K-9 Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 2 hours ago, GunnerBill said: Enjoying the journey is the best part of it. Winning is great - it is. But finally succeeding after the struggle that is always special. I said it here in the aftermath of the Dalton miracle - don't hate the drought. You don't get the ecstasy of the Dalton miracle without the drought. It was part of the journey. That is what following sports teams is. It is highs and lows. As fans it is better if you acknowledge both rather than always seeking a positive spin to pretend the lows don't exist. I promise everyone once you properly acknowledge the lows then you will enjoy the highs more. Outstanding. Applies to everything in life, too. Reminds me of several Native American prayers that, to paraphrase, thank the great spirits for their struggles.
K-9 Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: Well you went to all this trouble.........at least give us your inside-the-building take on the hierarchy in March of 1985. Was it like this then?: 1. Pollom 2. Stephenson 3. Polian Inarguably(?) the greatest draft class in team history(2 HOF'ers plus Reich) and traded a pick that they knew was going to be used to select a potential franchise QB for a tremendous CB prospect whose career was tragically cut short.........and it all happened with the GM on the sideline.........gotta' be some interesting stories about how that went down. When it came to approval for trades? Who to “lobby” not to trade premium draft picks? Detroit. Period. Who Detroit felt the most affection and affinity for? Kay. Hands down. I think this fills in your latest rabbit hole. Stick to football takes. You know the game and you’re generally good with those. Off the field stuff? Not so much. 1
ColoradoBills Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 3 hours ago, SoTier said: The choice to tear down and rebuild was a choice made by McDermott and Beane, so they don't get a pass for that decision. Most successful teams in the salary cap era choose to retool when they have a decently talented roster and bring in a new HC ... which was the Bills in 2017. I agree that the Bills need to improve significantly this year. I would think you have to add Terry and Kim Pegula to that. They have been through the "retool thing" in 2 leagues and tried quite a few GM/HC combo's to improve. I'm pretty sure they bought off on this plan. Whether fans agree or disagree on how the Bills chose to do it this time really doesn't matter any more. Decisions were made and it's now only about how well or how poorly the plan is going forward. With the exceptions of the 1st half of last year which seemed pretty frazzled the plan seems to have a rational trajectory. This year will tell if it is working or not. 1
K-9 Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 54 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: I would think you have to add Terry and Kim Pegula to that. They have been through the "retool thing" in 2 leagues and tried quite a few GM/HC combo's to improve. I'm pretty sure they bought off on this plan. Whether fans agree or disagree on how the Bills chose to do it this time really doesn't matter any more. Decisions were made and it's now only about how well or how poorly the plan is going forward. With the exceptions of the 1st half of last year which seemed pretty frazzled the plan seems to have a rational trajectory. This year will tell if it is working or not. Per the bold text, if a fan disagrees with the strategy to tear it down, they are essentially saying we could have continued to progress deeper into playoff runs with Tyrod Taylor as our QB. I submit that is absolutely ridiculous. I might be persuaded to to change my opinion on the tear down if someone could show me how we were going to obtain draft assets to use as capital to be in a position to trade up and snag a top QB prospect in one of the QB richest drafts in a long time without trading some decent players like Sammy and Cordy. We snagged our QB, obtained other good talent in the process, and went from cap hell to cap advantaged. All in a couple years. Now, people will certainly point out that if they don’t show progress then it was all for not. Well, news flash! That’s always the case, anyway, whether you’re standing pat or blowing it up. 1 1
GunnerBill Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, K-9 said: Per the bold text, if a fan disagrees with the strategy to tear it down, they are essentially saying we could have continued to progress deeper into playoff runs with Tyrod Taylor as our QB. I submit that is absolutely ridiculous. I might be persuaded to to change my opinion on the tear down if someone could show me how we were going to obtain draft assets to use as capital to be in a position to trade up and snag a top QB prospect in one of the QB richest drafts in a long time without trading some decent players like Sammy and Cordy. We snagged our QB, obtained other good talent in the process, and went from cap hell to cap advantaged. All in a couple years. Now, people will certainly point out that if they don’t show progress then it was all for not. Well, news flash! That’s always the case, anyway, whether you’re standing pat or blowing it up. Well we could have simply not taken up (or more accurately renegotiated and then taken up which is what we actually did) Tyrod's option in 2017 and selected Watson or Mahomes that year. That was what I was advocating at the time. You could have used the saved money to retain Gilmore too if you wanted to. Again - I actually largely support the approach they took. I understand it and I think it was a sensible approach and to be honest I was a little fed up with the constant "reloads" and was probably ready as a fan for a total "rebuild." But it was a choice. And you didn't have to want to keep Tyrod to go the other route. They could have reloaded they could have gone for the rebuild which they eventually went with. If it works they will get praised if it doesn't people will say "they should have reloaded instead." That is always the case everywhere. Ultimately it is a result driven business and they will be judged by Ws and Ls. 1
eball Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 6 minutes ago, K-9 said: Per the bold text, if a fan disagrees with the strategy to tear it down, they are essentially saying we could have continued to progress deeper into playoff runs with Tyrod Taylor as our QB. I submit that is absolutely ridiculous. I might be persuaded to to change my opinion on the tear down if someone could show me how we were going to obtain draft assets to use as capital to be in a position to trade up and snag a top QB prospect in one of the QB richest drafts in a long time without trading some decent players like Sammy and Cordy. We snagged our QB, obtained other good talent in the process, and went from cap hell to cap advantaged. All in a couple years. Now, people will certainly point out that if they don’t show progress then it was all for not. Well, news flash! That’s always the case, anyway, whether you’re standing pat or blowing it up. Their argument will always be that the new coach/GM could/should have drafted Mahomes or Watson in 2017.
K-9 Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Well we could have simply not taken up (or more accurately renegotiated and then taken up which is what we actually did) Tyrod's option in 2017 and selected Watson or Mahomes that year. That was what I was advocating at the time. You could have used the saved money to retain Gilmore too if you wanted to. Again - I actually largely support the approach they took. I understand it and I think it was a sensible approach and to be honest I was a little fed up with the constant "reloads" and was probably ready as a fan for a total "rebuild." But it was a choice. And you didn't have to want to keep Tyrod to go the other route. They could have reloaded they could have gone for the rebuild which they eventually went with. If it works they will get praised if it doesn't people will say "they should have reloaded instead." That is always the case everywhere. Ultimately it is a result driven business and they will be judged by Ws and Ls. That would have required McDermott/Whaley being on board with Mahomes as a can’t miss prospect. They weren’t. Hindsight shows they are wrong, but we don’t have the luxury of hindsight when making some decisions. I suspect McDermott took one look at Gilmore going into self preservation mode and/or pointing fingers at teammates as a wideout pranced into the end zone to know he didn’t want him. And Gilmore was only gonna stay if we grossly overpaid. Glad we didn’t. But I don’t want to re-litigate that whole situation.
K-9 Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, eball said: Their argument will always be that the new coach/GM could/should have drafted Mahomes or Watson in 2017. True. And given how Mahomes turned out his second year, it’s understandable, regardless of the hindsight needed to bolster that position. There were some around here pounding the table for him at the time, but not many. I think McDermott and then Bean had their sights set on the 2018 QB class the entire time and they were hell bent on executing a plan to snag one. Also, does Mahomes have the same early success in Buffalo as opposed to KC? Without the wizardry of Reid and the stable of superior receiving threats? That’s one helluvan extrapolation imo. Edited June 3, 2019 by K-9
GunnerBill Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, K-9 said: That would have required McDermott/Whaley being on board with Mahomes as a can’t miss prospect. They weren’t. Hindsight shows they are wrong, but we don’t have the luxury of hindsight when making some decisions. I suspect McDermott took one look at Gilmore going into self preservation mode and/or pointing fingers at teammates as a wideout pranced into the end zone to know he didn’t want him. And Gilmore was only gonna stay if we grossly overpaid. Glad we didn’t. But I don’t want to re-litigate that whole situation. And not wanting to re-litigate the situation is fine. As is saying we don't have hindsight at the time. But you said "if a fan disagrees with the strategy to tear it down, they are essentially saying we could have continued to progress deeper into playoff runs with Tyrod Taylor as our QB." I just don't think that is true. We could have retained the bulk of a .500 roster, upgraded at QB with one of the two very talented guys who were sitting there at 10 for us and tried to make a run. I don't have an issue with the choice they made. But it was a choice and there was another way that didn't involve retaining Tyrod. Even if McDermott didn't like Mahomes or Watson enough to do that it still makes it a choice. Rebuild was one route to go to try and have success. It was a route I quite liked. But it was NOT that or keep Tyrod. There were other options that for whatever reason the Bills rejected. 2
Rico Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 20 minutes ago, eball said: Their argument will always be that the new coach/GM could/should have drafted Mahomes or Watson in 2017. That argument will be null and void though once Josh proves he’s better than them. 1
GunnerBill Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 21 minutes ago, eball said: Their argument will always be that the new coach/GM could/should have drafted Mahomes or Watson in 2017. Not should. But definitely could. I support the total rebuild. I don't accept and will never accept it was the only way.
eball Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, K-9 said: True. And given how Mahomes turned out his second year, it’s understandable, regardless of the hindsight needed to bolster that position. There were some around here pounding the table for him at the time, but not many. I think McDermott and then Bean had their sights set on the 2018 QB class the entire time and they were hell bent on executing a plan to snag one. Also, does Mahomes have the same early success in Buffalo as opposed to KC? Without the wizardry of Reid and the stable of superior receiving threats? That’s one helluvan extrapolation imo. I think they could have gone either way. But knowing McD the way we now think we do, I can understand from his perspective why he wanted to come in and change the culture first. I dunno, one could argue it's a small miracle Allen played as well as he did last year, what with the crappy QB room to start the season and an old WR coach as his QB coach. The bottom line, at least for me, is that I don't think we've endured two years of "suffering" under McD the way some make it seem, and I'm really excited about the prospects moving forward. 1
K-9 Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 Just now, GunnerBill said: And not wanting to re-litigate the situation is fine. As is saying we don't have hindsight at the time. But you said "if a fan disagrees with the strategy to tear it down, they are essentially saying we could have continued to progress deeper into playoff runs with Tyrod Taylor as our QB." I just don't think that is true. We could have retained the bulk of a .500 roster, upgraded at QB with one of the two very talented guys who were sitting there at 10 for us and tried to make a run. I don't have an issue with the choice they made. But it was a choice and there was another way that didn't involve retaining Tyrod. Even if McDermott didn't like Mahomes or Watson enough to do that it still makes it a choice. Rebuild was one route to go to try and have success. It was a route I quite liked. But it was NOT that or keep Tyrod. There were other options that for whatever reason the Bills rejected. Yes. And I’ll stand by that. Who else was gonna take us there if not TT? Rookies like Mahomes or Watson? Do you honestly not see a regression there in the short term, anyway? And with what receivers? A perennially injured Sammy? A player who was never gonna re-sign in Woods when he preferred to return home and didn’t like TT as his QB to boot? I just don’t buy it. Anyway, I’m sorry if I offended those who were against the rebuild and how they went about it. And I’ll not add more to the now beaten dead horse. Onward and upward.
BADOLBILZ Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 2 hours ago, K-9 said: When it came to approval for trades? Who to “lobby” not to trade premium draft picks? Detroit. Period. Who Detroit felt the most affection and affinity for? Kay. Hands down. I think this fills in your latest rabbit hole. Stick to football takes. You know the game and you’re generally good with those. Off the field stuff? Not so much. Damn I thought you were going to give us a nugget about Norm Pollom or something. Always surprised me that he never became the Bills GM because Ralph was hiring and firing them pretty rapidly. But maybe he felt he was getting too old for the hassle at that point? Or did Ralph kinda' keep him at arms length because he was a Chuck Knox guy? Wasn't OK with long chats on the phone with Ralph maybe? Was he a Modrak-type who didn't like to be around the office in Buffalo enough? Regardless he had an admirable track record leading up the scouting departments in LA and Buffalo and certainly doesn't get enough credit for that 1985 draft. But your take that Kay Stephenson had the most say during that time period lends credibility to what Polian said. Stephenson didn't win but even as a teenager I always viewed him as a sympathetic character in a no-win situation more than as a bad coach so I was inclined to believe Polian. I'd love to see you share more of your details working in the Bills front office. It was decades ago and the key players are all gone so I don't see where the harm is.
GunnerBill Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 1 minute ago, K-9 said: Yes. And I’ll stand by that. Who else was gonna take us there if not TT? Rookies like Mahomes or Watson? Do you honestly not see a regression there in the short term, anyway? And with what receivers? A perennially injured Sammy? A player who was never gonna re-sign in Woods when he preferred to return home and didn’t like TT as his QB to boot? I just don’t buy it. Anyway, I’m sorry if I offended those who were against the rebuild and how they went about it. And I’ll not add more to the now beaten dead horse. Onward and upward. No I see no regression from Tyrod. He was not very good. I am not even saying a reload would have worked. Equally we don't know whether the rebuild will either though I like where we are currently at. But they did have talent. They were a .500 football team over a 3 year stint. Reloading was an option. Trying to deny it is foolish. They might have tried it got Sammy injured immediately or something like that and then ended up regretting it. Doesn't mean it was never an option.
BADOLBILZ Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: And not wanting to re-litigate the situation is fine. As is saying we don't have hindsight at the time. But you said "if a fan disagrees with the strategy to tear it down, they are essentially saying we could have continued to progress deeper into playoff runs with Tyrod Taylor as our QB." I just don't think that is true. We could have retained the bulk of a .500 roster, upgraded at QB with one of the two very talented guys who were sitting there at 10 for us and tried to make a run. I don't have an issue with the choice they made. But it was a choice and there was another way that didn't involve retaining Tyrod. Even if McDermott didn't like Mahomes or Watson enough to do that it still makes it a choice. Rebuild was one route to go to try and have success. It was a route I quite liked. But it was NOT that or keep Tyrod. There were other options that for whatever reason the Bills rejected. The Pegula's could also have actually tried to create some ALSO much craved continuity and retained Anthony Lynn...........who lead the Bills to their best offensive season in 25 years. He would have brought Gus Bradley........the original DC of the best defense of the 2000's in Seattle............who would have re-installed a 4-3 like McDermott but one that would have IMO been a better fit for guys like Gilmore and Darby........thus not necessitating giving them up for what amounted to Harrison Phillips. The bottom line is that the choices that were made with regard to the HC hire and not drafting a QB when everyone knew it should be the organization's top priority don't look good in retrospect. The Chargers took Lynn and have been a rousing success amid their organizational turmoil.... a legit SB contender. The Chiefs took Mahomes and he threw FIFTY TD pass(!) and were the best team in the AFC for most of last year. Your guy Watson had a historic start to his rookie year and is already a tremendous player........without him Houston probably has changed coaches and is in re-build mode instead of building on a talented roster. The Bills meanwhile, have been greatly outscored by opponents the past two seasons and have been pretty fortunate just to have the same record as they had under Rex. There have been some tremendous low points. The worst defensive 3 game stretch in team history. Peterman. A ton of blowout losses last year. Now hopefully that changes but as it stands they certainly don't look smart for those decisions yet. 1
HappyDays Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, GunnerBill said: Well we could have simply not taken up (or more accurately renegotiated and then taken up which is what we actually did) Tyrod's option in 2017 and selected Watson or Mahomes that year. Blame Pegula if you want. We didn't hire the next GM until after that draft. So who picks the QB, the defensive coach coming from a team that wasn't scouting QBs? There was no chance we were taking a QB that year. They certainly weren't going to go off of the scouting done by the lame duck GM and scouting staff. They had to cobble that draft together from Carolina's draft board. It's a miracle it went as well as it did. The eye was always on 2018 for drafting a QB, and if Allen turns out to be good the first 2 years won't mean a thing. Edited June 3, 2019 by HappyDays 2
BADOLBILZ Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 1 hour ago, K-9 said: Per the bold text, if a fan disagrees with the strategy to tear it down, they are essentially saying we could have continued to progress deeper into playoff runs with Tyrod Taylor as our QB. I submit that is absolutely ridiculous. That is a surreal take. There literally were paths not taken that the Bills had first dibs on that other teams THEN took and have lead them to much greater results. I mean if you told me the moment that Rex was fired that the 2018 Rams, Chargers and Texans would be have 5-7 more wins than the 2018 Bills I would have assumed that the Bills must be drafting #1 overall. Even the Chiefs........they were NOT due for an ascension.......they were due for some decline and re-build after riding Alex Smith and an aging defense as far as they could take them. ALL of those teams.....and the Patriots and Eagles.......... owe a debt of gratitude to the Bills for their choices. 1
K-9 Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 24 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: That is a surreal take. High praise coming from the master himself. I’ll stick by it though, as I’m not persuaded in the least by arguments that rely entirely on hindsight and unprovable assumptions that rookies drafted by other teams would have performed as well in Buffalo. Or that our supporting casts would have offered the exact same advantages. Feel free to show me all your posts prior to the ‘18 free agent season and draft period that outline all the moves you suggest we should have made instead. I might be persuaded by them. 1
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