheme guys open when he showed up. 

 

If you really, honestly think Mahomes would have won the SB or pitched 50 TD passes with a stable of Deonte Thompson, Zay Jones, Charles Clay, and Shady with Rick Dennison as the architect, what can I say? Other than I question your ability to be judging anyone's idiocy around here. 

 

1. Mahomes took the Patriots to OT playing opposite the worst defense in the NFL.

 

2. And yeah the choices that McBeane made at WR..........not retaining Watkins, Woods and Goodwin and drafting Zay and trading for KB and Matthews were atrocious............but so was trading the Mahomes pick.

 

3. And btw.........what you CAN say is that Dennison won a SB as an OC.

 

Excuse it all you want but it happens.     Other great aspects of a team(defense, QB) can trump middling coaching. 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

But the narrative in this thread is that McDermott didn't inherit much..........which is 100% false..........he inherited the best offense the Bills had put on the field since their second SB season.

 

He chose to break it up and play Jauron Ball with Dennison.

 

A couple of things:

 

First, as rancorous as the discussion as been in this thread, several people are posting here who know a lot of football, and the discussion, despite all the sniping, has been pretty interesting.  Thanks to all.

 

I think what I've quoted here goes to back to the fundamental point that's been kicked around here:  What choices did the new coach and the new GM have after first Rex then Whaley were booted?   Did they have only one choice or more than one?   Did they make the right choice?

 

I think you're correct that the Bills had talent to work with when the new guys started, and I think some new leadership would have built from what they had.  Every new leader would have made a new QB a priority.  Some would have gone after the best available first round guy in 2017, some would have been more cautious, as McDermott was with a lame duck GM.  (I have to believe that McD knew he was getting a new GM.   It had to be part of the discussion when he was hired - how much control did he have, etc.  Given that Whaley was gone the day after the draft, it seems obvious that the decision about Whaley, at least tentatively, had been made a few months earlier.  I suppose McD could have gone to the Pegulas after being on board for a month or two and said that he loved Whaley and wanted to keep him, but unless that had happened, Whaley's ticket out of town had already been punched.)   So knowing he was getting a new GM, seeing a good crop of QBs coming up in the 2018 draft, and not being so sure about either Mahomes or Watson, McD chose to wait.  

 

As for whether to do a total rebuild, different coaches would have decided different things.   I think that, given his overriding philosophy about the kind of players he wanted, McD probably always was likely to rebuild.   If the Pegulas were smart about it, and I'd think they were, after how poorly they'd vetted Rex, they would have asked McD that question.   McD's answer clearly would have been "I need a team full of guys who have the attitude, the mindset, the character I think is essential.  I will use as much of the first year here to figure out how many of the guys we currently have fit that mold.  If there are a lot, great.  My guess is there aren't many, and I'll want to rebuild.   I'll need a GM with the same attitude."

 

So once the Pegulas decided that McD was their guy, the die was cast - the Bills were rebuilding.  Whether someone else w.  ould have built from what the Bills had is relevant only to a discussion of whether the Pegulas picked the right coach.    And that discussion, in my opinion, is pretty pointless, because to have that discussion today we have to ascribe TWO YEARS of front office and coaching decisions to the new regime AND make so many assumptions it's useless.   You have to start with drafting Mahomes or Watson, keeping some combination of Watkins, Woods, Glenn, Dareus and several lesser names, stripping out White, maybe Power and Hyde, Edmunds and a couple of others.  Then you have to make assumptions about how the new QB would have developed with an imaginary coach and a lesser collection of skill players around him.   There are simply too any scenarios to make almost any scenario worth talking about. 

 

With perhaps one exception:  I'd like to see the alternate universe where Anthony Lynn got the job and drafted either Mahomes or Watson.  Lynn had a head start on McD and everyone else, and maybe Lynn would have made something click with Watkins and Woods.   But even the Lynn discussion becomes pretty pointless, because what would have happened on the other side of the ball is poor guess work. 

 

So go back to the one scenario we do know:  McD is hired as head coach.   You say "he chose to play Jauron ball with Dennison."   Starting from the assumptions that he's going to rebuild, he doesn't have a QB, he knows Watkins is not a team player and will  be leaving, he has a great running back and he thinks he can have a pretty good defense if he gets a couple of safeties, playing Jauron ball, as you say, was exactly the right decision - maybe not for the long term, but for the short-term while you're waiting to assemble a whole new offense from pieces you don't have yet.   And, lo and behold, playing Jauron ball got his team to the playoffs.   That was a really, really good decision.   

 

I come back to the same place I've been for months.  McD hasn't proved anything yet, because it's all about winning and he hasn't demonstrated that he can win.   But I can see what he's been doing and it makes sense to me, not that it's the only way someone might have proceeded with the hand he was dealt, but it was one way to proceed.  And it looks like he's making process at what he intended to do, so the fact that he hasn't been a big winner yet, and might not even be a big winner in 2019, doesn't trouble me.   Absent a 2019 implosion, 2020 is the year that matters.  

[K-9]

36 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

1. Mahomes took the Patriots to OT playing opposite the worst defense in the NFL.

 

2. And yeah the choices that McBeane made at WR..........not retaining Watkins, Woods and Goodwin and drafting Zay and trading for KB and Matthews were atrocious............but so was trading the Mahomes pick.

 

3. And btw.........what you CAN say is that Dennison won a SB as an OC.

 

Excuse it all you want but it happens.     Other great aspects of a team(defense, QB) can trump middling coaching. 

There’s a difference between excusing a decision and making up complete fantasies to support criticism of them. 

 

But it’s a safe space to occupy. I think I’ll try it:

 

If we had Mahomes, we would have won the Super Bowl by now! 

 

Edit: forgot to add how specious it is to say Dennison won a SB as an OC. But I’ll give him credit for being smart enough to stay out of Peyton Manning’s way. 

Edited June 23, 2019 by K-9

[SoTier]

2 hours ago, K-9 said:

Mahomes is obviously good enough to win the SB now, but he can't do it by himself. Not sure what your point is. He may not have a SB caliber supporting cast just yet, especially on defense, but there were three Pro Bowlers (Hill, Kelce, Hunt) at skill positions to pitch to and Andy Reid who knows how to scheme guys open when he showed up. 

 

If you really, honestly think Mahomes would have won the SB or pitched 50 TD passes with a stable of Deonte Thompson, Zay Jones, Charles Clay, and Shady with Rick Dennison as the architect, what can I say? Other than I question your ability to be judging anyone's idiocy around here. 

 

Bado didn't write that at all.  I was briefly tempted to suggest that you try rereading what he wrote, this time for comprehension of the entire thought, not just to decipher the individual words ... but we both know deliberately misunderstanding  what was written is one of your favorite tactics for attacking posters you dislike.

 

Put this in your pipe and smoke it: the same people responsible for the substandard offenses the Bills fielded in 2017 and 2018 are also responsible for the 2019 offense.  If it doesn't matter whether or not the Bills goofed in passing on Mahomes because he wouldn't have been nearly as good on the Bills as he was with the Chiefs, what chance does Josh Allen, who has to improve in his game a whole lot to just to become a decent NFL QB, have of becoming one any time in the near future?

 

[K-9]

4 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Bado didn't write that at all.  I was briefly tempted to suggest that you try rereading what he wrote, this time for comprehension of the entire thought, not just to decipher the individual words ... but we both know deliberately misunderstanding  what was written is one of your favorite tactics for attacking posters you dislike.

 

Put this in your pipe and smoke it: the same people responsible for the substandard offenses the Bills fielded in 2017 and 2018 are also responsible for the 2019 offense.  If it doesn't matter whether or not the Bills goofed in passing on Mahomes because he wouldn't have been nearly as good on the Bills as he was with the Chiefs, what chance does Josh Allen, who has to improve in his game a whole lot to just to become a decent NFL QB, have of becoming one any time in the near future?

 

That’s nice, but I was quoting Chemical. 

 

What was that about reading comprehension?

 

As for the rest of it, who said it doesn’t matter that they passed on Mahomes. Everything matters, including their deliberate strategy to go in an entirely different direction. 

 

Attacking posters I disagree with? That’s rich coming from you. 

Edited June 23, 2019 by K-9

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

And got them to the playoffs for the first time in17 years.  

 

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every 20 years or so.

4 minutes ago, K-9 said:

That’s nice, but I was quoting chemical. 

 

Mea culpa.

[K-9]

4 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every 20 years or so.

 

Mea culpa.

No worries. Happens to everyone around here.

[oldmanfan]

44 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Bado didn't write that at all.  I was briefly tempted to suggest that you try rereading what he wrote, this time for comprehension of the entire thought, not just to decipher the individual words ... but we both know deliberately misunderstanding  what was written is one of your favorite tactics for attacking posters you dislike.

 

Put this in your pipe and smoke it: the same people responsible for the substandard offenses the Bills fielded in 2017 and 2018 are also responsible for the 2019 offense.  If it doesn't matter whether or not the Bills goofed in passing on Mahomes because he wouldn't have been nearly as good on the Bills as he was with the Chiefs, what chance does Josh Allen, who has to improve in his game a whole lot to just to become a decent NFL QB, have of becoming one any time in the near future?

 

Denison was OC in 17.  Daboll last year and this coming year.  The QBs in 17 vs. 18/19 are different.  New O line coach this year vs. the last two.  And so on.  What are you talking about?

Edited June 23, 2019 by oldmanfan

[GunnerBill]

54 minutes ago, K-9 said:

There’s a difference between excusing a decision and making up complete fantasies to support criticism of them. 

 

But it’s a safe space to occupy. I think I’ll try it:

 

If we had Mahomes, we would have won the Super Bowl by now! 

 

Edit: forgot to add how specious it is to say Dennison won a SB as an OC. But I’ll give him credit for being smart enough to stay out of Peyton Manning’s way. 

 

Actually Manning was the worst starting QB in the NFL the year the Broncos won the Superbowl. 

[Patrick Duffy]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Actually Manning was the worst starting QB in the NFL the year the Broncos won the Superbowl. 

Wasn't that the year he had the shoulder problem or whatever injury it was? May have been neck, can't quite remember.....

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Patrick_Duffy said:

Wasn't that the year he had the shoulder problem or whatever injury it was? May have been neck, can't quite remember.....

 

He had everything. His body had broken down totally about week 13 the previous year. They were playing a hide the Quarterback offense their SB year. That said having Manning out there is still an advantage because he was still checking them in and out of the right plays. 

[oldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He had everything. His body had broken down totally about week 13 the previous year. They were playing a hide the Quarterback offense their SB year. That said having Manning out there is still an advantage because he was still checking them in and out of the right plays. 

Wasn't that also the year their defense played lights out?

[HappyDays]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

That said having Manning out there is still an advantage because he was still checking them in and out of the right plays. 

 

On that point, I don't understand why every team with a young QB isn't doing what McVay does. Until the league prohibits it, every coach in the league should be in their young QB's ear before the snap and telling them what to do.

[Shaw66]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

On that point, I don't understand why every team with a young QB isn't doing what McVay does. Until the league prohibits it, every coach in the league should be in their young QB's ear before the snap and telling them what to do.

Like everything else, teams adjust.  Defenses last season were disguising their defenses and shifting out when the two-way radio went silent.  

[Augie]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He had everything. His body had broken down totally about week 13 the previous year. They were playing a hide the Quarterback offense their SB year. That said having Manning out there is still an advantage because he was still checking them in and out of the right plays. 

 

The body was completely shot, but so much of the game is mental he was able to get by. Barely. 

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

1. Mahomes took the Patriots to OT playing opposite the worst defense in the NFL.

 

2. And yeah the choices that McBeane made at WR..........not retaining Watkins, Woods and Goodwin and drafting Zay and trading for KB and Matthews were atrocious............but so was trading the Mahomes pick.

 

3. And btw.........what you CAN say is that Dennison won a SB as an OC.

 

Excuse it all you want but it happens.     Other great aspects of a team(defense, QB) can trump middling coaching. 

What’s with the hyperbole? They were bad but not the worst. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Sixth in scoring is not that near to elite...........elite is top 2.  

 

Was the Bills 2016 offense near-elite?   Not even I make that argument.

 

When Rex was fired in 2016 the Bills offense was 7th in the NFL in scoring and had committed the fewest turnovers by any team thru that point in a season since the merger and was coming off a team record offensive yardage day against Miami.

 

But the narrative in this thread is that McDermott didn't inherit much..........which is 100% false..........he inherited the best offense the Bills had put on the field since their second SB season.

 

He chose to break it up and play Jauron Ball with Dennison.

 

Scoring? Focus on DVOA. Fourth. 

[Rico]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I wouldn't say it don't mean a thing.    You didn't enjoy the early 1990's as a Bills fan?  Not a fan of Jimbo?

 

 

Absolutely loved it, loved them, and loved Jimbo... but the bottom line is they didn't get the job done.