oldmanfan Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, JohnC said: The irony is that from a rebuild perspective this roster, cap structure and organization has dramatically changed in a short period of time. Go back and look at the roster inherited and at the current roster entering into the third year. If you factor in the fact that McDermott took over before he had control of the organizational apparatus then the change within that short time span has been even more dramatic and impressive. Before he took over the Bills hadn't had a franchise qb in a quarter century. The McBeane tandem drafted their franchise qb (hopefully) in their second draft or in reality in their first full control draft. That's nothing to sneer at. While many in the lamenting chorus are fixated on Peterman, a fifth round draft pick, that same discordant chorus avoids acknowledging the creative maneuvering it took to select Josh Allen. My general point is that in a relatively short time span this organization has made emphatic moves that although in the short term have proven to be painful but also purposeful. No one is requiring anyone to agree with everything that has been done but not being open to the possibility, if not the probability, that this franchise is in a good position to succeed makes little sense to me. Good points all. It is of course unrealistic to think that every move made by new management will be successful. Some that Beane and McD have made were wrong, and some will continue to be wrong. And some right, as it is in every organization. Your point about them changing dramatically in a short time period is interesting. I have been the new guy coming in, and I have seen the new guy coming in, and there are generally two ways to go about it. One is to come in and quietly observe for a while, see what's working and what isn't, then gradually effect changes. The other is to rip the Band-Aid off and get after it. I think McD was the latter; I think he had done his homework, knew what was going on with this team under Rex, knew the culture had to change, and convinced Terry it needed to get done quickly to move forward. 1
Shaw66 Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 29 minutes ago, JohnC said: The irony is that from a rebuild perspective this roster, cap structure and organization has dramatically changed in a short period of time. Go back and look at the roster inherited and at the current roster entering into the third year. If you factor in the fact that McDermott took over before he had control of the organizational apparatus then the change within that short time span has been even more dramatic and impressive. Before he took over the Bills hadn't had a franchise qb in a quarter century. The McBeane tandem drafted their franchise qb (hopefully) in their second draft or in reality in their first full control draft. That's nothing to sneer at. While many in the lamenting chorus are fixated on Peterman, a fifth round draft pick, that same discordant chorus avoids acknowledging the creative maneuvering it took to select Josh Allen. My general point is that in a relatively short time span this organization has made emphatic moves that although in the short term have proven to be painful but also purposeful. No one is requiring anyone to agree with everything that has been done but not being open to the possibility, if not the probability, that this franchise is in a good position to succeed makes little sense to me. This is excellent. With retirements of Eric and Kyle, this is really a brand new team. That is an accomplishment in and of itself. Now, for the winning ... 1
JohnC Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 10 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: This is excellent. With retirements of Eric and Kyle, this is really a brand new team. That is an accomplishment in and of itself. Now, for the winning … This offseason was dedicated to putting Josh in a position to succeed. Is the OL reconstruction going to be successful? Is the receiving unit going to be upgraded with the offseason additions? As you succinctly stated: Now for the winning. There are two factions on different sides of the fence. You and I are on the side with the green grass while some others are on the side with the barren dirt.
Shaw66 Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 1 hour ago, JohnC said: This offseason was dedicated to putting Josh in a position to succeed. Is the OL reconstruction going to be successful? Is the receiving unit going to be upgraded with the offseason additions? As you succinctly stated: Now for the winning. There are two factions on different sides of the fence. You and I are on the side with the green grass while some others are on the side with the barren dirt. I'm sticking with what I wrote a month ago: we are witnessing the beginning of a decade of sustained excellence. It's coming. I hope I live to see it.
HappyDays Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: Don't bring up your role with the Bills as if it's pertinent to the discussion and then refuse to discuss what your role was or why you were fired. I don't really care about your bad takes regarding the Bills. But this is genuinely awful. Maybe take a break from posting. If it was up to me, after this comment that break would be enforced. 1
JohnC Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 35 minutes ago, HappyDays said: I don't really care about your bad takes regarding the Bills. But this is genuinely awful. Maybe take a break from posting. If it was up to me, after this comment that break would be enforced. Some people recoil at the notion that someone would challenge what they believe to be their unchallengeable positions on an issues. Instead of disagreeing with a point in a discussion it is easier to resort to smearing the individual. That's what happened with the Warrow exchanges and also in this case with K-9. K-9 can defend his positions well enough with anyone. He's not sensitive to his views being challenged or even criticized. He can capably mix it up with anyone. But this repeated descent into sidetracking a discussion by personal slings is the standard behavior of odious scoundrels
BADOLBILZ Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 43 minutes ago, HappyDays said: I don't really care about your bad takes regarding the Bills. But this is genuinely awful. Maybe take a break from posting. If it was up to me, after this comment that break would be enforced. Un-clutch your pearls or block me.........easy fix. My bad takes on the Bills since this board began are few and far between, unfortunately. Case in point..........the new thread about the 2016 draft...........I am pretty sure @eballand @K-9 were both pretty irked about my takes on Shaq and Ragnuts after that draft...........but that gets conveniently forgotten as they move on to their next outrage. Your bad takes...........well that's 7K and counting........and you bet I don't care about them.
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 1 hour ago, HappyDays said: I don't really care about your bad takes regarding the Bills. But this is genuinely awful. Maybe take a break from posting. If it was up to me, after this comment that break would be enforced. ...it is his masochistic tendencies norm Happy.....keep you blood pressure in check bro.....he ain't worth it..... 1
K-9 Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 34 minutes ago, JohnC said: Some people recoil at the notion that someone would challenge what they believe to be their unchallengeable positions on an issues. Instead of disagreeing with a point in a discussion it is easier to resort to smearing the individual. That's what happened with the Warrow exchanges and also in this case with K-9. K-9 can defend his positions well enough with anyone. He's not sensitive to his views being challenged or even criticized. He can capably mix it up with anyone. But this repeated descent into sidetracking a discussion by personal slings is the standard behavior of odious scoundrels Don’t make me stop this car! Seriously, I appreciate the sentiment, John. But I need to worry about my own act being offensive as well at times. Besides, if it were someone I held in high esteem around here doing the smearing, I’d actually be concerned, But I’m not, really. Not when I consider the source(s). 1
K-9 Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 31 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Un-clutch your pearls or block me.........easy fix. My bad takes on the Bills since this board began are few and far between, unfortunately. Case in point..........the new thread about the 2016 draft...........I am pretty sure @eballand @K-9 were both pretty irked about my takes on Shaq and Ragnuts after that draft...........but that gets conveniently forgotten as they move on to their next outrage. Your bad takes...........well that's 7K and counting........and you bet I don't care about them. Regarding Lawson, yeah, I defended the pick because getting him at 19 was good value. And the shoulder issue and subsequent time off was predictable and manageable, so I wasn’t concerned. You can’t be more wrong about my take on Ragland who I always thought was a two down thumper at best who lacked the athleticism required. He’s been pretty much as expected. So you’re one for two in that regard. So, you’ve at least upped your average a tick. Congrats. The only person I see “outraged” around here is you as you seem unable to stomach the idea that anyone could possibly dare to disagree with your self ascribed genius. But yeah, you’ve got some laser sharp 20/20 hindsight for sure. Well done.
Rock-A-Bye Beasley Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 (edited) It’s always the “positive” group that makes it personal first I’ve noticed. Go back and check in this thread and many others. Edit: I should say usually. Obviously there are exceptions but I’ve noticed a trend. Edited June 21, 2019 by Chemical 1 1
BADOLBILZ Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 5 hours ago, eball said: If McBeane's process results in sustained success you can bet the "they shouldn't have torn it down" crowd will be quick with the rationale that the Bills are only good because they "lucked out" with Allen. I'm still wondering why Shady is on this team, given McD's obvious fear and loathing of star players. Oh, that's right -- they "bought" his buy-in. I guess they bought Mitch Morse's, John Brown's, Cole Beasley's, and Frank Gore's buy-in also. 1. If Allen pans out it won't be luck. Luck was inheriting a team in a year when Mahomes and Watson were both available at their first pick. McD punted on those guys.........which as @thebandit27 said could turn out to be the biggest draft blunder in team history.........but they also became the first regime to ever go all-in on a rookie QB in round 1. If Allen pans out and McBeane end up in oblivion then at least they got a QB. 2. If the "McD's obvious fear and loathing of star players" is in reference to one of my takes that is certainly not what I have said. I mean they were in on Antonio Brown......he's a star. LeSean McCoy was not a prime age player when they inherited him and he was already double dipping on a contract. His only leverage was to b*tch about McBeane and knowing that they paid him extra not to. 3. Obviously giving Mitch Morse the highest AAV contract for a center in NFL history and also paying those other guys more than anyone else was how they got them excited about the project. I KNOW you think that they came here just because they liked what McBeane were selling but that really isn't how free agency works. 17 minutes ago, K-9 said: Regarding Lawson, yeah, I defended the pick because getting him at 19 was good value. And the shoulder issue and subsequent time off was predictable and manageable, so I wasn’t concerned. You should take your own advice and not judge a draft until after 3 years rather than blame me for calling Shaq an "uninspired" pick at the time..........and then him being exactly that kinda' player. 1
BADOLBILZ Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 16 minutes ago, Chemical said: It’s always the “positive” group that makes it personal first I’ve noticed. Go back and check in this thread and many others. Edit: I should say usually. Obviously there are exceptions but I’ve noticed a trend. Oh it's ALWAYS. Our apologists take skepticism of the team moves personally...........they can't help it because by nature they can't keep it in perspective. On 6/20/2019 at 6:17 PM, GunnerBill said: Doesn't mean I have to think it damaged the 2019 Bills or beyond. But it basically threw games in 2017 and 2018 and it was entirely predictable to anyone who watched, and I mean really watched, his college tape. You see NFL Network's Adam Rank's prediction that the Bills would start out 7-4 this year and lose 4 straight to fall out of the playoffs? We were discussing scenario's that could cost McBeane their jobs earlier in this thread............you think that would put them in jeopardy of firing?
K-9 Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 (edited) 33 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: You should take your own advice and not judge a draft until after 3 years rather than blame me for calling Shaq an "uninspired" pick at the time..........and then him being exactly that kinda' player. I fully intend to as it's still the accepted rule. The only thing that's changed over the years are the economics that force more veterans out (as you've said), and the subsequent pressure to get younger, cheaper players in the lineup sooner. But that has nothing to do with a player's natural development arc. Some can handle playing earlier, others can't. And that will never change. As for Shaq Lawson, get over yourself. Getting him at 19 was good value. You disagreed. So the F what? Another chapter closed. Move on. Edited June 21, 2019 by K-9 1
John from Riverside Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 14 hours ago, Zerovoltz said: It was only one year....but a historic, league MVP year at the most important position in the game. It's the offseason and not much going on and it's 4 AM and I am at work doing nothing....so I forgive me if I couldn't resist to troll a little here... Come on.....in the history of the NFL, no one would ever trade a 23 year old league MVP at QB coming off a historic season, for any combo of players ever. I understand the circumstances of how the Mahomes trade went down....given that Buffalo was NOT taking a QB in the 2017 draft under any circumstances...then trading out was a fine thing to do. The mistake wasn't with McDermott...and Beane wasn't around....the owners (pegulas) awkward hiring of coach, then having lame duck GM...then later hiring GM after draft...all but assured that there would be no QB taken. McDermott simply wasn't in a position to make a well informed committment to ANY of them at the time of the 2017 draft. So again...GIVEN that the Bills were not in the QB market in 2017 due to circumstances created by the team owners...McD did VERY WELL. But that's like saying the Edmonton Oilers did VERY WELL when they traded Wayne Gretzky. You can't "win" that trade. At best, you could say the Oilers didn't completely lose the trade...they did go on to win a cup in 1990 without Gretzky.....it's similar in this case. Buffalo can not "win" the Mahomes trade...but it is entirely possible that they didn't lose it if Allen works out...the other bits...Tre White and Edmunds look good so far...but no executive ever, would trade Mahomes for Allen, Edmunds and White....you could even throw in the next 10 Bills round 1 picks with those guys and no one makes that trade. It all hinges of course on Allen...if he becomes a top 10 NFL QB....along with the other guys in the trade...you will have done well and not lost the trade. And like clockwork. ............
eball Posted June 22, 2019 Posted June 22, 2019 3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: 2. If the "McD's obvious fear and loathing of star players" is in reference to one of my takes that is certainly not what I have said. I mean they were in on Antonio Brown......he's a star. LeSean McCoy was not a prime age player when they inherited him and he was already double dipping on a contract. His only leverage was to b*tch about McBeane and knowing that they paid him extra not to. Oh it’s absolutely what you said. I’m not surprised you are backtracking from that historically absurd take. 1
BADOLBILZ Posted June 22, 2019 Posted June 22, 2019 49 minutes ago, eball said: Oh it’s absolutely what you said. I’m not surprised you are backtracking from that historically absurd take. Nah.........McD likes star players.........are you saying he didn't like Luke Kuechly? He didn't like Kawann Short? Thomas Davis? You really over-did the Boones Farm tonight eebs........what NFL coach "loathes" stars? What he didn't like was a bunch of prime aged young talent that was approaching free agency decisions when he was trying to buy time for his process...........he wasn't going to earn anyone's trust he was going to get it or tear it down........that(and the Mahomes trade) are the primary reasons why he's struggled while guys like McVay and Anthony Lynn have flourished. LeSean McCoy was a RB entering his year 29 season when McDermott took over.........that's NOT prime aged for any position outside of QB..........but DEFINITELY not RB...........that's the precipice of the generally accepted drop-dead age for superstardom at the RB position(which is exactly what happened with his ypa dropping off an astonishing 1.5 yards from 2016-2017). Star RB's historically turn to JAG's at 30 and McCoy has been well below league average ypa since he turned 29.
Gugny Posted June 22, 2019 Posted June 22, 2019 26 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Nah.........McD likes star players.........are you saying he didn't like Luke Kuechly? He didn't like Kawann Short? Thomas Davis? You really over-did the Boones Farm tonight eebs........what NFL coach "loathes" stars? What he didn't like was a bunch of prime aged young talent that was approaching free agency decisions when he was trying to buy time for his process...........he wasn't going to earn anyone's trust he was going to get it or tear it down........that(and the Mahomes trade) are the primary reasons why he's struggled while guys like McVay and Anthony Lynn have flourished. LeSean McCoy was a RB entering his year 29 season when McDermott took over.........that's NOT prime aged for any position outside of QB..........but DEFINITELY not RB...........that's the precipice of the generally accepted drop-dead age for superstardom at the RB position(which is exactly what happened with his ypa dropping off an astonishing 1.5 yards from 2016-2017). Star RB's historically turn to JAG's at 30 and McCoy has been well below league average ypa since he turned 29. I'll agree with you with regard to McCoy. Should have been traded long ago. But how has Anthony Lynn flourished?
John from Riverside Posted June 22, 2019 Posted June 22, 2019 7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: Un-clutch your pearls or block me.........easy fix. My bad takes on the Bills since this board began are few and far between, unfortunately. Case in point..........the new thread about the 2016 draft...........I am pretty sure @eballand @K-9 were both pretty irked about my takes on Shaq and Ragnuts after that draft...........but that gets conveniently forgotten as they move on to their next outrage. Your bad takes...........well that's 7K and counting........and you bet I don't care about them. This is why you continually get "breaks" from posting forced on you...... You know.....you do have some great takes....even I think you have some really great ones.....but the way you talk down to people is just ***** irrating and wear on people
GunnerBill Posted June 22, 2019 Posted June 22, 2019 9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: You see NFL Network's Adam Rank's prediction that the Bills would start out 7-4 this year and lose 4 straight to fall out of the playoffs? We were discussing scenario's that could cost McBeane their jobs earlier in this thread............you think that would put them in jeopardy of firing? They would have to lose t straight to be 7-9. That sort of 7-9 might, for sure. Especially if those games are collapses. If they lose 4 games by 3 points or fewer then probably not. But if from 7-4 they took 3 heavy beatings say then yes I could see them in trouble. An 8-8 (even from 7-4) I think they'd probably be okay.
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