John Warrow’s High Praise For Beane & McDermott Regime

[oldmanfan]

I wish we'd have kept Sammy.  That said he's not exactly setting the league on fire since the trade.

[SoTier]

 

6 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

Regarding "if that's not your game"......ponder this:

 

If Harvard grad Ryan Fitzpatrick is such a smart person why hasn't he changed his game?

 

I would posit that the reason is because he ENJOYS playing the gunslinging style he plays and doesn't think he'd enjoy playing it any other way.

 

With his life prospects beyond the NFL........ he's not going to turn into "captain checkdown" for anyone.

 

And I'm not even saying it's entirely his choice...........the heart wants what it wants and in the split second environment of the pocket that part of his highly trained brain says the reward is worth the risk.   Ball pushed downfield into traffic.....dopamine released.

 

I'd also suggest that Tyrod Taylor doesn't ENJOY checking the ball down............I think he plays the game fearfully because he is afraid of losing his job........to me that's been reflected in some of his answers to questions about playing the position.

 

So "your game" isn't necessarily the only style you CAN play but it may be the only style you SHOULD or WILL play.

 

 

The history of the NFL is littered with QBs with tremendous physical talent who busted because they lacked the right psychological make up to enable them to succeed.   JP Losman always comes to mind when I think of a QB with great talent who just couldn't make the right play under pressure.  I think your description of why Fitzpatrick always ends up throwing INTs in key situations is perfect.  While Nate Peterman doesn't fit the scenario of having "tremendous physical talent" he has enough physical talent that he probably could have a productive career as an NFL backup QB if only he could keep himself from getting baited into trying to throw passes he can't possibly complete except to a defender in game action.  I'm convinced that's why Peterman can look so great in practice and even look decent in preseason games but comes apart in regular season games.

 

Allen doesn't seem to be saddled with the bad decision making that derailed Losman or that derails Fitzpatrick and Peterman but it's entirely possible -- very likely in fact -- that if or how well Allen can change/overcome his own psychological limitations will impact his success in the NFL.  Being physically able to throw accurate short passes is likely not one of Allen's problems, but being able to consistently throw short when his natural inclination is to chuck it downfield may very well be a serious problem for him.  Every young QB faces the same issue of overcoming psychological inclinations, so it's not something unique to Allen.   The ultimate "intrangible" -- psychological limitations/inclinations -- is what makes finding franchise QBs so difficult.

[GaryPinC]

For me, you can debate statistics and throwing styles all day, what comes down to a franchise quarterback is playing an effective, diverse enough throwing game to keep the defense guessing and having the sense when to take risks for a big play.  Even in his best year, I didn't feel like Tyrod had the sense to do this with the game on the line and it never improved.  Once he started losing accuracy on his long ball (2017) there were even less big plays from him and it really was going downhill before Cleveland condemned his potential as a starter last season.  TT also wasn't good at throwing people open, but did get better at back shoulder throws and hitting people in stride in tight coverage in shorter throws.  But he still seemed to shy away from tight coverage mid range.

 

I have hope with Allen because he certainly is not afraid to stick a ball in to tight coverage and do it successfully.  He showed me he will throw people open and I think he has that franchise QB sense when he needs to make a big play.  He definitely needs to improve his decision making and accuracy for the short game and that'll help open up his long chances. He missed a lot of throws last year but also had impressive accuracy at times.  I'm willing to believe his rawness accounted for the inconsistency.   So I'm pretty optimistic, he shouldn't just be a long thrower, and I expect him to diversify this season.  You can't be a one trick pony as a franchise QB. 

 

It's true many QB's can only change their game so much and my biggest worry about Allen coming in.  But he has so much talent and desire to win I came away feeling he can make enough changes to be that guy.  It'll be fun to watch this season.

 

No excuses about the game winner to Clay vs the Dolphins, the ball hit Clay above the waist 3 yards in the endzone.  He should have caught it.

[SoTier]

11 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I wish we'd have kept Sammy.  That said he's not exactly setting the league on fire since the trade.

 

Watkins' two teams since he was traded were loaded at WR, so he was never his QB's favorite target.  In LA, Cooper Kupp and Robert Woods were already established as Goff's go-to guys before Watkins joined the team.   In KC, Tyreek Hill was already established as the Chiefs' #1 WR.   Currently Hill's status is in limbo.  If Hill is suspended for some or all of the season, Watkins will likely become Mahomes' primary target, and he could very well "set the league on fire" in 2019.

[teef]

i still don't think the sammy trade was bad.  he's incredibly talented, yet still has yet to show that he can put up any real sort of production.  yet, people keep making excuses for him.  the problem wasn't trading him, the problem was not doing anything sufficient enough to try and fill that hole.  

[fergie's ire]

7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

 

If Harvard grad Ryan Fitzpatrick is such a smart person why hasn't he changed his game?

 

 

 

Actually, he did.  Think about who Fitzpatrick is.  He's smart, without a great arm.  He's the type of guy you would expect to be a captain checkdown game manager.  And that's what he was when he came into the league.  I remember an article when Fitzpatrick credited being on the scout team with creating a change in philosophy.  He said that in practice he was supposed to be Brett Favre...so he would make Brett Favre (risky, tight window) throws....and was surprised to find he would complete many of them...so he decided he could be a risk taker and take those shots in the game.  It was this CHANGE in philosophy that Fitzpatrick credited for his ability to transform from a lifetime backup to a starting quarterback for the Bills.

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

20 hours ago, eball said:

 

Not even close.  The Bills gave up a low 3rd (#85) and 7th for a proven WR with production.  Benjamin obviously didn't pan out but it wasn't a crazy trade.

 

 

You have no credibility after saying this. 

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

16 hours ago, eball said:

 

If every other NFL GM and HC was scrutinized and nitpicked to death the way you have done to Beane and McD, I'm sure you'd find "a TON of errors" there as well.  It's a business in which the GM "hopes" to be right 50% of the time.  And if you're calling Josh Allen the beacon of hope, you could at least give Beane credit for maneuvering to get him.

 

Wahhhhh stop saying mean stuff about my team!

Edited June 6, 2019 by Chemical

[Gugny]

27 minutes ago, teef said:

i still don't think the sammy trade was bad.  he's incredibly talented, yet still has yet to show that he can put up any real sort of production.  yet, people keep making excuses for him.  the problem wasn't trading him, the problem was not doing anything sufficient enough to try and fill that hole.  

 

I agree.  I never had a problem with the trade.  They secured, in my opinion, a supremely talented WR.  The problem ended up being that he was a piss poor teammate who, in his three years as a Bill, played 16, 13 and 8 games/season.

 

I don't recall any pre-draft concerns about attitude and work ethic - which is why I've never had a problem with the trade..  If he wasn't such a jerk, he could have been a legitimate top WR in the league and he'd still be a Bill.  Unfortunately, Sam was a legend in his own mind before he proved a damn thing.

[K-9]

1 hour ago, thebandit27 said:

 

There are 2 things about it that bother me:

 

1) the Bills could still have his rights today, as he'd be in year 1 of the franchise tag (or possibly even transition tagged)

 

2) he'd still be, far and away, the team's best WR today

I love Sammy as a wideout. Watched every college game he played. He was the best prospect coming out and I had no problems with the trade to move up and get him. 

 

But injuries have derailed him. And I think that, if we had kept him, given our sorry state on offense at the time,  he would have been even worse than the very pedestrian receiver he's been in LA and KC even while playing in superior systems, with superior coaches, and far superior QBs. 

[thebandit27]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

I love Sammy as a wideout. Watched every college game he played. He was the best prospect coming out and I had no problems with the trade to move up and get him. 

 

But injuries have derailed him. And I think that, if we had kept him, given our sorry state on offense at the time,  he would have been even worse than the very pedestrian receiver he's been in LA and KC even while playing in superior systems, with superior coaches, and far superior QBs. 

 

That's a fairly likely scenario.

 

I just don't see the logic in trading him away only to turn around and trade 2 picks for Benjamin.

 

If the idea was simply to accumulate picks for the pursuit of QB1, so be it. Trading for Benjamin flew in the face of that.

 

Oh well, what's done is done. Time to focus on the possibly-better-than-2014 class of WRs coming up next April.

[oldmanfan]

59 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Watkins' two teams since he was traded were loaded at WR, so he was never his QB's favorite target.  In LA, Cooper Kupp and Robert Woods were already established as Goff's go-to guys before Watkins joined the team.   In KC, Tyreek Hill was already established as the Chiefs' #1 WR.   Currently Hill's status is in limbo.  If Hill is suspended for some or all of the season, Watkins will likely become Mahomes' primary target, and he could very well "set the league on fire" in 2019.

Or not.  As I said I wish we would have kept him, and we'll see how he does this season.  However, your response pretty much summarizes some of the back and forth going on in this thread.  It seems you want Sammy to succeed this year because that will give you an opportunity to criticize the current regime.  Much like in many of your posts you blast the current ownership for sins committed under Ralph's ownership.

 

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by oldmanfan

[Bill from NYC]

12 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

The chances are that in order for the 2019 Bills offense to be successful it will be all about running the ball and big plays.

 

I have felt this way every season since the "glory years." This is the exact reason I am just so happy about Ford. If he is as good as I hope he is, he will make a HUGE impact, even (if not especially) at RG!

 

As you and all who attend the games know, weather can have a huge impact in Orchard park. I was at a game and saw Drew Bledsoe release a pass and the wind blew it backwards. I'm not talking about Trent Edwards now.  Running is a necessity and power running (because of the smaller defenses) is now VERY important imho.

 

Gore and Yeldon will gain considerable yards behind a powerful right side, especially with Allen being such a threat to go deep to Foster.

 

I still think there are a couple of missing pieces but this team might be good and exciting in 2019.

[K-9]

49 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Watkins' two teams since he was traded were loaded at WR, so he was never his QB's favorite target.  In LA, Cooper Kupp and Robert Woods were already established as Goff's go-to guys before Watkins joined the team.   In KC, Tyreek Hill was already established as the Chiefs' #1 WR.   Currently Hill's status is in limbo.  If Hill is suspended for some or all of the season, Watkins will likely become Mahomes' primary target, and he could very well "set the league on fire" in 2019.

Sammy was traded to the Rams two weeks into training camp. So you're saying Kupp and Woods had already established themselves as "go-to" guys based on what? Two weeks of camp, minicamp, and OTAs? With a new coach and an entirely new system? I don't buy that for a second. 

 

I'd like nothing more than to see Sammy light it up when he gets back. But I'm not convinced he's ever going to be 100% healthy again. This is evident to me when I watch him come out of his breaks; he simply lacks the same explosion he possessed previously because of his foot injuries. 

[Bill from NYC]

13 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I love Sammy as a wideout. Watched every college game he played. He was the best prospect coming out and I had no problems with the trade to move up and get him. 

 

I would have felt the same way if we had a quarterback. Thankfully there are receivers coming out in 2020 who look like they can be excellent players.

[K-9]

10 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

That's a fairly likely scenario.

 

I just don't see the logic in trading him away only to turn around and trade 2 picks for Benjamin.

 

If the idea was simply to accumulate picks for the pursuit of QB1, so be it. Trading for Benjamin flew in the face of that.

 

Oh well, what's done is done. Time to focus on the possibly-better-than-2014 class of WRs coming up next April.

Absolutely. Desperation isn't a solid footing for good football decisions. But they were and it bit them in the ass. And while KB's own unprofessional attitude is the main reason for his failure here, Beane owns that deal, regardless. 

[teef]

20 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I agree.  I never had a problem with the trade.  They secured, in my opinion, a supremely talented WR.  The problem ended up being that he was a piss poor teammate who, in his three years as a Bill, played 16, 13 and 8 games/season.

 

I don't recall any pre-draft concerns about attitude and work ethic - which is why I've never had a problem with the trade..  If he wasn't such a jerk, he could have been a legitimate top WR in the league and he'd still be a Bill.  Unfortunately, Sam was a legend in his own mind before he proved a damn thing.

i honestly don't have a problem with who he was as a teammate or his comments.  my problem was that he just wasn't productive considering his talent level.  he's on this third team, two of which have had top flight qbs, and he still hasn't produced to this potential.  could this year be his big numbers year?  hopefully for him, but there just can't be any more excuses.  posters on here who refuse to hear or make excuses for anyone on the bills, still defend sammy for some reason.  the chiefs are paying 16 mill a year for a guy that can't out produce zay jones.  it's gross.

[K-9]

2 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I would have felt the same way if we had a quarterback. Thankfully there are receivers coming out in 2020 who look like they can be excellent players.

Well, the Bills thought they had their QB at the time. We all know how that turned out, but EJ going into his second year was their guy, regardless. It was understandable why they wanted to get the best receiving prospect coming out to help his development. It didn't work out, far from it, but I don't want a GM who doubts himself and won't make deals based on "it might not work out." Can't run a team being afraid. 

[Bill from NYC]

2 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Well, the Bills thought they had their QB at the time. We all know how that turned out, but EJ going into his second year was their guy, regardless. It was understandable why they wanted to get the best receiving prospect coming out to help his development. It didn't work out, far from it, but I don't want a GM who doubts himself and won't make deals based on "it might not work out." Can't run a team being afraid. 

Oh I see your point, but the worst GM (to me) is one who gives away the store with poor results. AKA Whaley.

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by Bill from NYC

[Coach Tuesday]

2 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

There are 2 things about it that bother me:

 

1) the Bills could still have his rights today, as he'd be in year 1 of the franchise tag (or possibly even transition tagged)

 

2) he'd still be, far and away, the team's best WR today

 

What about the fact that, as a direct result of that trade, they spent picks and money on Kelvin Benjamin and Corey Coleman (who got like $4 from Terry P. for about 2 weeks of preseason work)?