John Warrow’s High Praise For Beane & McDermott Regime

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

You may have thought it was a bad trade at the time.   Others didn't.   It wasn't obviously a bad trade at the time; their were plenty of people excited about and who thought Benjy was the perfect receiver to get for Taylor.   But I'm absolutely certain that Beane had good reasons for doing it.   It just turned out that some of the things he thought were true about Benjamin (from his prior experiences with him) turned out not be true.  So his judgments turned out to be wrong.    Yours has no doubt been wrong on plenty of other decisions.   It happens.  

 

Agreed. That’s all I’m saying, it was wrong.  

 

Keep in mind I’m only reacting to the extra credit some Boy Scout wanted to give Beane for the tyrod trade while turning a blind eye to any other mistakes. Regardless if they were a good idea “at the time” 

[dave mcbride]

On 6/4/2019 at 10:59 AM, oldmanfan said:

It is probably blasphemy around here but I don't see how Marv got into the Hall, at least as quickly as he did.  I think coaching lost the first and fourth SBs.

I totally disagree about the 4th Super Bowl (also @K-9), which I think was actually one of his best coaching efforts. That Cowboys team was a LOT better than the Bills, and Kelly was already in decline (he was never the same after rupturing his bursa sac midway through 1992). The Bills genuinely had a really good plan - a short, high completion-rate passing attack that allowed them to control the first half against an opponent with far superior talent, and a defensive scheme that took away big plays. Plus their two best defensive players that season - Bruce Smith and Nate Odomes - really showed up in that first half. They opened the second half by successfully running the ball down the Cowboys' throats on the first three plays, and then Kent Hull got absolutely embarrassed by Leon Lett, leading to a Thomas fumble. The thing that galls me about that play is that he literally fumbled into the middle of a massive scrum near midfield, and James Washington returned it for a TD. That hardly ever happens. Next, the Cowboys began exploiting the Bills' talent deficiency. On their next drive, they ran right at Phil Hanson (and away from Bruce Smith) 11 out of 13 plays, and Erik Williams buried him on virtually every play. It was sad to watch. Then, on third and goal, Jeff Wright actually gets into the backfield with a clear shot to wrap Emmitt Smith up for a loss, and just ... fails. Epically. Smith tossed him aside like a rag doll and ran in for the score. It should have been 16-13, but instead it was 20-13 and panic set in. The Bills couldn't move the ball, and Kelly eventually forced a pass into triple coverage near mid-field  (while the game was still in reach) and it was of course picked off by James Washington. It was a terrible decision by him. 

 

Anyway, the Bills had a very good plan, but very bad plays by individual players - not bad decisions by coaches - plus a deficiency in talent that eventually manifested itself (as it almost always does) led to the loss.

 

Don't blame Marv for that one. The previous (third) loss was signficantly worse on the coaching front,  and while I could get into the details, I won't.  

 

One other thing: it was outrageous that Washington didn't win MVP. He had two fumble recoveries, a pick, and returned a fumble for a TD.

Edited June 6, 2019 by dave mcbride

[Shaw66]

18 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I totally disagree about the 4th Super Bowl (also @K-9), which I think was actually one of his best coaching efforts. That Cowboys team was a LOT better than the Bills, and Kelly was already in decline (he was never the same after rupturing his bursa sac midway through 1992). The Bills genuinely had a really good plan - a short, high completion-rate passing attack that allowed them to control the first half against an opponent with far superior talent, and a defensive scheme that took away big plays. Plus their two best defensive players that season - Bruce Smith and Nate Odomes - really showed up in that first half. They opened the second half by successfully running the ball down the Cowboys' throats on the first three plays, and then Kent Hull got absolutely embarrassed by Leon Lett, leading to a Thomas fumble. The thing that galls me about that play is that he literally fumbled into the middle of a massive scrum, and James Washington returned it for a TD. That hardly ever happens. Next, the Cowboys began exploiting the Bills' talent deficiency. On their next drive, they ran right at Phil Hanson (and away from Bruce Smith) 11 out of 13 plays, and Erik Williams buried him on virtually every play. It was sad to watch. Then, on third and goal, Jeff Wright actually gets into the backfield with a clear shot to wrap Emmitt Smith up for a loss, and just ... fails. Epically. Smith tossed him aside like a rag doll and ran in for the score. It should have been 16-13, but instead it was 20-13 and panic set in. The Bills couldn't move the ball, and Kelly eventually forced a pass into triple coverage near mid-field  (while the game was still in reach) and it was of course picked off by James Washington. It was a terrible decision by him. 

 

Anyway, the Bills had a very good plan, but very bad plays by individual players - not bad decisions by coaches - plus a deficiency in talent that eventually manifested itself (as it almost always does) led to the loss.

 

Don't blame Marv for that one. The previous (third) loss was signficantly worse on the coaching front,  and while I could get into the details, I won't.  

 

One other thing: it was outrageous that Washington didn't win MVP. He had two fumble recoveries, a pick, and returned a fumble for a TD.

I fault Marv because once he said it wasn't his job to get players emotionally prepared for games.  He said they're professionals and it's their job to get ready emotionally.   They weren't emotionally ready for the first Super Bowl, and I don't think they ready for the fourth either.   The teams that are ready make the plays.  The Bills game out in the second half of the fourth Super Bowl and were seriously outplayed for 20 minutes.   They weren't ready to match the Cowboys' intensity.  

[Coach Tuesday]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I fault Marv because once he said it wasn't his job to get players emotionally prepared for games.  He said they're professionals and it's their job to get ready emotionally.   They weren't emotionally ready for the first Super Bowl, and I don't think they ready for the fourth either.   The teams that are ready make the plays.  The Bills game out in the second half of the fourth Super Bowl and were seriously outplayed for 20 minutes.   They weren't ready to match the Cowboys' intensity.  

 

You don't think the Bills were emotionally ready for the first Super Bowl?  They DOMINATED that game.  They were tired by the time Mark Ingram needed to be tackled.  But they were ready to play and win that game.

[dave mcbride]

18 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I fault Marv because once he said it wasn't his job to get players emotionally prepared for games.  He said they're professionals and it's their job to get ready emotionally.   They weren't emotionally ready for the first Super Bowl, and I don't think they ready for the fourth either.   The teams that are ready make the plays.  The Bills game out in the second half of the fourth Super Bowl and were seriously outplayed for 20 minutes.   They weren't ready to match the Cowboys' intensity.  

I totally disagree. I distinctly remember Michael Irvin coming off the field at halftime and saying this to the on-field reporter about the Bills: "wow, these boys came to play." What happened in the second half was a mix of bad plays by players and the Cowboys' massive structural advantage in talent. Nothing more, nothing less. As for motivation, they were as intense and focused as I've ever seen them in that game. 

Edited June 6, 2019 by dave mcbride

[GunnerBill]

My only wish as a Bills fan is one day I can talk with you guys about their performance in a Superbowl. Losing 4 in a row must have stung somewhat but those years had to be fun, right?

[Bill from NYC]

2 hours ago, K-9 said:

I hear ya, but the key word is “results.” Had EJ developed and Sammy became an All Pro, we wouldn’t be saying he gave away the store. Oh, there might be a few stragglers clinging to the idea that Whaley gave up too much, just as there were after Bennett became a star back in the day.

 

But I submit we’d all be pretty happy if it worked out. 

Fair enough.

[Shaw66]

16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

My only wish as a Bills fan is one day I can talk with you guys about their performance in a Superbowl. Losing 4 in a row must have stung somewhat but those years had to be fun, right?

Great times.  

[oldmanfan]

19 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

My only wish as a Bills fan is one day I can talk with you guys about their performance in a Superbowl. Losing 4 in a row must have stung somewhat but those years had to be fun, right?

It was an amazing run.  I'd also be happy to talk to you about the two AFL championships - that was even better!

[Shaw66]

34 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

You don't think the Bills were emotionally ready for the first Super Bowl?  They DOMINATED that game.  They were tired by the time Mark Ingram needed to be tackled.  But they were ready to play and win that game.

They weren't ready. Belichick told his players to hit the Bulls receivers as hard as they could as often as they could.  Reed admitted they weren't prepared for that.  They came out ready to play just another game. The Giants were ready to play the Super Bowl. 

[Stank_Nasty]

19 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

My only wish as a Bills fan is one day I can talk with you guys about their performance in a Superbowl. Losing 4 in a row must have stung somewhat but those years had to be fun, right?

I was too young to really get it. 5-9 yrs old..... I fear that if anything like that ever happened now, as an invested fan, it may drive me straight to the looney bin.

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

I totally disagree about the 4th Super Bowl (also @K-9), which I think was actually one of his best coaching efforts. That Cowboys team was a LOT better than the Bills, and Kelly was already in decline (he was never the same after rupturing his bursa sac midway through 1992). The Bills genuinely had a really good plan - a short, high completion-rate passing attack that allowed them to control the first half against an opponent with far superior talent, and a defensive scheme that took away big plays. Plus their two best defensive players that season - Bruce Smith and Nate Odomes - really showed up in that first half. They opened the second half by successfully running the ball down the Cowboys' throats on the first three plays, and then Kent Hull got absolutely embarrassed by Leon Lett, leading to a Thomas fumble. The thing that galls me about that play is that he literally fumbled into the middle of a massive scrum near midfield, and James Washington returned it for a TD. That hardly ever happens. Next, the Cowboys began exploiting the Bills' talent deficiency. On their next drive, they ran right at Phil Hanson (and away from Bruce Smith) 11 out of 13 plays, and Erik Williams buried him on virtually every play. It was sad to watch. Then, on third and goal, Jeff Wright actually gets into the backfield with a clear shot to wrap Emmitt Smith up for a loss, and just ... fails. Epically. Smith tossed him aside like a rag doll and ran in for the score. It should have been 16-13, but instead it was 20-13 and panic set in. The Bills couldn't move the ball, and Kelly eventually forced a pass into triple coverage near mid-field  (while the game was still in reach) and it was of course picked off by James Washington. It was a terrible decision by him. 

 

Anyway, the Bills had a very good plan, but very bad plays by individual players - not bad decisions by coaches - plus a deficiency in talent that eventually manifested itself (as it almost always does) led to the loss.

 

Don't blame Marv for that one. The previous (third) loss was signficantly worse on the coaching front,  and while I could get into the details, I won't.  

 

One other thing: it was outrageous that Washington didn't win MVP. He had two fumble recoveries, a pick, and returned a fumble for a TD.

I see your point.  The third was just ridiculous all the way around.  No team should ever be embarrassed like that in a championship game.

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Chemical said:

 

It doesn’t matter if you don’t fault him. You may as well be saying you’re a flat earther to me at this point. It was a bad trade. He was at fault by definition.

 

It’s something that happened not the end of the world but at least admit the most obvious mistakes for Chrissakes

 

Also: that’s exactly what he did. Wasted a pick and having benjamin on the field was a NEGATIVE value. 

 

Sammy is better than any wr we have had since by a long shot. 

 

The chiefs had hill and kelce but still added him because that’s what real offenses have, weapons. 

If he is at fault then every other GM in the league is at fault for this at one point or another......simple as that

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, Chemical said:

 

 

Sammy is better than any wr we have had since by a long shot. 

 

Sammy by his own admission was not a team player any time he was in Buffalo.  That disqualified him with McD before talent even became an issue.

[3rdand12]

6 hours ago, teef said:

i still don't think the sammy trade was bad.  he's incredibly talented, yet still has yet to show that he can put up any real sort of production.  yet, people keep making excuses for him.  the problem wasn't trading him, the problem was not doing anything sufficient enough to try and fill that hole.  

i concur 

[3rdand12]

1 hour ago, Stank_Nasty said:

I was too young to really get it. 5-9 yrs old..... I fear that if anything like that ever happened now, as an invested fan, it may drive me straight to the looney bin.

I was sincerely traumatized by the 4 SB experience and how they lost the last one.

  stopped watching the -bills.

But now i am a huge fan.
Go Bills !

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

My only wish as a Bills fan is one day I can talk with you guys about their performance in a Superbowl. Losing 4 in a row must have stung somewhat but those years had to be fun, right?

You know when I knew the future Buffalo Bills would be great? It was in 1987 week 12 against Miami on an unusually sunny November day. The Bills won that game 27 to 0 and the Dolphins didn't cross the 50 yard line for the entire first half. The Dolphins with HC Don Shula benched Dan Marino after he went 13 of 28 for 165 yards, 3 INTs. He had a passer rating of 25.7. 

QB Don Strock came in the game and drove them down to the Bills goal line...where they promptly turned the ball over...

 

Earlier that year on Halloween, Bill Polian had made a trade with the LA Rams, Colts in a 10 player deal. To set this up, I was kind of heartbroken to see the Colts draft LBer Cornelius Bennett as I loved watching him tear it up at Bama. The Colts drafted Bennett with the 1987 #2 pick and like John Elway, he didn't want to play for Indy so he remained unsigned.

In that trade the Bills got Biscuit, the Colts got Eric Dickerson, the Rams got a bunch of picks with RB Greg Bell, RB Owen Gill.

 

The Buffalo Bills gave up RB Greg Bell and the Bills 1988 #1 pick, their 1989 #1 pick, 1989 #2 pick.

 

 

The next year in 1988 that Bills defense was #3 in points allowed, #4 in yards allowed. The 88 Bills ended up 12-4 and went to the AFC championship game in Cincy. Think I still have an orange air horn from that game. Those things weren't supposed to be allowed and yet the stadium as filled with them. 

 

My favorite game that year was a low scoring 9-6 slug fest with the NY Jets in a downpour! The Jets at that time were 8-7-1 and the Bills were 10-1. The Bills won that game in overtime with Fred Smerlas blocking a FG. This win gave the Bills the record for the fasted win to the AFC East Championship.

Oh, BTW. That was the "FAN-DEMONIUM"  game in which the Bills fans ran on the field and tore the goal posts down! Most fun in a downpour I've ever had! 

 

 

The next year the Bills ended up 9-7 and still won the AFC East in 1989. They ended up in Cleveland for a wildcard game. Some jackass Browns fan had brought in a diesel air horn along with a huge battery and the noise from it was deafening!  Thurman Thomas had a 1982 Kellen Winslow type performance with 13 receptions for 150 yards, 2 TDs. Browns LBer Clay Matthews stepped in front of a JK pass to end the Bills last drive in that 34-30 loss. Just before that INT, Bills RB Ronnie Harmon missed a catch in the end zone that would have won the game. Man 0 man he never lived that down. 

 

There were some great years before the super bowls too. 

[Cripple Creek]

5 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

There are no elections since 2017 when no one ran for the position.  We tried to leave you on the steps of the fire department but you found your way back.  Since then "Boss of You" has been assigned to the TBD member with the lowest blood alcohol content and cleanest urine.

Who determines cleanest urine?

[GaryPinC]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

My only wish as a Bills fan is one day I can talk with you guys about their performance in a Superbowl. Losing 4 in a row must have stung somewhat but those years had to be fun, right?

It was a ton of fun.  The offense was breathtaking and the defense could make plays that took your breath away.  Anyone that tries to make fun of them losing 4 in a row, I tell them it was a privilege to watch that team go to work during those years.  The whole thing taught me that being a fan isn't just about winning a trophy, they were an amazing experience regardless.

[dave mcbride]

4 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I see your point.  The third was just ridiculous all the way around.  No team should ever be embarrassed like that in a championship game.

... and I give you that Jeff Wright failure play. It was third and 3 to go, not 3rd and goal, but it should have been a two yard loss. If Ted Washington had been there, Smith would have been planted in the ground. Wright was such a weak NT. It's amazing the defense did as well as it did (not that it was great) given the relative void in the center of the d-line. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpC8Z-oGd4c

Edited June 6, 2019 by dave mcbride