BADOLBILZ Posted June 19, 2019 Posted June 19, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, GunnerBill said: So as you know I completely agree that everything they did was choice and they could have chosen to build on what they had. The tear down was not inevitable. It was their decision and the poor talent they fielded last year while carrying $50m of dead cap was a result of that decision. However, once they had asserted that they needed to address culture in the building they could not do that with Dareus. He is, and always was actually - even when he was performing on the field, the antethesis of the approach and personality McDermott wanted from his team. I have referenced before that I embarked on a culture change project as a semi-pro soccer coach about a decade or so ago now. Within 3 games I had come to the conclusion that I couldn't do it with the most talented player on my current squad. I had to move him on. I didn't tear down the entire squad - but he to me was like Dareus to McDermott. He was the guy who was just never, ever, even if in "bought in" mode going to represent what I wanted to acheive. Results did suffer for a short time. But I managed to get the culture I wanted and within 2 and a half seasons we went from pretty much the worst team in the league consistenly battling relegation to a team competing for promotion and only missing out on tiebreakers. I couldn't have done that with John. As talented as he was. Of all the top end players that McDermott let go in that first year or so (Gilmore, Woods, Darby, Glenn, Watkins, Dareus...) Dareus was the one that I thought was the most inevitable and most necessary. Oh if it was just Dareus that they moved on from then fine...............your coaching situation was entirely different being just one player...........but when you extract that much talent to change a culture...........and then watch most of those players go elsewhere and excel and not in any way impede their teams SIGNIFICANTLY greater success...........well that's the issue. I am assuming John didn't go on to greater things with other teams but even if he did that's just one player............not 5 players ending up starters in championship games and 3 of them in Super Bowls while the Bills labored to a 10-15 record since the last one was pared off the Bills roster. Dareus wasn't the most valuable of that group but it turned out that he was the last straw....................his trade undermined what should have been the Bills first double digit win season in almost two decades. I still have no clue why they made the deal in-season.............if you are sure he's going to hurt your process then you can't go into the season with him.............but to make the move in season in a playoff race was a dubious decision..........and the draft pick certainly wasn't worth the exposure to a cast of practice squad players manning that position. Edited June 19, 2019 by BADOLBILZ 1
oldmanfan Posted June 19, 2019 Posted June 19, 2019 8 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Oh if it was just Dareus that they moved on from then fine...............your coaching situation was entirely different being just one player...........but when you extract that much talent to change a culture...........and then watch most of those players go elsewhere and excel and not in any way impede their teams SIGNIFICANTLY greater success...........well that's the issue. I am assuming John didn't go on to greater things with other teams but even if he did that's just one player............not 5 players ending up starters in championship games and 3 of them in Super Bowls while the Bills labored to a 10-15 record since the last one was pared off the Bills roster. Dareus wasn't the most valuable of that group but it turned out that he was the last straw....................his trade undermined what should have been the Bills first double digit win season in almost two decades. I still have no clue why they made the deal in-season.............if you are sure he's going to hurt your process then you can't go into the season with him.............but to make the move in season in a playoff race was a dubious decision..........and the draft pick certainly wasn't worth the exposure to a cast of practice squad players manning that position. You don't know what might have been going on in the locker room. None of us do.
K-9 Posted June 19, 2019 Posted June 19, 2019 1 minute ago, Chemical said: Thats because it’s nonsense. Every single one of the players they traded or let go have been to the championship game or super bowl. The other example in hockey recently is Oreilly winning the cup and conn smyth. Evander Kane making the WCF. The same argument was made that they poison locker rooms. Turns out having a bad coach will do a lot more damage than a frustrated but talented player. Now I suppose this is where you’ll tell me they changed their attitude after leaving. Or that they weren’t the BEST player on their new team so it worked out somehow. Kane and O'Reilly are crap examples, so I dismiss them out of hand. Both never gave less than 100% on the ice. Ever. Both have been dedicated professionals who pay the price in the off season to keep in shape. Other than Kane who missed one team meeting in Buffalo, both have been consummate professionals with their punctuality. Other than Kane's one game suspension for a cross check, neither have faced league punishment for multiple infractions and neither is one more infraction away from a season long suspension. Kane also benefited from going to a great situation in San Jose with a strong, well established, veteran-led culture. The same simply can't be said about Dareus who had demonstrated a list of character concerns over the years. But that's been pointed out ad infinitum around here. You're just too intractable in your position to accept that. Not only was getting rid of him the right move by a coach trying to establish a new culture early in his tenure, it was necessary for it to have any chance to succeed. Per the bold, this is where I tell you no such thing about a change in their attitude as none was required. Although when Berube was named HC in St Louis when they were in last place in the league on January 1st, he made it a point to talk to O'Reilly about the hang dog act after all the losing. Good for him and good for O'Reilly who took it to heart. O'Reilly was let go for several reasons, his locker cleanout day interview about his "lost love of the game" not being chief among them.
Forward Progress Posted June 19, 2019 Posted June 19, 2019 4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Oh if it was just Dareus that they moved on from then fine...............your coaching situation was entirely different being just one player...........but when you extract that much talent to change a culture...........and then watch most of those players go elsewhere and excel and not in any way impede their teams SIGNIFICANTLY greater success...........well that's the issue. I am assuming John didn't go on to greater things with other teams but even if he did that's just one player............not 5 players ending up starters in championship games and 3 of them in Super Bowls while the Bills labored to a 10-15 record since the last one was pared off the Bills roster. Dareus wasn't the most valuable of that group but it turned out that he was the last straw....................his trade undermined what should have been the Bills first double digit win season in almost two decades. I still have no clue why they made the deal in-season.............if you are sure he's going to hurt your process then you can't go into the season with him.............but to make the move in season in a playoff race was a dubious decision..........and the draft pick certainly wasn't worth the exposure to a cast of practice squad players manning that position. The debate of culture vs. talent is an interesting one, to say the least. I think that you need both to win in the NFL, because the league is so competitive. The 2018 Bills had a good culture, that lacked talent, depth and competition at every position. The next step in culture evolution for this team is real competition at every position which drives players to improve to keep their million dollar jobs. It is essential that the best players are self-motivated individuals because their talent allows them to get by without a full effort. To compete in the NFL the best players need to be your best players, and not be satisfied by staying above the backups on the depth chart. Dareus was satisfied with with his situation and wasn't driven to be the best. I think that Watkins could have been more if he hadn't landed in Club Rex. Watkins was told he was the shiny Ferrari in the garage and he wasn't motivated to escalate his level of play to his highest possible level of play. When Tre' White was told by GMFB that he may be the best CB in football. He brushed the comment off and talked about how he's working hard every day to take his game to the next level. This is the type of attitude you want from your best players. He could be satisfied with his level of play today and has already done enough to position himself for a big second contract. When Ed Oliver walks into a culture like this (where nothing is given, everything is earned and the leaders on the team set the kind of example that Tre' is), he starts down the path of continuously improving his game instead of being content with his God-given talent.
oldmanfan Posted June 19, 2019 Posted June 19, 2019 34 minutes ago, Chemical said: Thats because it’s nonsense. Every single one of the players they traded or let go besides Glenn have been to the championship game or super bowl. The other example in hockey recently is Oreilly winning the cup and conn smyth. Evander Kane making the WCF. The same argument was made that they poison locker rooms. Turns out having a bad coach will do a lot more damage than a frustrated but talented player. Now I suppose this is where you’ll tell me they changed their attitude after leaving. Or that they weren’t the BEST player on their new team so it worked out somehow. After trading Dareus and Watkins and after Gilmore leaving the Bills made the playoffs. And by the way when a guy signs with another team in free agency you are not letting them go. Hockey I hope Krueger brings the same kind of approach as McD. Set clear expectations, be willing to communicate expectations, and so on.
BADOLBILZ Posted June 19, 2019 Posted June 19, 2019 13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: It isn't always about "this guy is a bad egg and will always be a bad egg." The guy I was specifically referring to in my example I worked with at another club where his attitude was exactly the same but it worked there because he was a fit for who we were and what we wanted to get done. And he was genuinely very talented. Not all situations are created equal. There isn't another of the talented group that the Bills lost in one way or another that I feel like couldn't with time and a bit of meeting in the middle have been a culture fit for what McDermott wanted to build. But I couldn't ever see Dareus being. I happen to agree with Gug that McDermott knew pretty much exactly when he took over that Dareus was not for him long term. Oh absolutely. I don't think for a minute that McDermott came into this job with an open mind about the personnel. I think he was arrogant like most new HC's but also knew that he wasn't a game changing X and O guy...........and that his background wasn't that impressive so he wasn't going to have an easy time winning over prime age players in ANY locker room outside of Carolina...........and he found a job here in Buffalo where he would be given the freedom to build a roster in his image and jumped at the chance. For an unsophisticated first time HC who has a lot of re-tread potential this is a very good opportunity..........plenty of built in excuses and if it doesn't work he can say he learned from his "honest" mistakes like trying to improve culture in the next interview. But I think he's already changed his tune about the sanctity of the process.............losing will do that............and that's why they were all over Antonio Brown who is anything but process when it comes to being a teammate. If they don't win this year it could get ugly like the end of the Jauron era where Dickie went from Jauron Ball to trying to create a no-huddle offense and taking TO into the fold. 1
oldmanfan Posted June 19, 2019 Posted June 19, 2019 8 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Oh absolutely. I don't think for a minute that McDermott came into this job with an open mind about the personnel. I think he was arrogant like most new HC's but also knew that he wasn't a game changing X and O guy...........and that his background wasn't that impressive so he wasn't going to have an easy time winning over prime age players in ANY locker room outside of Carolina...........and he found a job here in Buffalo where he would be given the freedom to build a roster in his image and jumped at the chance. For an unsophisticated first time HC who has a lot of re-tread potential this is a very good opportunity..........plenty of built in excuses and if it doesn't work he can say he learned from his "honest" mistakes like trying to improve culture in the next interview. But I think he's already changed his tune about the sanctity of the process.............losing will do that............and that's why they were all over Antonio Brown who is anything but process when it comes to being a teammate. If they don't win this year it could get ugly like the end of the Jauron era where Dickie went from Jauron Ball to trying to create a no-huddle offense and taking TO into the fold. So McD came into the job thinking his own background wasn't impressive. You have got to be either joking or high on something. 2
Dr. Who Posted June 19, 2019 Posted June 19, 2019 1 minute ago, oldmanfan said: So McD came into the job thinking his own background wasn't impressive. You have got to be either joking or high on something. Yeah, I don't see the desperation narrative at all. I think you consider Antonio Brown because you're confident in your locker room and think you can bring a fella like that in. Anyway, that's a counter-narrative. If they hit on Allen, they're going to be here a long time. If not, probably not. All the other speculation is peripheral. 1
K-9 Posted June 19, 2019 Posted June 19, 2019 13 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: After trading Dareus and Watkins and after Gilmore leaving the Bills made the playoffs. And by the way when a guy signs with another team in free agency you are not letting them go. Hockey I hope Krueger brings the same kind of approach as McD. Set clear expectations, be willing to communicate expectations, and so on. Our friend likes to conflate every other player we let go or lost in free agency with the Dareus situation. Gilmore, Woods, Darby, Glenn, Watkins, et al are gone for different reasons than being an out of shape tub of goo with chronic tardiness issues facing a year long suspension for the next infraction while only giving minimum effort much of the time while indicating he has no interest in buying into a new coach's program. Apologies for the mother of all run on sentences. 1
BADOLBILZ Posted June 19, 2019 Posted June 19, 2019 15 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: You don't know what might have been going on in the locker room. None of us do. I know this much............I was embarrassed about how the organization handled the Dareus situation in preseason. I literally sat in traffic on Transit listening to Chris Brown on the Bills network preseason pre-game dress down Dareus for not being more committed to excellence and use all of his dead family members to question why he couldn't appreciate his teammates more. With all the people you've lost why can't you be a better teammate? Ridiculous and way out of bounds for a Bills employee. It was probably the most insulting thing I've heard from a team shill in any sport............and it was clearly being fed from management because that guy doesn't have the authority to speak like that without permission. At that point I was like please for chrissakes just cut the f*cking guy. And I said it here then. But they didn't have the balls to do it............they waited until he helped them to a good record and then pulled the rug out from under themselves and narrowly avoided a Dick Jauron/Chan Gailey-esque fast start first half and second half playoff collapse. 1
Dr. Who Posted June 19, 2019 Posted June 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, K-9 said: Apologies for the mother of all run on sentences. Yes, but rhetorically effective. 1
Shaw66 Posted June 19, 2019 Posted June 19, 2019 21 minutes ago, K-9 said: The same simply can't be said about Dareus who had demonstrated a list of character concerns over the years. But that's been pointed out ad infinitum around here. You're just too intractable in your position to accept that. I recall McDermott being asked about Dareus and his history of difficulties since arriving in the NFL. McDermott said every player, including Marcel, starts with a clean slate with him. He essentially said that what you do with McD as the coach is what he will judge you on. And McD kept Marcel around long to see what he brought to the game, purely physically and off the field. What McD saw is what everyone saw - a super talented buy who was an absolute joy when things were going well and who sulked when they weren't. He saw a player who made great plays and then disappeared. I'm sure McD did with Dareus what he does with everyone - he told him what the expectations were, Dareus agreed with those expectations, and then Dareus didn't deliver. McD will not keep anyone who doesn't genuinely work to meet expectations. I think Hughes is a great comparison. Hughes wasn't a sulker, but Hughes was something of a gunslinger at his position. He loved the big play, and from his arrival in Buffalo he demonstrated lousy gap control - he was a free-lancer whose talent allowed him to make some big plays and sometimes to recover from his mistakes. I thought he'd be gone too, but Hughes got the message. McD told him what he expected of Hughes and Hughes delivered. Hughes is still a Bill, with a nice extension. Marcel is off doing his thing. It's quite simple, and it's quite obvious how it works. 2
K-9 Posted June 19, 2019 Posted June 19, 2019 1 minute ago, Shaw66 said: I recall McDermott being asked about Dareus and his history of difficulties since arriving in the NFL. McDermott said every player, including Marcel, starts with a clean slate with him. He essentially said that what you do with McD as the coach is what he will judge you on. And McD kept Marcel around long to see what he brought to the game, purely physically and off the field. What McD saw is what everyone saw - a super talented buy who was an absolute joy when things were going well and who sulked when they weren't. He saw a player who made great plays and then disappeared. I'm sure McD did with Dareus what he does with everyone - he told him what the expectations were, Dareus agreed with those expectations, and then Dareus didn't deliver. McD will not keep anyone who doesn't genuinely work to meet expectations. I think Hughes is a great comparison. Hughes wasn't a sulker, but Hughes was something of a gunslinger at his position. He loved the big play, and from his arrival in Buffalo he demonstrated lousy gap control - he was a free-lancer whose talent allowed him to make some big plays and sometimes to recover from his mistakes. I thought he'd be gone too, but Hughes got the message. McD told him what he expected of Hughes and Hughes delivered. Hughes is still a Bill, with a nice extension. Marcel is off doing his thing. It's quite simple, and it's quite obvious how it works. As good a summary of the situation as I've read, especially with the apt comparison between Dareus and Hughes. Spot on. 1
BADOLBILZ Posted June 19, 2019 Posted June 19, 2019 29 minutes ago, K-9 said: Kane and O'Reilly are crap examples, so I dismiss them out of hand. This is what I mean...........you got excuses up the cloaca if it justifies Sabres management being drawn and quartered.........but the Bills........well management was right about THOSE moves! 1
GunnerBill Posted June 19, 2019 Posted June 19, 2019 39 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Oh if it was just Dareus that they moved on from then fine...............your coaching situation was entirely different being just one player...........but when you extract that much talent to change a culture...........and then watch most of those players go elsewhere and excel and not in any way impede their teams SIGNIFICANTLY greater success...........well that's the issue. I am assuming John didn't go on to greater things with other teams but even if he did that's just one player............not 5 players ending up starters in championship games and 3 of them in Super Bowls while the Bills labored to a 10-15 record since the last one was pared off the Bills roster. Dareus wasn't the most valuable of that group but it turned out that he was the last straw....................his trade undermined what should have been the Bills first double digit win season in almost two decades. I still have no clue why they made the deal in-season.............if you are sure he's going to hurt your process then you can't go into the season with him.............but to make the move in season in a playoff race was a dubious decision..........and the draft pick certainly wasn't worth the exposure to a cast of practice squad players manning that position. John did actually go on to play in the league above for a team where I assistant coached for a season and we had parted previously on good terms so there wasn't an issue. But that side was a different bunch of characters and personalities and had a totally different swagger and he fitted there much better than on a downtrodden team where losing was accepted. I am pretty clear I think culture fit is a thing. I totally take the point about timing. I'm not sure why having decided they were not going to do it before the season they did it when they did for a 5th round pick. If someone had offered a 1st or a 2nd that is different, but the 5th didn't move the needle in their future strategy. Maybe something happened we are not aware of but I remember waking up to the news at the time and thinking the timing was odd.
K-9 Posted June 19, 2019 Posted June 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: This is what I mean...........you got excuses up the cloaca if it justifies Sabres management being drawn and quartered.........but the Bills........well management was right about THOSE moves! Not sure how my post was a criticism of the Sabres at all. It pointed out how silly of a comparison between the Kane/O'Reilly situations to the Dareus situation really is; on multiple levels. For some reason you like to conflate my criticism of the Sabres with my criticism, or lack thereof (although there's been plenty over the years) of the Bills. I get that your style around here lends itself to extremes in order to stretch to make a point, but this is ridiculous even for you. 1
oldmanfan Posted June 19, 2019 Posted June 19, 2019 5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: I know this much............I was embarrassed about how the organization handled the Dareus situation in preseason. I literally sat in traffic on Transit listening to Chris Brown on the Bills network preseason pre-game dress down Dareus for not being more committed to excellence and use all of his dead family members to question why he couldn't appreciate his teammates more. With all the people you've lost why can't you be a better teammate? Ridiculous and way out of bounds for a Bills employee. It was probably the most insulting thing I've heard from a team shill in any sport............and it was clearly being fed from management because that guy doesn't have the authority to speak like that without permission. At that point I was like please for chrissakes just cut the f*cking guy. And I said it here then. But they didn't have the balls to do it............they waited until he helped them to a good record and then pulled the rug out from under themselves and narrowly avoided a Dick Jauron/Chan Gailey-esque fast start first half and second half playoff collapse. So when a guy can't show up to a bus on time, that's everyone else's fault. When they got back there were pictures of Dareus on the practice field with McD talking to him, trying to reach him. It is crap about folks not trying to help Dareus when he was a Bill. Different coaching staffs tried to help him out , tried to motivate him after the big contract. They couldn't get through to him, or he wouldn't allow people to get through to him. Marrone and Coughlin are trying and from my recollection there were off the field incidents with the Jags as well (I'll research that). I felt for Dareus when his brother died. That's a tough one, and if Brown used it the way you say that's flat out wrong. But there is simply no denying that, after he signed his big contract, Dareus was not and has not been the same player. And you just can't have your highest paid guy not putting out effort. You look at the true stars, guys like a Bird or Jordan or Gretzky or whomever, they practiced harder than anyone, worked harder than anyone, held their teammates accountable to that level of commitment. McD wants guys like that. What coach wouldn't.
Royale with Cheese Posted June 19, 2019 Posted June 19, 2019 1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said: They drafted a 1 tech in Harrison Phillips in the third round in 2017. For a run stuffing DT only that's most definitely a starting grade draft pick. It's a passing league you don't pick backup 1's or 0's early.........those kinda' guys are late picks who are often inactives or practice squadders. So why you keep ignoring Harrison Phillips and saying they haven't addressed the position with a replacement I don't understand..........you can only suit up 47 on game day Royale.........how many "2 down only" DT's do you think are required? You basically need 1 of them plus a versatile DT who can play either...........a bill which a 6' 6" 340# Jordan Phillips might just be able to handle for the 15% of snaps or so. Hence my take that Star could see some healthy scratches if he doesn't come to camp a changed player. But he CERTAINLY isn't going to be cut even if he performs like KB...........not with close to $19M still guaranteed on the books.........I mean if they cut Star with $19M left AFTER already eating Dareus' $24M.........that would be a true feat of stupidity from a GM over a 1 Tech position. Here is my outlook for the season at DT............if Ed Oliver is healthy HE will draw the double teams and Harrison Phillips should have a strong statistical season. I've acknowledged Harrison Phillips and even said I am pretty confident he's going to have increased snaps. This is not what I'm understanding. According to you, Star was trash last year. McDermott breaks down and watches film....he's going to notice it if it's that obvious where a message board member can see it on a broadcast view. Yet, even after we bring on Jordan Phillips....Star's snaps remain consistent for the next 11 weeks. Harrison Phillips who I think was solid as a rookie....did not take away snaps from Star. I just have a hard time believing, McDermott seeing Star being manhandled both live on game days and on film didn't send him to the sidelines....he kept playing him. Here's my outlook, Star remains the starter opposite Oliver with the first team. He plays roughly 45-48% of the defensive snaps throughout the season. His stat line will probably be about 25 or so combined tackles. I think you'll start seeing more of a reduced role in his 3rd year in Buffalo when he's 31....which might be his last in Buffalo.
BADOLBILZ Posted June 19, 2019 Posted June 19, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: I've acknowledged Harrison Phillips and even said I am pretty confident he's going to have increased snaps. This is not what I'm understanding. According to you, Star was trash last year. McDermott breaks down and watches film....he's going to notice it if it's that obvious where a message board member can see it on a broadcast view. Yet, even after we bring on Jordan Phillips....Star's snaps remain consistent for the next 11 weeks. Harrison Phillips who I think was solid as a rookie....did not take away snaps from Star. I just have a hard time believing, McDermott seeing Star being manhandled both live on game days and on film didn't send him to the sidelines....he kept playing him. Here's my outlook, Star remains the starter opposite Oliver with the first team. He plays roughly 45-48% of the defensive snaps throughout the season. His stat line will probably be about 25 or so combined tackles. I think you'll start seeing more of a reduced role in his 3rd year in Buffalo when he's 31....which might be his last in Buffalo. Lotulelei played 67% of defensive snaps under McDermott in Carolina in 2016.............if you think the intention was for him to play less than 50% of snaps and that would remotely justify $10M per year then I don't know what to tell ya'. That really doesn't make any sense. He just didn't play well enough.........that's why he didn't play more.......simple as that. Gunner and I think he played like garbage but regardless of how sub-par he played he was not good and is being paid like the best run stopper in football......... his contract is awful. Edited June 19, 2019 by BADOLBILZ
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