K-9 Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 37 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: I'll pick your post here to reply to all related to this subject. I can also see that the 2017 QB draft questions are a point of contention on the board. I tend to agree that McDermott as a new HC and with some probable backing by the Pegula's held off on QB until Beane came in. Your reply about TT's future role is valid but I think even goes further than just him. Marcel, Sammy, Gilmore and others were also part of it. The argument could be made that some "babies" got thrown out with the bath water as other keep posting about BUT the fact is (like you have insinuated) that it was just casualties of the decision of total rebuild v reload. The thing that get's me is the assumption of many that this path with the current GM/HC could be like all the others in the last 20 years. I just see it being handled in a much more logical and methodical method over the previous regimes. The result could be the same BUT the way it's being done is new IMO. I can't wait for this season to see how it works out! I appreciate your larger point, but all those babies getting tossed with the bath water are superfluous given who the QB was at the time. TT is not good enough to have taken those babies to the promised land. And I contend that Watson and Mahomes, great as they are, would not have come close to the same success in Buffalo as quickly, either. I get why people would like to think so, but their respective experiences occurred under completely different circumstances, with different coaches, and different supporting casts. But it’s easy to imagine they’d have thrived as well here, so I get why people make the argument. Until McBeane deliver on the strategy undertaken, they will have to suffer comparisons to previous regimes, etc. Goes with the territory. Lucky for us, they aren’t afraid of the challenge.
Bill from NYC Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 7 minutes ago, K-9 said: I look forward to reading all those posts of yours prior to the ‘17 free agency and draft periods outlining the precise strategy you find so easy to do in hindsight. K-9, can anybody possibly defend passing on 2 highly skilled and accomplished quarterbacks and drafting a first round corner? The team was starving for a QB. And it doesn't matter that White is "good." So was Gilmore but we had no quarterback!!! 2 1
GunnerBill Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 1 hour ago, HappyDays said: Blame Pegula if you want. We didn't hire the next GM until after that draft. So who picks the QB, the defensive coach coming from a team that wasn't scouting QBs? There was no chance we were taking a QB that year. They certainly weren't going to go off of the scouting done by the lame duck GM and scouting staff. They had to cobble that draft together from Carolina's draft board. It's a miracle it went as well as it did. The eye was always on 2018 for drafting a QB, and if Allen turns out to be good the first 2 years won't mean a thing. I am not "blaming" anyone. All I am saying is fans who try and suggest that in 2017 the Bills' ONLY option was a tear down and total rebuild are rewriting history. As are those who say it was tear down or Tyrod. It just isn't true. I am not as critical of the decision to go for the tear down and rebuild as Badol and I am higher on McDermott and Beane than he is and I feel pretty good about where the Bills are and their prospects in 2019 and beyond. All I am saying is it was absolutely not the only route. The roster Rex had was talented but dreadfully coached and hamstrung by below average Quarterback play and went .500 over 3 seasons. A 'reload' was absolutely an option for them. I didn't mind the tear down and rebuild approach. And I still think it can bear fruit - but if it doesn't it cannot be defended with the "well it was the only option" argument. Because, apart from anything else, it just isn't true. 1
ColoradoBills Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said: K-9, can anybody possibly defend passing on 2 highly skilled and accomplished quarterbacks and drafting a first round corner? The team was starving for a QB. And it doesn't matter that White is "good." So was Gilmore but we had no quarterback!!! Whaley was the GM and by all evidence he was still in the TT corner. I actually think that was his demise.
K-9 Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 1 hour ago, GunnerBill said: No I see no regression from Tyrod. He was not very good. I am not even saying a reload would have worked. Equally we don't know whether the rebuild will either though I like where we are currently at. But they did have talent. They were a .500 football team over a 3 year stint. Reloading was an option. Trying to deny it is foolish. They might have tried it got Sammy injured immediately or something like that and then ended up regretting it. Doesn't mean it was never an option. Doesn’t the concept of “it was not the only way” apply to most decisions? Especially where team sports management is concerned? Of course there were other options and strategies. Goes without saying. They chose this path. Why some, not you specifically, choose to wallow in it being the wrong choice when it hasn’t been determined yet, simply because they don’t agree with it, is beyond me. Bills management had a choice. So do the fans.
Royale with Cheese Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 14 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Dude, you've gotten so dark with the dehumanizing labels. WTH you weren't even in the discussion but you dropped the white N word on it. I thought @Royale with Cheese returning would get you out of your dark place but I guess not. I am a bright light. 1
K-9 Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 5 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said: K-9, can anybody possibly defend passing on 2 highly skilled and accomplished quarterbacks and drafting a first round corner? The team was starving for a QB. And it doesn't matter that White is "good." So was Gilmore but we had no quarterback!!! I don’t think they have to defend it if they honestly felt that better options were going to be available in 2018. Especially against arguments based on hindsight for the most part. Hindsight is a luxury they can’t have. If you were one of the few pounding the table for Mahomes or Watson BEFORE that draft, more power to you.
eball Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said: The Pegula's could also have actually tried to create some ALSO much craved continuity and retained Anthony Lynn...........who lead the Bills to their best offensive season in 25 years. He would have brought Gus Bradley........the original DC of the best defense of the 2000's in Seattle............who would have re-installed a 4-3 like McDermott but one that would have IMO been a better fit for guys like Gilmore and Darby........thus not necessitating giving them up for what amounted to Harrison Phillips. The bottom line is that the choices that were made with regard to the HC hire and not drafting a QB when everyone knew it should be the organization's top priority don't look good in retrospect. The Chargers took Lynn and have been a rousing success amid their organizational turmoil.... a legit SB contender. The Chiefs took Mahomes and he threw FIFTY TD pass(!) and were the best team in the AFC for most of last year. Your guy Watson had a historic start to his rookie year and is already a tremendous player........without him Houston probably has changed coaches and is in re-build mode instead of building on a talented roster. The Bills meanwhile, have been greatly outscored by opponents the past two seasons and have been pretty fortunate just to have the same record as they had under Rex. There have been some tremendous low points. The worst defensive 3 game stretch in team history. Peterman. A ton of blowout losses last year. Now hopefully that changes but as it stands they certainly don't look smart for those decisions yet. I just don't think 2017 was viewed as a franchise-changing draft at the QB position, regardless of what Mahomes and Watson have done. I remember reading lots of pre-draft stuff both for and against those two players, and there was certainly no consensus on them as "can't miss" franchise guys. I mean, after Trubisky at #2 they went #10 and #12 -- and the next guy drafted at the position wasn't until #52. It's easy to see how McD was looking ahead to 2018 to draft his QB, and thought he could make do with Tyrod for a season (which he did, and they made the playoffs). I know you think this is crazy but I'm still not sold on Lynn. Is it difficult to walk into a HC job when a likely HOFer is still playing QB for your team? They looked downright awful in the biggest game of his coaching career last January. As I've indicated many times, the "there were a lot of blowouts" characterization of the last two seasons is not indicative of how the Bills played; it's indicative of the dearth of offensive talent, which is systematically being addressed. The Peterman thing is and always will be on McD. None of us understand it. But what's done is done. I know you probably read and listen to a lot of NFL stuff -- McD is almost universally praised as a great hire by Buffalo. It seems odd that you continue to act as though that was a questionable decision by the Pegulas. 1
Bill from NYC Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 Just now, K-9 said: I don’t think they have to defend it if they honestly felt that better options were going to be available in 2018. Especially against arguments based on hindsight for the most part. Hindsight is a luxury they can’t have. If you were one of the few pounding the table for Mahomes or Watson BEFORE that draft, more power to you. I liked Watson because I saw him play several games. I cannot honestly say that I knew much about Mahomes but I am not paid the big bucks to control the roster of an NFL Team. 1
HappyDays Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 10 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said: K-9, can anybody possibly defend passing on 2 highly skilled and accomplished quarterbacks and drafting a first round corner? The team was starving for a QB. And it doesn't matter that White is "good." So was Gilmore but we had no quarterback!!! Bill what information were they going to use to draft a QB? GMs don't just read scouting reports like us fans do. They have to meet with the prospect. They have to interview college coaches, high school coaches, people that know him personally. McDermott took over 3 months before that draft. How was he ever going to draft a QB in the 1st round with no information to go off of? It was never going to happen.
K-9 Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 3 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said: I liked Watson because I saw him play several games. I cannot honestly say that I knew much about Mahomes but I am not paid the big bucks to control the roster of an NFL Team. I liked him, too. He’s a winner. Although I understood the concerns about him. To your point about controlling the roster, we are all in the same boat. Which is why it’s kind of futile for some to act like they ARE paid to shape and control NFL rosters.
thebandit27 Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 Just now, K-9 said: I liked him, too. He’s a winner. Although I understood the concerns about him. To your point about controlling the roster, we are all in the same boat. Which is why it’s kind of futile for some to act like they ARE paid to shape and control NFL rosters. Okay, okay, I'll lay off 1
K-9 Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 1 minute ago, thebandit27 said: Okay, okay, I'll lay off Ironically, you may be one of the few who could actually pull it off. If you hired the right people around you, that is!
GunnerBill Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Magox said: They weren't going to draft a QB with their 1st round draft choice with a lame duck GM who had previously struck out on his previous 1st round selected QB. The second point that I'd like to make with this silly talk of rebuild vs retool. These are terms that fans and NFL pundits use. They don't go into it thinking "I'm in charge now, and I'm going to get rid of everyone just so that I can call it a rebuild and buy myself some breathing space and time to build a team the way I see fit". They analyze every single player on the team and they look at a number of considerations to determine whether or not they are a fit for what they are trying to do. They look at whether or not they believe them to be a scheme fit, if they get injured often, intangibles such as leadership and whether they are a "process" type of guy, their measurables, past and recent production, if they believe they could replace what that player could deliver at a lower or comparable cost, their valuation of that players position, if they are still developing and if they are on the up or downswing of their careers, need for that particular position, if they believe they want to be a Bill and a whole host of considerations. Then once they look at all those considerations they measure that along side of their cap hit and make a determination if that player is a fit for the type of team they want to build. Whether you call it a "retool" or a "rebuild" the same considerations are still there for their final determination. They look at the player, the cap hit and if both of those fit into what they are trying to do as an organization they make the determination. That's it. For me it was clear, they didn't like the makeup of the team that they inherited. That's not to say they didn't believe there was some quality talent that they decided to part ways with just that when all things were considered, they chose to go with a different route. Just like any FO, sometimes you strike out on some positions. But the idea that they just scrapped players just so that they could justify what fans and pundits call a "rebuild" is patently absurd. That's just not how decisions are made. They view each player evaluation and decision on it's own merits, not through the lens of making player personnel decisions just for the purpose of fitting into a larger "rebuild" strategy. I use those recognised media terms so that people understand what I am on about. But don't get hung up on the terminology. The point - and your last para admits it - is it was a CHOICE. They came in and decided they preferred to try and completely reshape the roster in double quick time. I think the only players on the team now who were here under Rex are Lawson, Lorax, Hughes and McCoy. Even by the NFL standard that is a lightening fast overhaul. You can call it what you want.... tear down, rebuild, reload, refresh.... it doesn't matter. They chose to try and totally reshape this roster quickly rather than ride with the talent they inherited and try to build on it and make changes gradually. I repeat for about the 25th time... I don't even disagree with their choice. I just disagree with fans who try to represent it as anything other than a choice. Edited June 3, 2019 by GunnerBill 1
K-9 Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 11 minutes ago, eball said: I just don't think 2017 was viewed as a franchise-changing draft at the QB position, regardless of what Mahomes and Watson have done. I remember reading lots of pre-draft stuff both for and against those two players, and there was certainly no consensus on them as "can't miss" franchise guys. I mean, after Trubisky at #2 they went #10 and #12 -- and the next guy drafted at the position wasn't until #52. It's easy to see how McD was looking ahead to 2018 to draft his QB, and thought he could make do with Tyrod for a season (which he did, and they made the playoffs). I know you think this is crazy but I'm still not sold on Lynn. Is it difficult to walk into a HC job when a likely HOFer is still playing QB for your team? They looked downright awful in the biggest game of his coaching career last January. As I've indicated many times, the "there were a lot of blowouts" characterization of the last two seasons is not indicative of how the Bills played; it's indicative of the dearth of offensive talent, which is systematically being addressed. The Peterman thing is and always will be on McD. None of us understand it. But what's done is done. I know you probably read and listen to a lot of NFL stuff -- McD is almost universally praised as a great hire by Buffalo. It seems odd that you continue to act as though that was a questionable decision by the Pegulas. Good take. And yep, Peterman is on McD. He owns that forever.
teef Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 31 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Dude, you've gotten so dark with the dehumanizing labels. WTH you weren't even in the discussion but you dropped the white N word on it. I thought @Royale with Cheese returning would get you out of your dark place but I guess not. this is some middle school level drama right here. even includes the emoji. you have one of those emoji poop pillows on your bed...don't you? 2
Bill from NYC Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, HappyDays said: How was he ever going to draft a QB in the 1st round with no information to go off of? It was never going to happen. I will answer you and I am NOT, repeat NOT being snide. He could have watched tapes of Watson playing against a GREAT Alabama teams in the Championship Games and listened to Dabo Swinney talk about him. That's what you and I did and we were correct. I know I wouldn't have passed on Watson for a corner and would bet money that you wouldn't have either. Edited June 3, 2019 by Bill from NYC
GunnerBill Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 1 minute ago, Bill from NYC said: I will answer you and I am NOT, repeat NOT being snide. He could have watched tapes of Watson playing against a GREAT Alabama teams in the Championship Games and listed to Dabo Swinney talk about him. That's what you and I did and we were correct. I know I wouldn't have passed on Watson for a corner and would bet money that you wouldn't have either. Actually Happy Days didn't like Watson coming out.
Royale with Cheese Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 Just now, GunnerBill said: Actually Happy Days didn't like Watson coming out. I'm gonna one up you....I thought Mahomes was going to be terrible. I thought KC was going 6-10 last year and would decline on offense after Alex Smith left.
Magox Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Actually Happy Days didn't like Watson coming out. I wasn't enamored with him either. I had Trubisky as my #1 early on up until about a month before the draft and sort of just fell in love with Mahomes potential. Trubisky I liked very very early on before anyone was talking about him because I'm a Carolina fan and every time I saw him play, he showed great mobility, good poise, accuracy and a decent arm. Watson I thought would have problems processing the field. Even though he had an impressive rookie campaign the coaches did a great job with reducing the field of vision for him and he performed a lot better than I had expected. I still believe that when it is all said and done, the draft board that I had will be correct that Mahomes will have the best career out of the three, followed by Trubisky and then Watson.
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