John Warrow’s High Praise For Beane & McDermott Regime

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, 3rdand12 said:

you were a miserable Bills Fan.

 tis true enough.
quite pleased the tides have turned for many of us here.

 

I, too, am pleased.  And I appreciate everyone's patience!

[3rdand12]

10 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I, too, am pleased.  And I appreciate everyone's patience!

Good things come to those who wait 

 ?

 cheers

Go Bills !

[JaCrispy]

57 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

But there is a handful of posters who search high and low to put a negative spin on even the most positive news/viewpoints.  It does get old.  I was a miserable Bills fan for three years and it was not fun.  I can't imagine being like that all . of . the . time.  And some here, are.  They say they're fans, but all they do is find anything/everything wrong (whether perceived or real) with the team.  It's a tired shtick.

 

LET'S GO METS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I used to be miserable too, Gugs...I was actually at my breaking point after 30 years, where I wasn’t seeing any light at the end of the tunnel after Rex...I would tell myself that being a Bills fan was my curse in life because I could never stop rooting for them no matter how much they broke my soul....I even told myself that this regime was the last chance to save my fandom- because I figured we had tried every possible combo of GM and HC, and that if they couldn’t make a winner, I had a hard time thinking it could ever happen...thank God my hope has been restored with McBean...and it’s the most optimistic I’ve felt about the team in 20 years....this is finally our time...Go Bills!!!

Edited June 2, 2019 by JaCrispy

[BADOLBILZ]

9 hours ago, K-9 said:

 

What you said in the original post I responded to:

 

 

sounded to me like you were ascribing Polian the power to trade away draft picks heading into the ‘85 draft. He simply didn’t have that authority at the time. If I misunderstood that comment, fine. Thanks for clarifying. But I don’t think my assumption was far fetched based on what you said. 

 

I wasn't and it has no bearing on my point which was that Kay Stephenson kinda' took one for the team by telling the pro personnel director Polian that they shouldn't trade picks for vets even if their jobs were on the line if they didn't start winning right away.    Polian didn't say he was in favor of it either but since he was the guy fielding those calls and negotiating pro personnel matters it was his job to present the options so it certainly makes sense.

 

But why do you think Polian had so little power?  You are utterly dismissive of him like he was some road scout.

 

As I'm sure you remember the Bills were effectively operating without a GM during the entire draft process so the duo of Bill Polian and Norm Pollam had been assigned all of the GM's football related duties..........specifically the negotiation of trades and contracts.........which history reflects that Polian did the lion's share of.    At worst they were the two guys at the top of the personnel department.

 

Getting Bruce Smith signed and what was essentially the "Kosar trade" were significant moves and Polian has generally been seen as instrumental in negotiating those deals but you say he didn't have much pull with Detroit?   Wouldn't put it past Polian to lie about those things but I'd like to hear the real story if you have it.

 

[oldmanfan]

2 hours ago, 2018 Our Year For Sure said:

You're the one labeling them "negative." Why are you such a pessimist?

 

They're simply discussing the team.

Bullcrap

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

I was going to make the point about going back so many years to prove this is not 1989....glad I read the whole thread before pointing.

Yea, the only reason I went back that far is because I feel some Bills fans can relate more to their Buffalo Bills.

 

 

Going back to the main discussion. I also think that it shouldn't take a quality HC, GM long to build a competitive team. Just defending this current regime due to certain circumstances.

 

Chuck Knox did it in 1978 without a good GM, Stew Barber . Knox traded away OJ for good picks, rebuilt the roster and brought in a few experienced veteran NFL players to be leaders, rah rah type guys for the young players. Knox himself was an ex- O line player, coach and although the team already had a decent offensive line crew from the OJ days nicknamed the "Electric Co". In 1980 Knox drafted OG Jim Ritcher  #16 overall who went on to play 16 years in the NFL, 14 for Buffalo. He was there for the 1980 playoffs and all the 90's super bowls.

 

It took Knox only three years in Buffalo.

It took Polian only three years in Buffalo.

It took Polian only two years to go from a brand new franchise in Carolina in 1995 to 12-4 and the conference championship in 1996.

It took Polian only three years in Indy to go from back to back 3-13 seasons in 1997, 1998 to 13-3 in 1999. 

 

Marty Schottenheimer was another HC who could build a competitive in a short time, usually three years. Andy Reid inherited a 2-14 team in KC, 2013. Then had them in the playoffs the very next season. Unlike Adam Gase who got the Dolphins to the playoffs in his first year (2016) in Miami or the NY Jets HC Todd Bowles who got to 10-6 in his first year in 2015. Andy Reid has had the Chiefs in the playoffs five of the last six years. 

 

Let's hope McD is not like Gase, Bowles and more like Reid. 

 

More recently Sean McVay inherited a somewhat decent Rams roster in 2016 that already had Aaron Donald, Todd Gurley and then drafted QB Jered Goff #1 overall. McVay is a young offensive genius and he runs that offense, while being smart enough to hire Wade Phillips as his DC. 

[John from Riverside]

I think it is worth pointing out that they completely rebuilt this roster and did not retool it

 

im not giving them a pass on this year though this team needs to improve greatly this year

[John from Riverside]

5 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

...LMAO....from the head cheerleader for the perpetual "Constant Criticism of The Bills Ad Nauseam" shining star........SMH......a blast at parties...or...wakes........

A definite punch bowl pisser no doubt 

 

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

I, too, am pleased.  And I appreciate everyone's patience!

Gig is my brother from another mother ?

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

But there is a handful of posters who search high and low to put a negative spin on even the most positive news/viewpoints.  It does get old.  I was a miserable Bills fan for three years and it was not fun.  I can't imagine being like that all . of . the . time.  And some here, are.  They say they're fans, but all they do is find anything/everything wrong (whether perceived or real) with the team.  It's a tired shtick.

 

LET'S GO METS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

High and low?

 

The exaggeration is priceless.  The Bills are a relatively BAD organization by any north american pro sports measure and it requires no high and low searching to illustrate that.

 

As for your prior inability to separate your happiness from your fandom of a team.........that's a YOU problem.

 

It's good for you that you've found a way to manage that illness(presumably without decapitation tactics) but attacking others for not needing to pretend that "everything is awesome" with an entertainment product is just another YOU problem that you unnecessarily expose others to.    You're depression issue with fandom is probably just you being negatively charged so you are likely just going to find a place to continue shift that negativity.

 

You're welcome for the free diagnosis.

 

Perhaps your lack of true interest in the football aspect of being a Bills fan makes the losing less tolerable without playing pretend about the product.

 

Learn more about the game so you can find entertainment and enjoyment even if the results on the field don't provide gratification 10 or more Sundays per year.  Follow college football and the draft.   As a Mess fan follow ALL of their organizational games every night.  The live box score for the Mets and ALL of their minor league affiliates is literally one single click away.   Get to know those players.

 

One relatively common trait with most negatively charged apologists is a tepid interest in the details of the product.    We all want to enjoy the journey......that's really what matters....some have to pretend everything is great to do that because they don't really care that much about the game........others can appreciate so many other aspects of the product that it's still entertaining if the results aren't there on the field.

[Nihilarian]

34 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

I used to be miserable too, Gugs...I was actually at my breaking point after 30 years, where I wasn’t seeing any light at the end of the tunnel after Rex...I would tell myself that being a Bills fan was my curse in life because I could never stop rooting for them no matter how much they broke my soul....I even told myself that this regime was the last chance to save my fandom- because I figured we had tried every possible combo of GM and HC, and that if they couldn’t make a winner, I had a hard time thinking it could ever happen...thank God my hope has been restored with McBean...and it’s the most optimistic I’ve felt about the team in 20 years....this is finally our time...Go Bills!!!

I can't say I was miserable over the last decade of losing... but it was very frustrating watching the ineptitude year after year, regime after regime. Every time I would point out the mistakes, screw ups, bad choices in coaching hires, players I would get slammed by Bills fans over and over. 

 

It was difficult dealing with the eternal optimism that was the main constant from Bills fans over the years. Most never gave up and kept thinking the next year will be "our" year! the koolaid drinkers were almost insufferable by constantly blowing sunshine everywhere. 

 

I was often accused of having mental issues because I was negative about the team. I also bitched about Russ Brandon, the marketing guy being involved in the football side and certain posters would jump all over me defending him for what we all now know was that he was very heavily involved in the football side of the Org.

 

Most Bills fans here didn't want change and wanted to keep Chan Gailey, Rex Ryan and one poster defended Dick Jauron over and over for several hundred pages. How can the team ever get better if they keep firing the GM, HC? In my eyes it was easy once you realize you hired bums! 

 

At this point I think most Bills fans are so down beaten by all the bad player choices and bad coaching hires that they don't want to give anyone more then three years. 

 

Some of guys need to have some patience as this GM looks be the very best we have had since Bill Polian. While I am 100% confidant in Beane, I'm not so certain about McD and his choices for assistant coaches. Again, I must point out that he from a defensive background and is learning the offensive side as he goes. 

 

I have to agree with ya JaCrispy as this is the most optimistic I've felt about the team since early 90's AND the team now has ownership that wants to win! 

 

[Rico]

15 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

I can't say I was miserable over the last decade of losing... but it was very frustrating watching the ineptitude year after year, regime after regime. Every time I would point out the mistakes, screw ups, bad choices in coaching hires, players I would get slammed by Bills fans over and over. 

 

It was difficult dealing with the eternal optimism that was the main constant from Bills fans over the years. Most never gave up and kept thinking the next year will be "our" year! the koolaid drinkers were almost insufferable by constantly blowing sunshine everywhere. 

 

I was often accused of having mental issues because I was negative about the team. I also bitched about Russ Brandon, the marketing guy being involved in the football side and certain posters would jump all over me defending him for what we all now know was that he was very heavily involved in the football side of the Org.

 

Most Bills fans here didn't want change and wanted to keep Chan Gailey, Rex Ryan and one poster defended Dick Jauron over and over for several hundred pages. How can the team ever get better if they keep firing the GM, HC? In my eyes it was easy once you realize you hired bums! 

 

At this point I think most Bills fans are so down beaten by all the bad player choices and bad coaching hires that they don't want to give anyone more then three years. 

 

Some of guys need to have some patience as this GM looks be the very best we have had since Bill Polian. While I am 100% confidant in Beane, I'm not so certain about McD and his choices for assistant coaches. Again, I must point out that he from a defensive background and is learning the offensive side as he goes. 

 

I have to agree with ya JaCrispy as this is the most optimistic I've felt about the team since early 90's AND the team now has ownership that wants to win! 

 

Did you know EJ had better stats his rookie year than Josh Allen?

[Gugny]

38 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

High and low?

 

The exaggeration is priceless.  The Bills are a relatively BAD organization by any north american pro sports measure and it requires no high and low searching to illustrate that.

 

As for your prior inability to separate your happiness from your fandom of a team.........that's a YOU problem.

 

It's good for you that you've found a way to manage that illness(presumably without decapitation tactics) but attacking others for not needing to pretend that "everything is awesome" with an entertainment product is just another YOU problem that you unnecessarily expose others to.    You're depression issue with fandom is probably just you being negatively charged so you are likely just going to find a place to continue shift that negativity.

 

You're welcome for the free diagnosis.

 

Perhaps your lack of true interest in the football aspect of being a Bills fan makes the losing less tolerable without playing pretend about the product.

 

Learn more about the game so you can find entertainment and enjoyment even if the results on the field don't provide gratification 10 or more Sundays per year.  Follow college football and the draft.   As a Mess fan follow ALL of their organizational games every night.  The live box score for the Mets and ALL of their minor league affiliates is literally one single click away.   Get to know those players.

 

One relatively common trait with most negatively charged apologists is a tepid interest in the details of the product.    We all want to enjoy the journey......that's really what matters....some have to pretend everything is great to do that because they don't really care that much about the game........others can appreciate so many other aspects of the product that it's still entertaining if the results aren't there on the field.

 

I've attacked no one.

 

I've never been an "everything is awesome," homer and I freely acknowledge that, outside the four wonder years, the Bills have been a pathetic organization.

 

But that was Ralph's fault.  He's dead.  The Pegulas completely effed up their intro by hiring Rex ... who subsequently gave the starting QB job to Taylor.   Since then, they've made decent moves and meddled less.  I'm happy with that.

 

I know the Mets. Don't you worry.  I've known them since 1983.  I'm no Mets homer, either.  In fact, I'm harder on them than I've ever been on the Bills.

 

I don't follow college football.  I love the draft, but since I don't follow college football, I know only what I read about as far as the available players.

 

If knowing football as intimately as you do would make me the kind of fan that you are ... no thanks.  I'll gladly take my naive approach and understanding of the game and not "know so much," that I'm able to do nothing but find the negatives in every aspect of the team.

 

Wallow in yourshit by yourself.  Don't drag me down, brother.

 

Go Bills and Go Mets!!!!!

 

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by Gugny

[K-9]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I wasn't and it has no bearing on my point which was that Kay Stephenson kinda' took one for the team by telling the pro personnel director Polian that they shouldn't trade picks for vets even if their jobs were on the line if they didn't start winning right away.    Polian didn't say he was in favor of it either but since he was the guy fielding those calls and negotiating pro personnel matters it was his job to present the options so it certainly makes sense.

 

But why do you think Polian had so little power?  You are utterly dismissive of him like he was some road scout.

 

As I'm sure you remember the Bills were effectively operating without a GM during the entire draft process so the duo of Bill Polian and Norm Pollam had been assigned all of the GM's football related duties..........specifically the negotiation of trades and contracts.........which history reflects that Polian did the lion's share of.    At worst they were the two guys at the top of the personnel department.

 

Getting Bruce Smith signed and what was essentially the "Kosar trade" were significant moves and Polian has generally been seen as instrumental in negotiating those deals but you say he didn't have much pull with Detroit?   Wouldn't put it past Polian to lie about those things but I'd like to hear the real story if you have it.

 

I have a ton of respect for Polian’s acumen as did everyone else in that building at the time, so I’d never dismiss him as a road scout although it was an aspect of the job he enjoyed a lot. He’d spend hours with scouts pouring over film and breaking down various players, pro or college. So, to echo your beef, don’t suggest I said something I didn’t. 

 

He did have an enormous ego, was often downright rude to people, and had to be told to calm down from time to time, but all in all a great guy to have a beer with.

 

However, he was NOT the person Kay would have had to convince not to trade away premium picks, and he WOULDN’T have done that anyway. 

 

Like I said, if I misunderstood your original post, fine, thanks for the clarification. But I still don’t think my original assumption was so unreasonable that it would cause you to continue to belabor the point.

 

I have no desire to continue down another rabbit hole of yours.

 

In the future just I’ll look for and respond to your actual football takes. They are usually interesting. 

[BADOLBILZ]

19 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I have a ton of respect for Polian’s acumen as did everyone else in that building at the time, so I’d never dismiss him as a road scout although it was an aspect of the job he enjoyed a lot. He’d spend hours with scouts pouring over film and breaking down various players, pro or college. So, to echo your beef, don’t suggest I said something I didn’t. 

 

He did have an enormous ego, was often downright rude to people, and had to be told to calm down from time to time, but all in all a great guy to have a beer with.

 

However, he was NOT the person Kay would have had to convince not to trade away premium picks, and he WOULDN’T have done that anyway. 

 

Like I said, if I misunderstood your original post, fine, thanks for the clarification. But I still don’t think my original assumption was so unreasonable that it would cause you to continue to belabor the point.

 

I have no desire to continue down another rabbit hole of yours.

 

In the future just I’ll look for and respond to your actual football takes. They are usually interesting. 

  

 

Well you went to all this trouble.........at least give us your inside-the-building take on the hierarchy in March of 1985.

 

Was it like this then?:

 

1. Pollom

2. Stephenson

3. Polian

 

Inarguably(?) the greatest draft class in team history(2 HOF'ers plus Reich) and traded a pick that they knew was going to be used to select a potential franchise QB for a tremendous CB prospect whose career was tragically cut short.........and it all happened with the GM on the sideline.........gotta' be some interesting stories about how that went down.

[GunnerBill]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

One relatively common trait with most negatively charged apologists is a tepid interest in the details of the product.    We all want to enjoy the journey......that's really what matters....some have to pretend everything is great to do that because they don't really care that much about the game........others can appreciate so many other aspects of the product that it's still entertaining if the results aren't there on the field.

 

Enjoying the journey is the best part of it. Winning is great - it is. But finally succeeding after the struggle that is always special. I said it here in the aftermath of the Dalton miracle - don't hate the drought. You don't get the ecstasy of the Dalton miracle without the drought. It was part of the journey. That is what following sports teams is. It is highs and lows. As fans it is better if you acknowledge both rather than always seeking a positive spin to pretend the lows don't exist. I promise everyone once you properly acknowledge the lows then you will enjoy the highs more.

[3rdand12]

28 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Enjoying the journey is the best part of it. Winning is great - it is. But finally succeeding after the struggle that is always special. I said it here in the aftermath of the Dalton miracle - don't hate the drought. You don't get the ecstasy of the Dalton miracle without the drought. It was part of the journey. That is what following sports teams is. It is highs and lows. As fans it is better if you acknowledge both rather than always seeking a positive spin to pretend the lows don't exist. I promise everyone once you properly acknowledge the lows then you will enjoy the highs more.

very zen
and quite true

[SoTier]

17 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

And yet you went back nearly twenty years...

 

The point was made that these are both a first time head coach and GM. Now go back though that list to see how many had great success as a first time HC, GM...only one team!

 

I never mentioned anything about it taking a half a decade to become relevant and I agreed with Fan In Chicago that we should should see positive results on the field after the third season. I also agree with you that we should see some positive results on the field this season!

This year will be McD's third season and it's only Beane's second draft, full off season. Actually this is the one season where his hands weren't tied up with the salary cap. 

 

Someone made mention that this regime has had the same record as "awful" Doug Whaley after two seasons @ 15-17.

 

Yet, McD's 2017 Buffalo Bills made the playoffs for the first time in twenty years. This alone should allow the HC some extra time to get things together. (Are Bills fans blind to this?) He is after all a defensive mined HC and the 2018 Buffalo Bills were the #2 overall defense with the #1 pass defense in the league. 

 

As I mentioned several times in this thread that the weak link on this team might be the current Buffalo Bills offensive coordinator who has been terrible in the pass game in his past jobs. Daboll has six seasons of being an NFL OC and this is his NFL fifth team. Should the passing offense not greatly improve away from that 30th ranking then McD should be able to make another change to a more successful NFL OC. Josh Allen deserves that. 

 

When was the last time that this franchise had a quality offensive coordinator with the offensive talent like a Sean Payton, Doug Pederson, Sean McVay? Like almost never?

Perhaps ex-Colts HC Ted Marchibroda, who taught Jim Kelly to call his own plays so after he quit to become the Colts HC again he wouldn't be missed?

 

I went back 20 years because I remembered Belichick's early success, which seemed like a good starting point.  I didn't expect to find so many Super Bowl contenders prior to the last ten years having success early on after a HC change but that's what happened.  My guess is that it's related to the salary cap in that smart organizations choose NOT to tear down and start from scratch when they made new coaching hires because they were reluctant to create too much dead cap space.  Keep in mind that I only used Super Bowl participants, and not the numerous other teams that started making the playoffs with regularity after hiring a new HC.

 

I cannot give  the Bills a pass because Beane is a neophyte GM.  I don't think that's necessarily the problem.  I think McDermott is the problem in that he was given way too much power over the roster for a first time HC.  He seems to have a good eye for defensive talent (White and Milano) but seems poor at evaluating offensive talent (Jones, Dawkins, and Peterman) from 2017 when he bears sole responsibility for that draft.   The 2018 and 2019 drafts seem better but it's not clear how much control McDermott had of those.  What's fact is that the Bills have spent 3 of their 4 first round picks in the last 3 drafts on defense, and they have spent a lot of draft capital trading up for players other than a potential QB, which does not seem like a wise long-term strategy in the salary cap era when it is so essential to fill lots of roster spots with quality younger players still on their rookie contracts.

 

I totally agree that coaches, especially offensive assistant coaches, have been a continual problem with the Bills for the entire drought era.  McDermott's offensive assistants have been awful which is very troublesome.

 

I stand by my belief that the Bills need to show marked improvement, especially on offense, in 2019. Good organizations start showing their true colors early on; bad/mediocre ones always have excuses for their lack of improvement.

 

 

16 hours ago, K-9 said:

Half the teams on your list cold hardly be considered "dregs" the year before those respective coaches took over. 

 

Anyway, it's always gonna be an apples to oranges comparison given the nature of the game. This Bills regime is going into their third year. If they are like the Saints, Seahawks, Eagles, and Rams and have found their franchise QB, there is no reason to believe they aren't firmly on the same track. 

 

The Bills were 9-7 in 2014,  7-9 in 2015, and 8-8 in 2016, so they weren't "dregs" either before McDermott was hired.  

 

11 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I think it is worth pointing out that they completely rebuilt this roster and did not retool it

 

im not giving them a pass on this year though this team needs to improve greatly this year

 

The choice to tear down and rebuild was a choice made by McDermott and Beane, so they don't get a pass for that decision.  Most successful teams in the salary cap era choose to retool when they have a decently talented roster and bring in a new HC ... which was the Bills in 2017.

 

I agree that the Bills need to improve significantly this year. 

 

[K-9]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

The Bills were 9-7 in 2014,  7-9 in 2015, and 8-8 in 2016, so they weren't "dregs" either before McDermott was hired.  

You made it a point to say that newly hired coaches led previous “bottom feeders” to dramatic turnarounds in a short period of time and then listed 10 teams to illustrate that point. I pointed out that half of those teams couldn’t be considered bottom feeders. Now you make it a point to say McDermott didn’t inherit a bottom feeder, either, so I don’t know what your point is. Is it that he came into a good situation and since he hasn’t done anything except make the playoffs in half his seasons at the helm that he is somehow lacking compared to others on your list?

 

Anyway,  my main point is that the four teams you listed that could truly be considered dregs found their franchise QB, while the other teams you listed already had him in place. With the exception of Fox in Carolina.

 

Unless you have that guy, your team isn’t gonna do squat. No matter who the coach is. Let’s hope we found ours. 

Edited June 3, 2019 by K-9

[eball]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Enjoying the journey is the best part of it. Winning is great - it is. But finally succeeding after the struggle that is always special. I said it here in the aftermath of the Dalton miracle - don't hate the drought. You don't get the ecstasy of the Dalton miracle without the drought. It was part of the journey. That is what following sports teams is. It is highs and lows. As fans it is better if you acknowledge both rather than always seeking a positive spin to pretend the lows don't exist. I promise everyone once you properly acknowledge the lows then you will enjoy the highs more.

 

This is an insightful post and I agree with most of it.  I think what is often misunderstood is the mindset of "optimistic" fans -- at least where I'm concerned.  Optimistic, positive fans around here generally aren't burying their heads in the sand with respect to what is wrong -- they simply have a different perspective on looking towards the future.  When I look at a move made by the GM, for example, I'm thinking of ways it could work out rather than ways it could fail.  That doesn't mean I don't acknowledge failures and hope they are learning experiences for the organization.

 

The late 80s and 90s were more special because of what we witnessed in the mid-80s (i.e., the embarrassment of our first round QB choosing the USFL).  It is always sweeter to overcome obstacles on the road to greatness.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

The Bills were 9-7 in 2014,  7-9 in 2015, and 8-8 in 2016, so they weren't "dregs" either before McDermott was hired.  

 

The choice to tear down and rebuild was a choice made by McDermott and Beane, so they don't get a pass for that decision.  Most successful teams in the salary cap era choose to retool when they have a decently talented roster and bring in a new HC ... which was the Bills in 2017.

 

I agree that the Bills need to improve significantly this year. 

 

Both of your first two points are well made and should just be accepted as a matter of truth to my mind. The people who try and weasel their away around those points don't make themselves look very credible.