Nihilarian Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Fan in Chicago said: At no point did I say I am not optimistic. But the NFL world is a lot different than 30 years back. Teams have turned it around in less than 3 years and gone on to become contenders. The chain of command is fairly clear with the current bunch and are presumed to be in lock step. They have done what needed to be done earlier but there is a limited time allowed to show success in terms of W-L. I am unwilling to excuse another season where we arent competitive on the field, cannot beat the Pats* at least once and also miss the playoffs. These are minimums going into their third season. Hey, I agree and want results too. I would love to see the Bills sweep the Patriots which is something they haven't done since 1999? I also agree that if this years team isn't competitive that changes should be made. Let me go back to my dislike of the offensive play calls last year. Aside from major injuries all over the roster in 2019, I don't see how it would be possible for the Bills to be worse then 9-7. That record got them in the playoffs in 2017. Also realize that teams can go 11-5 and still miss the playoffs. Should the 2019 Buffalo Bills crap the bed with anything less then 8-8. Let me reiterate that Beane stays no matter what! The GM should have the chance to select his own HC. While I like McD, his choice for OC should be on the hot seat if the offense doesn't take a giant step away from the worst in the league after six years of him being an NFL OC. Daboll's offenses have been 32nd, 29th, 23rd, 32nd, 31st in passing yards in his fourth stint as an NFL offensive coordinator.
BADOLBILZ Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, K-9 said: Polian didn’t have that kind of juice when Stephenson was coach as he was fired before Polian was promoted to GM at the end of ‘85. That said, Polian wasn’t apt to trade those premium picks, anyway. 1. Polian's own words and I am sure most avid draft fans on here have seen them on "Caught in the Draft: 1985". 2. The "level of clout" aspect assumes that I said Polian had trades lined up and Stephenson nixed them. That's not what I said. What I said is what he said. I guess just watch the show. For a Bills historian it's a must watch......it was pretty much the "foundation" draft of the SB teams with Bruce Smith, Andre Reed, Frank Reich, Derrick Burroughs and a few other good players like Chris Burkett and Hal Garner(Steve Tasker was also selected by Houston in that draft). But it's mostly forgotten that the Bills were also right in the middle of the biggest real-time storyline of that draft: teams jockeying to draft Bernie Kosar and Kosar pulling out of the draft at the last minute using a loophole and Buffalo then trading the top pick in the supplemental draft(relinquishing their 1986 #1) to Cleveland so they could select him. Edited June 2, 2019 by BADOLBILZ
K-9 Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 54 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: 1. Polian's own words and I am sure most avid draft fans on here have seen them on "Caught in the Draft: 1985". 2. The "level of clout" aspect assumes that I said Polian had trades lined up and Stephenson nixed them. That's not what I said. What I said is what he said. I guess just watch the show. For a Bills historian it's a must watch......it was pretty much the "foundation" draft of the SB teams with Bruce Smith, Andre Reed, Frank Reich, Derrick Burroughs and a few other good players like Chris Burkett and Hal Garner(Steve Tasker was also selected by Houston in that draft). But it's mostly forgotten that the Bills were also right in the middle of the biggest real-time storyline of that draft: teams jockeying to draft Bernie Kosar and Kosar pulling out of the draft at the last minute using a loophole and Buffalo then trading the top pick in the supplemental draft(relinquishing their 1986 #1) to Cleveland so they could select him. I made no assumptions. Like many things Polian, his ego tends to embellish things a bit. While Polian was certainly ascending within the organization, Stephenson had more power and sway with Detroit heading into the ‘85 draft. Polian simply wouldn’t have been the person he would need to consult on trades one way or the other. No matter how much he may have thought that at the time. Helluva great draft, as you said.
BADOLBILZ Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 48 minutes ago, K-9 said: I made no assumptions. Like many things Polian, his ego tends to embellish things a bit. While Polian was certainly ascending within the organization, Stephenson had more power and sway with Detroit heading into the ‘85 draft. Polian simply wouldn’t have been the person he would need to consult on trades one way or the other. No matter how much he may have thought that at the time. Helluva great draft, as you said. Yeah..........it was implied that Stephenson had the clout to greatly influence if not veto the personnel department. Polian made a very big point of the fact that Stephenson resisted moves to get better quick at the expense of draft picks even though they all felt that their employment with the team was tenuous at best, including Stephenson. Stephenson was fired in early October. So, yes you assumed I was saying something I was not. I agree that there is some revisionism in some of the retrospectives on those Bills teams though.............for example in "The Four Falls of Buffalo" a HUGE stink is made of Chuck Dickerson's comments about the Hogs prior to SB XXVI........it was basically "we lost because of that"....but the bigger story that week was actually Bruce Smith calling out Bills fans as racists because of some hate mail he had received. There was just a sh*tnado around that team prior to some of those SB's. And there was no mention of that or the drunken partying in SB weeks or Darryl Talley getting in a fight with Magic Johnson's body guard prior to SB XXVII whatsoever because it didn't fit the narrative that they were just tragic heroes. Easier to scapegoat a DL coach for them never winning a SB. 1
freddyjj Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 13 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: #3 is the key..........they are the first Bills regime to ever go all-in on a QB on draft day. First time they've ever used their first pick in round one or traded up above their first pick in round one for a QB. Even if they fail miserably otherwise, if Allen emerges as a great QB that should be remembered in the same way that Kay Stephenson should be appreciated for insisting on Bill Polian not trading away the draft picks that built the eventual SB teams to save their jobs when Polian suggested it to him. The rest of your list is just basic "regime that hasn't fallen entirely out of favor yet" talk and is the proverbial "six of one/ half dozen of another" stack of positives(some highly subjective in nature) that nearly every regime has. If Allen turns into a franchise QB I will be patting McBeane on the back long after most of you are giving them the "idiot" treatment that former genius/darlings like Whaley get now. Confused by Stephenson / Polian comment. Stephenson was HC in Polian' s 1st yr here - 1984 season - when Polian was Director of Pro Personnel. Terry Bledsoe was Bill's GM for 1984 and 1985 drafts. Stephenson coached only 5 games in 1985 before being fired Polian became GM 1/1/1986 when Stephenson was already gone and after Ralph fired Bledsoe
SoTier Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 On 5/31/2019 at 9:35 AM, john wawrow said: i'm not a fan of the team by the mere nature of my job. what's your excuse? jw What you seem to be is a reporter whose access to the team is dependent upon putting positive spin on whatever the team does and who gets very defensive when posters here criticize your acceptance of the conditions for your access. On 5/31/2019 at 10:39 AM, RochesterLifer said: Honestly Coach, I haven't found this to be "good discourse" at all. While JW is sharing his (quality) thoughts and information, BADOLBILZ has petulantly and pointlessly argued with every post, as if taking on a sportswriter is providing 15 minutes of fame. I look forward to what JW has to share and have had to tolerate BADOLBILZ' (I want ice cream!!!!!!) grade school level responses to read it. Another member of the "No Critiicism of the Bills Allowed" Brigade heard from! 1
K-9 Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: Yeah..........it was implied that Stephenson had the clout to greatly influence if not veto the personnel department. Polian made a very big point of the fact that Stephenson resisted moves to get better quick at the expense of draft picks even though they all felt that their employment with the team was tenuous at best, including Stephenson. Stephenson was fired in early October. So, yes you assumed I was saying something I was not. I agree that there is some revisionism in some of the retrospectives on those Bills teams though.............for example in "The Four Falls of Buffalo" a HUGE stink is made of Chuck Dickerson's comments about the Hogs prior to SB XXVI........it was basically "we lost because of that"....but the bigger story that week was actually Bruce Smith calling out Bills fans as racists because of some hate mail he had received. There was just a sh*tnado around that team prior to some of those SB's. And there was no mention of that or the drunken partying in SB weeks or Darryl Talley getting in a fight with Magic Johnson's body guard prior to SB XXVII whatsoever because it didn't fit the narrative that they were just tragic heroes. Easier to scapegoat a DL coach for them never winning a SB. What you said in the original post I responded to: Quote Even if they fail miserably otherwise, if Allen emerges as a great QB that should be remembered in the same way that Kay Stephenson should be appreciated for insisting on Bill Polian not trading away the draft picks that built the eventual SB teams to save their jobs when Polian suggested it to him sounded to me like you were ascribing Polian the power to trade away draft picks heading into the ‘85 draft. He simply didn’t have that authority at the time. If I misunderstood that comment, fine. Thanks for clarifying. But I don’t think my assumption was far fetched based on what you said. Edited June 2, 2019 by K-9
BUFFALOKIE Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 8 hours ago, JoPar_v2 said: It’s “Wawrow” btw OP. Ruh roh.
Saxum Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 17 hours ago, Magox said: Arguably drafting a franchise QB is the most tangibly seen and most consequential move a FO can make. It can hide a number of deficiencies that an organization make and help carry mediocre organizations to perennial playoff teams similar to Colts and Packers organizations over the past 20 years. Without Manning and Luck or Favre and Rodgers those organizations aren't even average. One small note: Rodgers was traded for. If Phish got a right with wrong Josh they will be doing same thing. I think it is more likely he will repeat Marino and end up doing commercials after being injured.
SoTier Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 (edited) On 5/31/2019 at 1:46 PM, ddaryl said: I just cannot believe after what we witnessed for the 17 years before Beane and McDermott that anyone would or even could think we are trending the wrong way. Even if it takes 5 more years we will never be basement dwellers with these 2 at the helm and will always be trending upwards, and wil be able to make moves as needed. This much I feel extremely confident about Aside from actually making the playoffs in 2017 rather than missing them because of tie-breakers and spending a ton of resources to draft Allen in 2018, what "trends" suggest that this regime "will be able to make moves as needed" to be anything different than a team that wobbles between 6 and 9 wins for the foreseeable future just as it has for the previous 19? Letting good, young DBs and WRs walk in FA rather than re-signing them and using high draft picks to replace them? Failing to provide their QBs with adequate protection and targets? Wasting a roster spot on an incompetent backup QB like Nathan Peterman? Hiring assistant coaches with, at best, modest resumes, including a QB coach with no relevant professional experience as a QB in 30 years? Since you're willing to wait 5 more years for McDermott and Beane to get their acts together, then you're good with 7 wins in 2019 and 8 or 9 wins with no playoffs in 2020? My guess is that you'll be pretty lonely in your support for the current regime at that point. 21 hours ago, Nihilarian said: If look at the history of most teams that eventually get to the super bowl... it usually doesn't happen after two seasons. There is usually a progression that follows that growth and even as amazing as the 90's Buffalo Bills were they suffered some extremely bad 2-14 back to back seasons in 1984-85 to get the chance to draft HoFer Bruce Smith number one overall in 1985, Andre Reed was a 4th round pick that year. The Bills GM at that time was Terry Bledsoe, but they did happen to have Bill Polian as director of player personnel who took over as GM in 1986. Even as good as Polian was at building a great team quickly it even took him three years and he already had Bruce, Andre, Darryl Talley, Pete Metzelaars and signed Jim Kelly to the richest QB contract in the league. Also, what helped build that super bowl team so quickly was that the USFL folded and that brought in center Kent Hull. Although this is Brandon Beane's third season he wasn't here for the 2017 NFL draft and that entire scouting dept was fired and replaced which is a difficult task to handle for a first time GM. We fans don't know what can happen in a season beforehand so why say this regime has to do better then 9-7 considering the injuries that can happen to derail a season? The 2013 Atlanta Falcons have one of the very best franchise QB's in Matt Ryan and one of the best GM's in the league in ex Patriots man in Thomas Dimitroff and that year the Falcons went 4-12 after just being in the conference championship. From what I see is this new GM is building a team for the long term and bringing in players that fit what they want to do here. Look over the players that the team still has on the roster from the Doug Whaley, Buddy Nix days and look at their drafts! Just look at the top free agents from 2017, in Micah Hyde, Jordan Poyer, Stephen Hauschka. Undrafted free agent Jason Croom. 2018 (now think of the limited cap space the team has had to get the top free agents this year.) Trading Tyrod Taylor for a 3rd round pick was sheer brilliance by Beane! Trading away Cordy Glenn (who was recently moved to OG)with his health issues to Cincy to help move up to draft QB Josh Allen for the 12th pick which they then traded up with the Bucs to the 7th pick. The Bills traded their sixth-round selection (195th overall) and wide receiver Sammy Watkins to the Los Angeles Rams in exchange for the Rams' second-round selection (56th overall) and cornerback E.J. Gaines. Yeah, 16 Mill per for a decoy WR that is always injured... The majority of this board wanted the Bills to trade up to the #2 spot with the NY Giants to draft...Josh Rosen! In doing so it would have been okay to give up the farm and the Bills 2019 first round pick. Beane held his ground and got his man at the #7 spot. He basically did the same this year with Oliver. C'mon man, how can you not be so very optimistic about the 2019 season and upcoming years when you look at what this GM has accomplished in his short time with Buffalo? This only thing I see is McD might not be the guy at head coach as I'm not sold on Brian Daboll as the Bills OC. Not after watching all those deep throws with that bad O line and crappy KB at WR, with no run game from the RB's. While we found out what a great runner JA is...he shouldn't need to be the teams leading rusher. In my view, Beane stays no matter what! Excuse me, but this is 2019 not 1989, and how teams were built 30 or 35 years ago is totally irrelevant to how things work today. A good organization with a good coaching staff produces a turn around in short order, not taking a half decade or more to become Super Bowl participants. Bill Belichick was hired in 2000. The Patriots won their first Super Bowl after the 2001season. Jon Gruden was hired in 2002. The Bucs won the Super Bowl after the 2002 season. Tony Dungy was hired in 2002. The Colts won the Super Bowl after the 2006 season. John Fox was hired in 2002. The Panthers went to the Super Bowl after the 2003 season. Lovie Smith was hired in 2004. The Bears went to the Super Bowl after the 2006 season. Tom Coughlin was hired in 2004. The Giants won the Super Bowl after the 2007 season. Sean Payton was hired in 2006. The Saints won the Super Bowl after the 2009 season. Pete Carroll was hired in 2010. The Seahawks won the Super Bowl after the 2013 season. Doug Pederson was hired in 2016. The Eagles won the Super Bowl after the 2017 season. Sean McVay was hired in 2017. The Rams went to the Super Bowl after the 2018 season. Numerous other teams made turn arounds from bottom feeders to regular playoff teams within 3 years of bringing in new coaches and/or coach/gms even if they didn't make it to the Super Bowl. If the Bills don't seriously contend for the playoffs in 2019 and win at least 9 games, then there seriously has to be conversations about why. I don't think that a losing record will be acceptable, especially if Allen stays healthy or only misses 1 or 2 games. 18 minutes ago, Limeaid said: One small note: Rodgers was traded for. If Phish got a right with wrong Josh they will be doing same thing. I think it is more likely he will repeat Marino and end up doing commercials after being injured. I think you meant Favre was traded for. Rodgers was drafted with the 24th pick in the 2005 draft. Edited June 2, 2019 by SoTier
K-9 Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 23 minutes ago, Limeaid said: One small note: Rodgers was traded for. If Phish got a right with wrong Josh they will be doing same thing. I think it is more likely he will repeat Marino and end up doing commercials after being injured.
Nihilarian Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 32 minutes ago, SoTier said: Excuse me, but this is 2019 not 1989, and how teams were built 30 or 35 years ago is totally irrelevant to how things work today. A good organization with a good coaching staff produces a turn around in short order, not taking a half decade or more to become Super Bowl participants. Bill Belichick was hired in 2000. The Patriots won their first Super Bowl after the 2001season. HC 5 years previous as Cleveland Browns HC Jon Gruden was hired in 2002. The Bucs won the Super Bowl after the 2002 season. HC 4 years previous as Oakland Raiders HC Tony Dungy was hired in 2002. The Colts won the Super Bowl after the 2006 season. HC 6 years previous as Tampa Bay HC John Fox was hired in 2002. The Panthers went to the Super Bowl after the 2003 season. They lost that SB, both HC,GM first timers! GM still there! Lovie Smith was hired in 2004. The Bears went to the Super Bowl after the 2006 season. They lost that SB, GM was there 3 years previous to Smith. Tom Coughlin was hired in 2004. The Giants won the Super Bowl after the 2007 season. The Giants were in the SB in 2000, HC was with the Jags HC for 8 years previous. Sean Payton was hired in 2006. The Saints won the Super Bowl after the 2009 season. GM had been there 5 years previous Pete Carroll was hired in 2010. The Seahawks won the Super Bowl after the 2013 season. HC had been HC 2x Jets, Patriots 4 years previous Doug Pederson was hired in 2016. The Eagles won the Super Bowl after the 2017 season. GM had been with the team 6 years previous Sean McVay was hired in 2017. The Rams went to the Super Bowl after the 2018 season. GM had been with the team 5 years previous Numerous other teams made turn arounds from bottom feeders to regular playoff teams within 3 years of bringing in new coaches and/or coach/gms even if they didn't make it to the Super Bowl. If the Bills don't seriously contend for the playoffs in 2019 and win at least 9 games, then there seriously has to be conversations about why. I don't think that a losing record will be acceptable, especially if Allen stays healthy or only misses 1 or 2 games. And yet you went back nearly twenty years... The point was made that these are both a first time head coach and GM. Now go back though that list to see how many had great success as a first time HC, GM...only one team! I never mentioned anything about it taking a half a decade to become relevant and I agreed with Fan In Chicago that we should should see positive results on the field after the third season. I also agree with you that we should see some positive results on the field this season! This year will be McD's third season and it's only Beane's second draft, full off season. Actually this is the one season where his hands weren't tied up with the salary cap. Someone made mention that this regime has had the same record as "awful" Doug Whaley after two seasons @ 15-17. Yet, McD's 2017 Buffalo Bills made the playoffs for the first time in twenty years. This alone should allow the HC some extra time to get things together. (Are Bills fans blind to this?) He is after all a defensive mined HC and the 2018 Buffalo Bills were the #2 overall defense with the #1 pass defense in the league. As I mentioned several times in this thread that the weak link on this team might be the current Buffalo Bills offensive coordinator who has been terrible in the pass game in his past jobs. Daboll has six seasons of being an NFL OC and this is his NFL fifth team. Should the passing offense not greatly improve away from that 30th ranking then McD should be able to make another change to a more successful NFL OC. Josh Allen deserves that. When was the last time that this franchise had a quality offensive coordinator with the offensive talent like a Sean Payton, Doug Pederson, Sean McVay? Like almost never? Perhaps ex-Colts HC Ted Marchibroda, who taught Jim Kelly to call his own plays so after he quit to become the Colts HC again he wouldn't be missed? 1
K-9 Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 2 hours ago, SoTier said: Excuse me, but this is 2019 not 1989, and how teams were built 30 or 35 years ago is totally irrelevant to how things work today. A good organization with a good coaching staff produces a turn around in short order, not taking a half decade or more to become Super Bowl participants. Bill Belichick was hired in 2000. The Patriots won their first Super Bowl after the 2001season. Jon Gruden was hired in 2002. The Bucs won the Super Bowl after the 2002 season. Tony Dungy was hired in 2002. The Colts won the Super Bowl after the 2006 season. John Fox was hired in 2002. The Panthers went to the Super Bowl after the 2003 season. Lovie Smith was hired in 2004. The Bears went to the Super Bowl after the 2006 season. Tom Coughlin was hired in 2004. The Giants won the Super Bowl after the 2007 season. Sean Payton was hired in 2006. The Saints won the Super Bowl after the 2009 season. Pete Carroll was hired in 2010. The Seahawks won the Super Bowl after the 2013 season. Doug Pederson was hired in 2016. The Eagles won the Super Bowl after the 2017 season. Sean McVay was hired in 2017. The Rams went to the Super Bowl after the 2018 season. Numerous other teams made turn arounds from bottom feeders to regular playoff teams within 3 years of bringing in new coaches and/or coach/gms even if they didn't make it to the Super Bowl. If the Bills don't seriously contend for the playoffs in 2019 and win at least 9 games, then there seriously has to be conversations about why. I don't think that a losing record will be acceptable, especially if Allen stays healthy or only misses 1 or 2 games. Half the teams on your list cold hardly be considered "dregs" the year before those respective coaches took over. Anyway, it's always gonna be an apples to oranges comparison given the nature of the game. This Bills regime is going into their third year. If they are like the Saints, Seahawks, Eagles, and Rams and have found their franchise QB, there is no reason to believe they aren't firmly on the same track.
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 6 hours ago, SoTier said: What you seem to be is a reporter whose access to the team is dependent upon putting positive spin on whatever the team does and who gets very defensive when posters here criticize your acceptance of the conditions for your access. Another member of the "No Critiicism of the Bills Allowed" Brigade heard from! ...LMAO....from the head cheerleader for the perpetual "Constant Criticism of The Bills Ad Nauseam" shining star........SMH......a blast at parties...or...wakes........
oldmanfan Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 There are a few people here who think it's cute to be negative about all things Buffalo Bills. Odd way to get your jollies.
John from Riverside Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 3 hours ago, Nihilarian said: And yet you went back nearly twenty years... The point was made that these are both a first time head coach and GM. Now go back though that list to see how many had great success as a first time HC, GM...only one team! I never mentioned anything about it taking a half a decade to become relevant and I agreed with Fan In Chicago that we should should see positive results on the field after the third season. I also agree with you that we should see some positive results on the field this season! This year will be McD's third season and it's only Beane's second draft, full off season. Actually this is the one season where his hands weren't tied up with the salary cap. Someone made mention that this regime has had the same record as "awful" Doug Whaley after two seasons @ 15-17. Yet, McD's 2017 Buffalo Bills made the playoffs for the first time in twenty years. This alone should allow the HC some extra time to get things together. (Are Bills fans blind to this?) He is after all a defensive mined HC and the 2018 Buffalo Bills were the #2 overall defense with the #1 pass defense in the league. As I mentioned several times in this thread that the weak link on this team might be the current Buffalo Bills offensive coordinator who has been terrible in the pass game in his past jobs. Daboll has six seasons of being an NFL OC and this is his NFL fifth team. Should the passing offense not greatly improve away from that 30th ranking then McD should be able to make another change to a more successful NFL OC. Josh Allen deserves that. When was the last time that this franchise had a quality offensive coordinator with the offensive talent like a Sean Payton, Doug Pederson, Sean McVay? Like almost never? Perhaps ex-Colts HC Ted Marchibroda, who taught Jim Kelly to call his own plays so after he quit to become the Colts HC again he wouldn't be missed? I was going to make the point about going back so many years to prove this is not 1989....glad I read the whole thread before pointing.
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 1 hour ago, oldmanfan said: There are a few people here who think it's cute to be negative about all things Buffalo Bills. Odd way to get your jollies. You're the one labeling them "negative." Why are you such a pessimist? They're simply discussing the team. 1
Gugny Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 (edited) 58 minutes ago, 2018 Our Year For Sure said: You're the one labeling them "negative." Why are you such a pessimist? They're simply discussing the team. But there is a handful of posters who search high and low to put a negative spin on even the most positive news/viewpoints. It does get old. I was a miserable Bills fan for three years and it was not fun. I can't imagine being like that all . of . the . time. And some here, are. They say they're fans, but all they do is find anything/everything wrong (whether perceived or real) with the team. It's a tired shtick. LET'S GO METS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Edited June 2, 2019 by Gugny 1
3rdand12 Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 you were a miserable Bills Fan. tis true enough. quite pleased the tides have turned for many of us here.
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