John Warrow’s High Praise For Beane & McDermott Regime

[Shaw66]

57 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

But the long term play was obviously Johnson......

I wasn't as deeply into the Bills in those days as I am now, but I remember reaching this conclusion, too.   Flutie was exciting, and I liked the idea that he could emerge into something like Mahomes - an unconventional guy who is just such a good athlete and such a winner that he's going to make plays for you.  But when I left that dreamworld, Johnson was the obvious choice.  

 

Just doing my part to get to 100.

Edited June 27, 2019 by Shaw66

[reddogblitz]

12 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I wasn't as deeply into the Bills in those days as I am now, but I remember reaching this conclusion, too.   Flutie was exciting, and I liked the idea that he could emerge into something like Mahomes - an unconventional guy who is just such a good athlete and such a winner that he's going to make plays for you.  But when I left that dreamworld, Johnson was the obvious choice.  

 

Just doing my part to get to 100.

 

One page closer

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

All I know is that I watched Johnson choke repeatedly in college while I was at UCLA and was never a supporter. That was my take from the get-go. There was a reason he was drafted in the fourth round, and it had nothing to do with physical talent (his talent was fantastic). I was at UCLA when his brother Bret Johnson, the frickin' #1 high school QB recruit in the country, metaphorically picked up his marbles and went home after failing to win the starting job. He then transferred to Michigan State (my wife's alma mater), where he stunk. The lesson for me: be skeptical of raw-talent guys who don't produce despite being surrounded by incredible talent - which Rob Johnson was at USC.  He had a few good games for the Bills, but doesn't every bad qb have the occasional good game? He was bad, Badol, and the numbers, from college to the NFL, back that up. Again: the most sacked qb ever in terms of sack rate. 

PS - we all expected the Bills to win??? Please. We all HOPED the Bills would win. They were playing on the road against the number one defense in the NFL and against one of the best coaches of that era. 

 

 

Johnson's good games were spectacular.   And even in some of his many lousy games he sometimes managed to rally the team back at the end.    It was like they couldn't access his competitive switch but when they did he was a totally different player.   For being a choker he sure had a lot of late game rallies that seemingly came from nowhere.   Some wins(@TB/@KC) and some losses(@SD/Indy/ theMCM).   When he needed to throw the football late in the game it was at least possible.   Not always the case with DF.  And that Flutie/Johnson matchup in SD was the highlight of that season.   Awesome football game between 2 bad teams.

[BADOLBILZ]

50 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He was a little bit too pro Tyrod Taylor as well for my liking. He was actually uncontroversial around here with his take on that. There were plenty who liked the non-throwing Quarterback though. And I wouldn't quite put Badol in full CoT company. 

 

The question was never if Tyrod was the answer it was why is that the question?    The question was why weren't they drafting a QB?   It's been my mantra for a decade here and thankfully McBeane became the first regime to ever go all-in on a QB on draft day.   .

 

 On a year to year basis Tyrod was a player who produced offense,  was a good fit in Lynn/Roman offense and protected the football.   The Bills nursed three productive seasons out of Tyrod and he was far from their biggest problem.

 

You were on the Case Keenum bandwagon when he became a FA in LA.   That looked like a good take for the year he was in Minnesota.  Last year he was really bad and that would have been a costly error for the Bills and may have delayed their drafting of a QB.    Letting Tyrod play out the string was the better decision than long terming with Keenum.

 

If McBeane make it to a playoff game again and lose.....get fired in subsequent years and then the Bills go on another 10 year losing streak.........people will opine for them like they do "Wade"..........and all people will remember from my takes are the things that I didn't like about them, because that is all anyone really cares to discuss.    I say that I thought all of their first round picks were good values where taken and that's a "non-take" because of course every apologist thinks that's OBVIOUS right now.

[reddogblitz]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

All I know is that I watched Johnson choke repeatedly in college while I was at UCLA and was never a supporter. That was my take from the get-go. There was a reason he was drafted in the fourth round, and it had nothing to do with physical talent

 

I remember in like 2001 or 2002 Rob was on one of those QB competitions where they throw at sleds with targets on them.  Rob was ahead most of the way but at the end, the other guy hit a long one to go ahead by 1 point.  All Rob had to do was his the short 10 yard one and he would have won.  But what did he do?  He wound up and tried to hit the longest one and missed.  He lost.

 

Afterwards when asked why he just didn't go for the short one for the win, he said he didn't want to win it that way.  So he went long.

 

Loser. 

[GunnerBill]

22 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

The question was never if Tyrod was the answer it was why is that the question?    The question was why weren't they drafting a QB?   It's been my mantra for a decade here and thankfully McBeane became the first regime to ever go all-in on a QB on draft day.   .

 

 On a year to year basis Tyrod was a player who produced offense,  was a good fit in Lynn/Roman offense and protected the football.   The Bills nursed three productive seasons out of Tyrod and he was far from their biggest problem.

 

You were on the Case Keenum bandwagon when he became a FA in LA.   That looked like a good take for the year he was in Minnesota.  Last year he was really bad and that would have been a costly error for the Bills and may have delayed their drafting of a QB.    Letting Tyrod play out the string was the better decision than long terming with Keenum.

 

If McBeane make it to a playoff game again and lose.....get fired in subsequent years and then the Bills go on another 10 year losing streak.........people will opine for them like they do "Wade"..........and all people will remember from my takes are the things that I didn't like about them, because that is all anyone really cares to discuss.    I say that I thought all of their first round picks were good values where taken and that's a "non-take" because of course every apologist thinks that's OBVIOUS right now.

 

No. I'd still have rather had Keenum for 2 years than the non-throwing Quarterback. I was always on the "just freaking draft a guy" bus. But Tyrod had one good year in Buffalo. His first year. Once the tape was out on him he sucked. Consistently and often. You were by no means one of the worst. But you were an apologist for him. By the end I was almost in Gug territory. I didn't want him benched for Nathan Peterman - but if Tyrod Taylor had started 2018 as the Bills starter I'd have turned the tv off. I couldn't watch anymore of that insipid crap he called Quarterback play. 

[eball]

You know a Bills thread has jumped the shark when it becomes a Flutie v. Johnson debate.  Regardless of what anyone thought at the time, LOL at BADOL still trying to defend that miserable QB today.

[dave mcbride]

37 minutes ago, eball said:

You know a Bills thread has jumped the shark when it becomes a Flutie v. Johnson debate.  Regardless of what anyone thought at the time, LOL at BADOL still trying to defend that miserable QB today.

Yeah, Flutie v. Johnson is the reducto ad absurdum of all-over-the-map discussions like this. This tends to be where it always ends up if the thread goes on long enough.

[oldmanfan]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

Yeah, Flutie v. Johnson is the reducto ad absurdum of all-over-the-map discussions like this. This tends to be where it always ends up if the thread goes on long enough.

Well, I could bring up Kemp vs. Lamonica.  One constant in the history of Bills fans is the backup QB is always considered better than the starter.  There were even some folks who wanted Reich over Kelly.

[dave mcbride]

13 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Johnson's good games were spectacular.   And even in some of his many lousy games he sometimes managed to rally the team back at the end.    It was like they couldn't access his competitive switch but when they did he was a totally different player.   For being a choker he sure had a lot of late game rallies that seemingly came from nowhere.   Some wins(@TB/@KC) and some losses(@SD/Indy/ theMCM).   When he needed to throw the football late in the game it was at least possible.   Not always the case with DF.  And that Flutie/Johnson matchup in SD was the highlight of that season.   Awesome football game between 2 bad teams.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200301050pit.htm

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201211110min.htm

 

Point being, even bad QBs have the occasional good game. Johnson was terrible overall, straight up. Please don’t defend him. Championing that SD-Buffalo game is like finding a passable slice of Bocce’s pepperoni pizza in a deep dumpster dive.

 

In the two seasons where he was the man - 2000 and 2001 - he crapped the bed. 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2019 by dave mcbride

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

44 minutes ago, eball said:

You know a Bills thread has jumped the shark when it becomes a Flutie v. Johnson debate.  Regardless of what anyone thought at the time, LOL at BADOL still trying to defend that miserable QB today.

 

I haven't seen him defending flutie.

[dave mcbride]

5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Well, I could bring up Kemp vs. Lamonica.  One constant in the history of Bills fans is the backup QB is always considered better than the starter.  There were even some folks who wanted Reich over Kelly.

The board wasn’t around for those two. It was around for F v. J. That’s what I’m referring to.

[Bill from NYC]

15 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I don't see it that way at all.

 

The Titans could very well have played Flutie and Johnson entirely differently and gotten a worse performance from DF.

 

The reason they were on the road in Nashville was because of two HORRENDOUS games that Flutie had at home against two bad teams.......NYG and Raiders.     He was a 46% passer in those games.    Those teams employed a "keep Flutie in the pocket" approach to stunningly upset the Bills on their own turf.

 

 What really stood out was that at the end of those games when Flutie needed to move the ball in the air the Bills were paralyzed.   The book was out.  

 

Contrast that to how Johnson finished the game in TN.

 

In the playoffs you are going to get defenses designed specifically to stop players..........I sincerely doubt Flutie would have been an answer because I doubt the Titans would have shot themselves in the foot over pursuing Flutie when all you had to do was make him stay in the pocket.   Simple as that.

 

In an ideal situation the HC has the power of a Don Shula and plays both Flutie and Johnson the way Shula used Woodley/Strock to get a team to a SB.    But that level of power and accountability was not happening with Wade.   Great DC.......had a good style of building systems around players on both sides of the ball as a HC that served him well..........but a guy with little attention to detail and therefore never going to be great enough to last more than a few seasons let alone pull off a 2 QB system.  

I still believe that the problem with that team was blocking. When teams would keep Flutie in the pocket our OL wasn't strong enough to run successfully, or to hold off the oncoming pass rush. It was as if the team out and out refused to provide blocking, opting mostly for defensive backs and running backs. Flutie was good at masking this deficiency but the better coaches were able to exploit it. I looked at pro football reference and checked out the Bills rosters from the Flutie years and the OL had holes big enough to drive a train through.

 

I will never, ever understand how so many football professionals were just so neglectful and even stupid.

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200301050pit.htm

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201211110min.htm

 

Point being, even bad QBs have the occasional good game. Johnson was terrible overall, straight up. Please don’t defend him. Championing that SD-Buffalo game is like finding a passable slice of Bocce’s pepperoni pizza in a deep dumpster dive.

 

In the two seasons where he was the man - 2000 and 2001 - he crapped the bed. 

 

 

 

 

I think you mean "even bad QBs CAN have the occasional good game".     Peterman........perhaps not.

 

I'm not sure why people need to go to such lengths to exaggerate the level of incompetence of Bills QB's..............we all know that every one of them has sucked since Kelly(and he sucked in his last season).   Johnson was a bust but he had his moments........INCLUDING leading his team to the go-ahead drive at the end on the road in the playoffs the last time the Bills were contenders 20 years ago.     

 

If Josh Allen doesn't pan out then in 5 years the same people who are excusing his rookie production will be mocking it.   I call it like it is.   He was a bad QB last year.   He showed flashes.......but like you said bad QB's (can) have occasional good games.   I've been a Josh Allen supporter since the jump but he might be bad........we don't know yet.    

 

POINT BEING,  when the list is all ***** performing QB's you can choose to look for things done right.    My points are absolutely valid..........Johnson had some tremendous games and great finishes.   

 

[eball]

13 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I think you mean "even bad QBs CAN have the occasional good game".     Peterman........perhaps not.

 

I'm not sure why people need to go to such lengths to exaggerate the level of incompetence of Bills QB's..............we all know that every one of them has sucked since Kelly(and he sucked in his last season).   Johnson was a bust but he had his moments........INCLUDING leading his team to the go-ahead drive at the end on the road in the playoffs the last time the Bills were contenders 20 years ago.     

 

If Josh Allen doesn't pan out then in 5 years the same people who are excusing his rookie production will be mocking it.   I call it like it is.   He was a bad QB last year.   He showed flashes.......but like you said bad QB's (can) have occasional good games.   I've been a Josh Allen supporter since the jump but he might be bad........we don't know yet.    

 

POINT BEING,  when the list is all ***** performing QB's you can choose to look for things done right.    My points are absolutely valid..........Johnson had some tremendous games and great finishes.   

 

 

Never in my life have I seen someone with such a zest to prove himself right.  You're a legend in your own mind...

[BADOLBILZ]

7 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

I still believe that the problem with that team was blocking. When teams would keep Flutie in the pocket our OL wasn't strong enough to run successfully, or to hold off the oncoming pass rush. It was as if the team out and out refused to provide blocking, opting mostly for defensive backs and running backs. Flutie was good at masking this deficiency but the better coaches were able to exploit it. I looked at pro football reference and checked out the Bills rosters from the Flutie years and the OL had holes big enough to drive a train through.

 

I will never, ever understand how so many football professionals were just so neglectful and even stupid.

 

 

Yeah Flutie covered up a lot of weaknesses on the OL in pass pro...........he got Jerry Ostroski PAID even though he was pretty lousy player.

 

The OL was blocking better leading up to that TN game but then in "Bruce Smith gets the flu" fashion the Bills two starting tackles were ruled out at the last minute for the Titans game. 

 

That would have been their toughest game of the playoffs........that Bills defense was stifling.........better than the Tampa D that took the Rams to the brink in St. Louis. 

 

People who think Rob Johnson had a bad game should check out McNair's line:  76 yards passing on 24 attempts.  

 

That Bills team could've been a Ravens/Bucs-esque SB champion that year..............or they could have been shut down completely in TN by the most basic of defense's like Flutie was at home versus NYG and Raiders.    It was a fragile situation.   Shame they didn't have the guts to use both QB's that year.........could have had homefield at least until Jacksonville anyway.     

Edited June 28, 2019 by BADOLBILZ

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, eball said:

 

Never in my life have I seen someone with such a zest to prove himself right.  You're a legend in your own mind...

 

I wish I was A LOT more wrong about the Bills organization..........but I've been about as close to spot-on about the organization as possible.

 

You on the other hand.......you want to excuse every new regime.........until they have one foot in the grave or are gone.......THEN you trash everything about them............you just have an ignorant outlook on the Bills(which isn't helped by your utter cluelessness regarding the rest of the NFL or college football).

 

In retrospect........you've enjoyed NOTHING!      Except the refreshments.    

[SoTier]

On 6/27/2019 at 1:40 PM, oldmanfan said:

They made their choice.  You have choices too. 

 

I did.  I no longer am a season ticket holder.

[eball]

13 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I wish I was A LOT more wrong about the Bills organization..........but I've been about as close to spot-on about the organization as possible.

 

You on the other hand.......you want to excuse every new regime.........until they have one foot in the grave or are gone.......THEN you trash everything about them............you just have an ignorant outlook on the Bills(which isn't helped by your utter cluelessness regarding the rest of the NFL or college football).

 

In retrospect........you've enjoyed NOTHING!      Except the refreshments.    

 

So THIS post gets a "like" and an "awesome" from SoTier and BillsVet...hilarious.  You may think you're right about a lot of things, BADOL, but you're dead-ass wrong about how I view the Bills and life in general.  I enjoy the hell out of the Bills, this board, and even to a certain extent sparring with the likes of you.  It's fascinating to watch how people interact and wonder what they are like when not behind a keyboard.

 

You go on with your self-aggrandizing takes and I'll sit back, shaking my head and chuckling...

[oldmanfan]

6 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

I did.  I no longer am a season ticket holder.

Too bad.