John Warrow’s High Praise For Beane & McDermott Regime

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Rex got fired for the same reason...............his insistence on forcing his useless defense on a proven top 5 defensive unit certainly cost them at least 2 wins per season.........no question that was a team that should have won 11 or 12 games with that talent(as the similarly unspectacularly QB'd Chiefs did). 

 

When McD went to camp in 2017 I said then he STILL had a potential 10 win team.

 

That's why the fact that 2 years in they are 15-17 is not only disappointing but really the opposite of the synergy that the Lynn hiring created in LA.   

 

That doesn't mean McD can't turn it around but at this point he and Lynn are what their records say they are.

 

So I think the 2015 roster should have been 10 wins minimum. 12 wins would not have been a crazy expectation with the talent we had. 

 

I felt differently about 2016. I wanted Rex fired from halfway through his first year but have always said I thought his staff did a better job year 2 even if the win total didn't demonstrate that. The 2016 roster to my mind was more of a 9-7 or 8-8 group. 

 

I think when you then look at what McDermott had 9-7 in 2017 felt about right. That was my pre-season prediction (I had 9-7 but missing the playoffs). I also thought 5 or 6 wins last year. That to me was what that team was. And that remains my question with McDermott. Is he a guy (they exist I think Jason Garrett is one) who wins exactly as many games as he should. Or is he a guy who can impact that win total in a positive manner? To me he won fewer games than Lynn last year because he had less good players. I know that was partly his choice but that is what I see. 

[Saxum]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

4.  The Buffalo Bills of 2019 have a HC going into his third year and GM going into his second year.  Despite all attempts to link them to past regimes, or the owners to past ownership, such attempts are bogus and without any logic.  They are carrying out their plan.  The first year of the plan focused on the D and starting to get the guys Coach McD wanted in place and moving out the guys he didn't.  And they made the playoffs:

 

Corrected. Beane was not involved first year.

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

Corrected. Beane was not involved first year.

Draft no.  Season yes.

55 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yes and 10 losses.......and you know what McD's 17 losses in two years have in common:  they were losses! 

 

I'm sorry for trying to explain the nature of McD's scheduling good fortune in 2017........I will try to keep my responses to your takes as doddering as possible so we are on the same debate wavelength.

 

 

 

 

So now we have to take scheduling into consideration?  How many Mahomes wins were against bad teams?

 

And you want to throw the doddering insult around, either grow up or name the place.

[SoTier]

On 6/21/2019 at 10:28 AM, Shaw66 said:

More fiction.  You cite a few exceptions and expect us to belive they represent the reality of how football teams are run.  You say its pretty common for people to hire their relatives.   There are probably 5000 people employed by NFL teams, probably 20,000 different people over the last 30 years.  You cite four or five examples over that period.  How does four or five out of 20,000 translate to "pretty common"?  

 

One perfect example:  you ask us to believe that Ralph Wilson had a BILLION DOLLARS invested in a football team so he could give his daughter job?  Sure thing.  You think Ralph couldn't find a less expensive way to get his daughter a job? 

 

Of course management of NFL teams make some bad decisions.  Everyone makes bad decisions; I'm making one right now wasting time responding to you.  The fact that you can point to bad decisions does NOT demonstrate that NFL teams are generally managed badly.  They aren't.  In a business where success is measured by wins and losses, less than a quarter of the teams can be successful; lack of success does not necessarily establish bad management.   You could have 32 perfectly managed teams and you'd still only have a few that win more than 10 games.  

 

You're the one spinning the fiction that the NFL is  meritocracy simply because coaches get fired, usually for either not winning or not winning enough.  The reality is that "who you know" is not only commonplace, but pedigree -- who your father is/was -- counts significantly too.  Tim Graham wrote an article on this very subject for the Buffalo News in September, 2017: Self Made Men.

 

Moreover, all I did was point out some examples off the top of my head of relatives of owners, execs, coaches getting jobs because of their familial connections.  I didn't comment on whether they were good hires or not.  Your own defensiveness about my contradicting your claim of the NFL being a great "meritocracy" led you to assume otherwise.

 

 

[Augie]

3 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Draft no.  Season yes.

So now we have to take scheduling into consideration?  How many Mahomes wins were against bad teams?

 

And you want to throw the doddering insult around, either grow up or name the place.

 

He’s just that way, I don’t think growing up is a possibility. I believe I was told I’m old and frail, and possibly pathetic. Early morning PM’s are the best revelation of a person’s character, sometimes. Whatever, I feel sorry for  him for that. Sad, really. 

 

Edit: I also have “a wounded, helpless persona”.  He decided I was “too thin-skinned to throw down with” him here, so he blocked me. I was fine. Some people just don’t know how to play well with others. Have your football opinions, and don’t be a jerk. Simple! The bar is pretty low. If not being a jerk makes me helpless, somebody is confused.  But I guess that’s a grown up thing. 

 

 

.

.

 

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Edited June 23, 2019 by Augie

[BADOLBILZ]

21 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So I think the 2015 roster should have been 10 wins minimum. 12 wins would not have been a crazy expectation with the talent we had. 

 

I felt differently about 2016. I wanted Rex fired from halfway through his first year but have always said I thought his staff did a better job year 2 even if the win total didn't demonstrate that. The 2016 roster to my mind was more of a 9-7 or 8-8 group. 

 

I think when you then look at what McDermott had 9-7 in 2017 felt about right. That was my pre-season prediction (I had 9-7 but missing the playoffs). I also thought 5 or 6 wins last year. That to me was what that team was. And that remains my question with McDermott. Is he a guy (they exist I think Jason Garrett is one) who wins exactly as many games as he should. Or is he a guy who can impact that win total in a positive manner? To me he won fewer games than Lynn last year because he had less good players. I know that was partly his choice but that is what I see. 

 

 

We are in agreement that the 2017 team was talented enough to win 9 games.........it wasn't a special accomplishment to get that out of them.

 

On highlighted #2...........I mostly agree.......but Anthony Lynn wasn't a tear down guy.........he didn't get to hand pick his GM like McD and yet he took what he received and turned it into a vastly better team pretty quickly.     Even in 2017 they could have won 11-12 games with even decent field goal kicking.    I'm not saying he's a top 5 HC but he's proven legit..........McD is still suspect.

[K-9]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Ok so I will give you that the NFL's 6th highest scoring offense in 2017 was talented if you give me that the NFL's 7th highest scoring offense in 2016(that McDermott inherited) was talented.

 

See the cop-out here is that Mahomes would have "inevitably" been plugged into a bad offensive group.  

 

McDermott made choices...........not to retain Woods and Goodwin and Watkins and he made bad choices replacing them..........so if anything saying that Mahomes wouldn't have been in a good situation is an indictment on McDermott and Beane.........not an excuse.

 

Per the bold, you’re confusing me with people who don’t think choices, some poor, were made by McBeane. I just choose to accept them and move on rather than debate them. I find it unproductive at best. 

 

Of COURSE  Mahomes wouldn’t have come into as good an offensive situation as we had in ‘16. That’s directly related to the point about him not having the same success here. And I don’t think I need to go any further than than saying Dennison vs. Reid and not having three Pro Bowl talents at the skill positions to surround him. Maybe Sammy could have been that, maybe Woods if he had stayed. Key word is “maybe.” We can never know which is why it’s absurd to state it like it’s a fact. 

 

No, McD didn’t inherit a total mess and had he just stood pat, that offense would have been better in ‘17, although Dennison wasn’t inspiring, Tailor was maxed out, Sammy wasn’t 100%, Clay was hobbling, Shady was starting his decline, and  Woods was leaving anyway. But he didn’t inherit a first ballot Hall of Fame quarterback  like Lynn did, either. 

 

Finally, he was hired to implement HIS vision, with his coaches, his players, and his philosophies. I’ll wait to see how it ends up before the final chapter is written. It’s far from over at this point.

 

Please don’t act like it is. 

 

I

 

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Actually that Chiefs team was in a tailspin......they were in the midst of losing 6 of 7 games.........it looked like a more impressive win until the lowly Jets beat the Chiefs the following week.

 

The Jets lost 9 of 11 to finish the 2017 season......the two wins were the blowout of McDermott's Bills on TNF and that Chiefs win...........so suffice to say the Bills and Chiefs weren't playing good football at the time they played the Jets.

 

The Chiefs win was part of a stretch of great fortune........the far-too-close home win against the 4-12 Colts and 2 games against tanking Dolphins teams....... that allowed the Bills to nose back to 9-7.

 

You are the most miserable person in this forum. 

3 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

The four wins you mention have one thing in common:  they were wins.  And led the team to the playoffs.

 

Should we break down Reid and Mahomes wins based on quality of competition now?

He is incapable of giving McDermott credit for anything. This renders honest debate impossible. 

[K-9]

3 hours ago, Augie said:

 

Some people can admit shortcomings while remaining optimistic. Some are 99% negative bashing everything they can think of, but then say they are optimistic and/or hopeful. For some it’s very real, but for some it just seems to be to cover their bases. 

 

Balance is key, in my mind. Don’t fall blindly to one side or the other. 

 

.

Again, it’s a complete waste of time engaging intractable viewpoints in an honest give and take. 

3 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Yes he did.  They got 6 wins last year.  They got 9 the year before and made the playoffs.  Do you realize that?

 

So now it's point differential that counts in your world?  Ok.

Waste of time. He will split hairs to the quantum level to argue a point. 

[Happy]

5 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

When the Bills were beating KC in their own building in 2017...........with the Chiefs looking utterly punchless offensively despite having Tyreek Hill,  Travis Kelce and Kareem Hunt in the lineup was ANYONE'S thought............"if only this Chiefs team had a second year QB they'd be the most dynamic offense in football!"

 

Patrick Mahomes is a great football player.   Period.

 

It's amazing the lengths people go to defend McBeane and then in the same breath backhand them with the "well the situation McBeane was creating in Buffalo was so bad with the hirings and bad WR choices and OL choices that Mahomes would not have been able to succeed".

 

At what point will the Bills be good enough to support a QB who has proven he can throw 50 TD passes?

 

 

Do tell us what kind of player Mahomes would have been in Buffalo..............put it out there...........what would have happened?

 

 

 

He wouldn't have won offensive player of the year award, nor would he have won MVP,  nor would he have thrown for 50 TD passes.  And what is your take on what Mahomes would have been in Buffalo?

[BADOLBILZ]

41 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

He wouldn't have won offensive player of the year award, nor would he have won MVP,  nor would he have thrown for 50 TD passes.  And what is your take on what Mahomes would have been in Buffalo?

 

 

I guess you are afraid to say but I'm not.

 

I think he would have broken the franchise record for TD passes in a single season last year..........probably 35...........so tied for second most in the NFL to Andrew Luck(39) instead of being first.

 

And I think he would still be the most valued player in the NFL.

 

As @Zerovoltz said there is no combo of players that his team would trade him for.....and that would still be the same. 

 

He's just a Marino/Favre/Rodgers level passer of the football.    Rarely see two of those at about the same age in the NFL at the same time but hopefully Allen joins him.

 

My guess is Allen's ceiling is more of a cross between Big Ben and Elway.   He doesn't have the pitch variety of Mahomes....that will always allow Mahomes to stack passing stats even if he doesn't have elite targets.

 

 But Allen hasn't gotten far off of his floor as a passer yet....................Mahomes already had a season that was so good that it's hard to imagine him NOT becoming a HOF'er.   Dude is amazing.

 

As I've said many times.........the hope as a Bills fans should be that Allen ends up on better teams and wins more like the Kelly/Marino dynamic.

Edited June 23, 2019 by BADOLBILZ

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

You're the one spinning the fiction that the NFL is  meritocracy simply because coaches get fired, usually for either not winning or not winning enough.  The reality is that "who you know" is not only commonplace, but pedigree -- who your father is/was -- counts significantly too.  Tim Graham wrote an article on this very subject for the Buffalo News in September, 2017: Self Made Men.

 

Moreover, all I did was point out some examples off the top of my head of relatives of owners, execs, coaches getting jobs because of their familial connections.  I didn't comment on whether they were good hires or not.  Your own defensiveness about my contradicting your claim of the NFL being a great "meritocracy" led you to assume otherwise.

 

 

Tim Graham's article is about how guys get into the game on the coaching/management game.    Not how they get to the top.  Getting to the top is purely a meritocracy.  Either your reading comprehension is weak or you're intentionally misleading people. 

22 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I guess you are afraid to say but I'm not.

 

I think he would have broken the franchise record for TD passes in a single season last year..........probably 35...........so tied for second most in the NFL to Andrew Luck(39) instead of being first.

 

And I think he would still be the most valued player in the NFL.

 

As @Zerovoltz said there is no combo of players that his team would trade him for.....and that would still be the same. 

 

He's just a Marino/Favre/Rodgers level passer of the football.    Rarely see two of those at about the same age in the NFL at the same time but hopefully Allen joins him.

 

My guess is Allen's ceiling is more of a cross between Big Ben and Elway.   He doesn't have the pitch variety of Mahomes....that will always allow Mahomes to stack passing stats even if he doesn't have elite targets.

 

 But Allen hasn't gotten far off of his floor as a passer yet....................Mahomes already had a season that was so good that it's hard to imagine him NOT becoming a HOF'er.   Dude is amazing.

 

As I've said many times.........the hope as a Bills fans should be that Allen ends up on better teams and wins more like the Kelly/Marino dynamic.

At least based on what we've seen, I think yours is an accurate assessment of Mahomes.   Maybe the league will catch up with him.   

 

However, I think if Allen had had a year on the bench at KC and then had become the starter in 2018, HE would have been the MVP.   Great coaching, great surrounding cast, plus Allen's talent.  

[K-9]

18 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

I think he would have broken the franchise record for TD passes in a single season last year..........probably 35...........so tied for second most in the NFL to Andrew Luck(39) instead of being first.

Throwing to the same stable of receivers you’ve regularly trashed? With the same RB you’ve been mocking forever? With Rick Dennison running the offense?

 

[Happy]

15 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I guess you are afraid to say but I'm not.

 

I think he would have broken the franchise record for TD passes in a single season last year..........probably 35...........so tied for second most in the NFL to Andrew Luck(39) instead of being first.

 

And I think he would still be the most valued player in the NFL.

 

As @Zerovoltz said there is no combo of players that his team would trade him for.....and that would still be the same. 

 

He's just a Marino/Favre/Rodgers level passer of the football.    Rarely see two of those at about the same age in the NFL at the same time but hopefully Allen joins him.

 

My guess is Allen's ceiling is more of a cross between Big Ben and Elway.   He doesn't have the pitch variety of Mahomes....that will always allow Mahomes to stack passing stats even if he doesn't have elite targets.

 

 But Allen hasn't gotten far off of his floor as a passer yet....................Mahomes already had a season that was so good that it's hard to imagine him NOT becoming a HOF'er.   Dude is amazing.

 

As I've said many times.........the hope as a Bills fans should be that Allen ends up on better teams and wins more like the Kelly/Marino dynamic.

 

I honestly don't know what type of player Mahomes would have been for the Bills and neither do you for certain, but I am confident that he wouldn't have been what he was in KC last year with the OL and WR corps Buffalo had in 2018.  Look, Mahomes is and will be a special player, not going to argue otherwise.  Don't forget that Mahomes sat all 2017 behind Alex Smith while being developed by Andy Reid, which is a big leg up compared to what Josh Allen had.  A little early for HOF predictions with this new group of QBs.

 

You seem miffed that the Bills passed on Mahomes in 2017 draft; ok, fine...but water under the bridge.  Move on.  

If Josh Allen aligns with Big Ben and John Elway, I'm more than ok with that.  Good for Mahomes if he compares to Marino/Favre/Rodgers or anyone else.

 

No doubt it will be interesting watching Mahomes, Allen, and Darnold and comparing their style to past (or nearly past) QBs.  I'm excited to see what Josh Allen does this year with a rebuilt OL and a better WR corps.  

[Augie]

6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

 

However, I think if Allen had had a year on the bench at KC and then had become the starter in 2018, HE would have been the MVP.   Great coaching, great surrounding cast, plus Allen's talent.  

 

As a fellow optimist, I’ll admit I see this as overly optimistic. But why are we not still arguing what could have been if we took Tom Brady in the 5th? This entire inane argument is pointless. We didn’t have our current GM when the Mahomes draft slot was traded. There was plenty of doubt about Mahomes, many similar to Allen.  He was not an Andrew Luck prospect.  At some point you have to move on. That’s life. Whining won’t change it, so look forward. 

[Rico]

38 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I guess you are afraid to say but I'm not.

 

I think he would have broken the franchise record for TD passes in a single season last year..........probably 35...........so tied for second most in the NFL to Andrew Luck(39) instead of being first.

 

And I think he would still be the most valued player in the NFL.

 

As @Zerovoltz said there is no combo of players that his team would trade him for.....and that would still be the same. 

 

He's just a Marino/Favre/Rodgers level passer of the football.    Rarely see two of those at about the same age in the NFL at the same time but hopefully Allen joins him.

 

My guess is Allen's ceiling is more of a cross between Big Ben and Elway.   He doesn't have the pitch variety of Mahomes....that will always allow Mahomes to stack passing stats even if he doesn't have elite targets.

 

 But Allen hasn't gotten far off of his floor as a passer yet....................Mahomes already had a season that was so good that it's hard to imagine him NOT becoming a HOF'er.   Dude is amazing.

 

As I've said many times.........the hope as a Bills fans should be that Allen ends up on better teams and wins more like the Kelly/Marino dynamic.

I've seen this before with Dan Marino, and just like with Dan Marino,

It don't mean a thing

if you don't get a ring.

[SoTier]

 

8 hours ago, Augie said:

 

As a fellow optimist, I’ll admit I see this as overly optimistic. But why are we not still arguing what could have been if we took Tom Brady in the 5th? This entire inane argument is pointless. We didn’t have our current GM when the Mahomes draft slot was traded. There was plenty of doubt about Mahomes, many similar to Allen.  He was not an Andrew Luck prospect.  At some point you have to move on. That’s life. Whining won’t change it, so look forward. 

 

First round QB prospects not are divided simply between  Andrew Luck and everybody else.  Mahomes was a significantly better prospect than Allen.  He had two outstanding seasons before the draft, including leading the NCAA in yards per game (421), passing yards (5,052), total offense (5,312), points responsible for (318), and total touchdowns (53), and being named the top college passer as a junior.

 

Allen played at a much more modest collegiate program where he wasn't even statistically the best QB in his conference.  He was named 2nd team All Mountain West Conference in 2016 but his second year as a starter at Wyoming was not as good as his first.

 

Unfortunately for Allen, he's always going to be compared to Mahomes because the Bills traded away the pick that was used by the Chiefs to take Mahomes.

 

 

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

If Dee Ford doesn’t go Offside and Mahomes wins the super bowl are these idiots saying “He has a Super Bowl caliber supporting cast! The Bills don’t win the super bowl. He would not be the same player if we drafted him. He would not have won the super bowl!”

[dave mcbride]

16 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Same HC and group of players that lost to the Tyrod-lead Bills in KC in 2017.

 

They looked utterly anemic offensively with the pedestrian(but not bad) Alex Smith at QB.

 

The Chiefs were not considered a talented offensive unit with those players UNTIL Mahomes took over at QB.

 

Also the casual NFL fan notion that Andy Reid is a passing game genius is wrong.

 

Hell he had a team in KC a few years back that didn't throw a TD to a WR all season. 

 

??

 

KC’s 2017 offense was 4th in offensive DVOA, 6th in points, and 5th in yards. You can’t cherry pick one game — and the Bills game no less (homer goggles alert!) — and conflate it with an entire season. They had a near-elite offense overall that year.

[K-9]

1 hour ago, Chemical said:

If Dee Ford doesn’t go Offside and Mahomes wins the super bowl are these idiots saying “He has a Super Bowl caliber supporting cast! The Bills don’t win the super bowl. He would not be the same player if we drafted him. He would not have won the super bowl!”

Mahomes is obviously good enough to win the SB now, but he can't do it by himself. Not sure what your point is. He may not have a SB caliber supporting cast just yet, especially on defense, but there were three Pro Bowlers (Hill, Kelce, Hunt) at skill positions to pitch to and Andy Reid who knows how to scheme guys open when he showed up. 

 

If you really, honestly think Mahomes would have won the SB or pitched 50 TD passes with a stable of Deonte Thompson, Zay Jones, Charles Clay, and Shady with Rick Dennison as the architect, what can I say? Other than I question your ability to be judging anyone's idiocy around here. 

[BADOLBILZ]

11 hours ago, Rico said:

I've seen this before with Dan Marino, and just like with Dan Marino,

It don't mean a thing

if you don't get a ring.

 

I wouldn't say it don't mean a thing.    You didn't enjoy the early 1990's as a Bills fan?  Not a fan of Jimbo?