John Warrow’s High Praise For Beane & McDermott Regime

[Royale with Cheese]

I think we should close this thread now because it's 91 pages...same number as Oliver.  That means he will have an excellent year....its an omen.

[reddogblitz]

9 minutes ago, mannc said:

How about using OJ Simpson as a decoy/blocking back for his first THREE seasons in the league?

 

I'm going to have to trust your judgement on this one.  It was before my time as a Bills fan.  I was a Cowboys fan growing up in Dallas.  The only exposure I got to OJ was watching him on every Monday Night Football half time highlights right after Howard said "Miami's got the oranges, but Buffalo's got THE JUICE".

 

And,  I did see him win the MVP on January 21, 1973 in the Pro Bowl at Texas Stadium.

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, Rico said:

If you really want to learn, here’s a good place to start.  

http://tinyurl.com/y5ujy9pw

 

I would have been happier with that Peter Pan picture

[mannc]

3 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I'm going to have to trust your judgement on this one.  It was before my time as a Bills fan.  I was a Cowboys fan growing up in Dallas.  The only exposure I got to OJ was watching him on every Monday Night Football half time highlights right after Howard said "Miami's got the oranges, but Buffalo's got THE JUICE".

 

And,  I did see him win the MVP on January 21, 1973 in the Pro Bowl at Texas Stadium.

The Bills’ coaching and QB play in the early 70s was the worst in the history of the franchise, if not the history of the entire league.

[reddogblitz]

31 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

No doubt he shouldn't have been benched when he was, but for as big of a deal as people make about it, they had that game won until a special teams gaffe.

 

I'm gonna just disagree with this.  No way Flutie fumbles out of the back of the end zone for a safety leading to Tennessee scoring their only TD of the game on the resulting free kick.  A 9 point swing.

 

Flutie plays, we win it going away and probably go to SB.  Flutie gets his number retired.

 

Biggest shot to foot in Bills franchise history.

 

And yeah, the kick off was really dumb too.

Edited June 27, 2019 by reddogblitz

[thebandit27]

12 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I'm gonna just disagree with this.  No way Flutie fumbles out of the back of the end zone for a safety leading to Tennessee scoring their only TD of the game on the resulting free kick.  A 9 point swing.

 

Flutie plays, we win it going away and probably go to SB.  Flutie gets his number retired.

 

Biggest shot to foot in Bills franchise history.

 

And yeah, the kick off was really dumb too.

 

Disagree with what?  That people make too big of a deal out of it?  Maybe, but like I said: they had that game won.

[dave mcbride]

12 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I'm gonna just disagree with this.  No way Flutie fumbles out of the back of the end zone for a safety leading to Tennessee scoring their only TD of the game on the resulting free kick.  A 9 point swing.

 

Flutie plays, we win it going away and probably go to SB.  Flutie gets his number retired.

 

Biggest shot to foot in Bills franchise history.

Nor would he have been sacked 6 times and thrown for under 125 yards against a pass D that ranked 25th in passing yards allowed and 27th in passing TDs allowed. 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Baldo, you are more criticized on here than any other poster (except SoTier) and the reason is the quality of your posts and this "I'm smarter than you attitude".

Moving goal posts is the best explanation of you.  

 

 

Most controversial takes?.........absolutely.

 

Most accurate controversial takes for 2 decades and running?........absolutely.........but the takes are just controversial because the team has been bad and certain fans don't like to hear that.........it even depresses some of those who don't keep it in perspective as entertainment.

 

"Moving goal posts" is re-directing the argument without answering issues......................I have SPECIFICALLY and thoroughly answered so much of your nonsense in this thread that I am aware of the fact that it appears that I am arguing to your level of competence......as DC Tom wouldn't say.     That is NOT moving the goal posts.   That's disagreeing with you with reasons.

 

Just another case of you using a popular "phrase/term" that doesn't accurately apply to the topic of discussion.

 

[BADOLBILZ]

24 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Nor would he have been sacked 6 times and thrown for under 125 yards against a pass D that ranked 25th in passing yards allowed and 27th in passing TDs allowed. 

 

I don't see it that way at all.

 

The Titans could very well have played Flutie and Johnson entirely differently and gotten a worse performance from DF.

 

The reason they were on the road in Nashville was because of two HORRENDOUS games that Flutie had at home against two bad teams.......NYG and Raiders.     He was a 46% passer in those games.    Those teams employed a "keep Flutie in the pocket" approach to stunningly upset the Bills on their own turf.

 

 What really stood out was that at the end of those games when Flutie needed to move the ball in the air the Bills were paralyzed.   The book was out.  

 

Contrast that to how Johnson finished the game in TN.

 

In the playoffs you are going to get defenses designed specifically to stop players..........I sincerely doubt Flutie would have been an answer because I doubt the Titans would have shot themselves in the foot over pursuing Flutie when all you had to do was make him stay in the pocket.   Simple as that.

 

In an ideal situation the HC has the power of a Don Shula and plays both Flutie and Johnson the way Shula used Woodley/Strock to get a team to a SB.    But that level of power and accountability was not happening with Wade.   Great DC.......had a good style of building systems around players on both sides of the ball as a HC that served him well..........but a guy with little attention to detail and therefore never going to be great enough to last more than a few seasons let alone pull off a 2 QB system.  

Edited June 27, 2019 by BADOLBILZ

[BADOLBILZ]

44 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I'm gonna just disagree with this.  No way Flutie fumbles out of the back of the end zone for a safety leading to Tennessee scoring their only TD of the game on the resulting free kick.  A 9 point swing.

 

Flutie plays, we win it going away and probably go to SB.  Flutie gets his number retired.

 

Biggest shot to foot in Bills franchise history.

 

And yeah, the kick off was really dumb too.

 

 

Flutie lead the Bills to a 5 turnover performance in the playoffs the season before......... including losing the game with a fumble at the goal line when they had a chance to tie it!

 

Fumbles don't get much bigger than that.   That was literally a game ender.   Why people think Flutie was some playoff hero in waiting is beyond me.........that Bills team should have never lost that game in Miami.   

 

[dave mcbride]

7 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I don't see it that way at all.

 

The Titans could very well have played Flutie and Johnson entirely differently and gotten a worse performance from DF.

 

The reason they were on the road in Nashville was because of two HORRENDOUS games that Flutie had at home against two bad teams.......NYG and Raiders.     He was a 46% passer in those games.    Those teams employed a "keep Flutie in the pocket" approach to stunningly upset the Bills on their own turf.

 

 What really stood out was that at the end of those games when Flutie needed to move the ball in the air the Bills were paralyzed.   The book was out.  

 

Contrast that to how Johnson finished the game in TN.

 

In the playoffs you are going to get defenses designed specifically to stop players..........I sincerely doubt Flutie would have been an answer because I doubt the Titans would have shot themselves in the foot over pursuing Flutie when all you had to do was make him stay in the pocket.   Simple as that.

 

In an ideal situation the HC has the power of a Don Shula and plays both Flutie and Johnson the way Shula used Woodley/Strock to get a team to a SB.    But that level of power and accountability was not happening with Wade.   Great DC.......had a good style of building systems around players on both sides of the ball as a HC that served him well..........but a guy with little attention to detail and therefore never going to be great enough to last more than a few seasons let alone pull off a 2 QB system.  

The *one* thing the TN defense could do that season was sack the qb (54 sacks).  Combine that with the fact that there isn't a qb in NFL history who has been sacked at a higher rate than Rob Johnson, and you get a truly unholy marriage. But don't take it from me; take it from Wade Phillips, who had no desire to start Johnson (who sucked his entire career and was a huge disappointment at SC given the ridiculous talent around him). As for Flutie,  he had played well in his previous two games - against AZ and against NE in a howling rainstorm. As for the Giants game, if either Thurman or Jonathan Linton can actually get a measly yard on 3rd and then 4th down in NYG territory with just over two minutes to go, the game would have been over. But they didn't, and the Bills couldn't stop Kerry Collins from marching down the field to set up the game winning FG. 

 

Anyway, Johnson sucked, and while Flutie had flaws in his game, he was, without question, a better player. 

[Royale with Cheese]

28 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Most controversial takes?.........absolutely.

 

Most accurate controversial takes for 2 decades and running?........absolutely.........but the takes are just controversial because the team has been bad and certain fans don't like to hear that.........it even depresses some of those who don't keep it in perspective as entertainment.

 

"Moving goal posts" is re-directing the argument without answering issues......................I have SPECIFICALLY and thoroughly answered so much of your nonsense in this thread that I am aware of the fact that it appears that I am arguing to your level of competence......as DC Tom wouldn't say.     That is NOT moving the goal posts.   That's disagreeing with you with reasons.

 

Just another case of you using a popular "phrase/term" that doesn't accurately apply to the topic of discussion.

 

 

I guess we just see things differently don't we?

[dave mcbride]

12 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Flutie lead the Bills to a 5 turnover performance in the playoffs the season before......... including losing the game with a fumble at the goal line when they had a chance to tie it!

 

Fumbles don't get much bigger than that.   That was literally a game ender.   Why people think Flutie was some playoff hero in waiting is beyond me.........that Bills team should have never lost that game in Miami.   

 

You know as well as i that he lit up the number 1 defense (https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef1998) in the league like a Christmas tree in that game, and while he made some mistakes, he moved the ball up and down the field all day. Johnson did the opposite against a significantly worse pass defense. I'm not saying Flutie was without flaws, but he was a clear shot better than the QB who represented probably the biggest mistake in franchise history. The Bills spent the #9 overall pick plus a fourth for a qb who went 0-5-1 against ND and UCLA despite having, in succession, Curtis Conway, Johnny Morton, and Keyshawn Johnson as his #1s and Tony Boselli as his LT. He choked in every one of those games (I watched them).

8 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I guess we just see things differently don't we?

Badol is a great poster and always worth reading, but even he will confess that he was a massive booster of the disaster that was Rob Johnson when that whole thing went down. All of us make mistakes, of course.

Edited June 27, 2019 by dave mcbride

[BADOLBILZ]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

The *one* thing the TN defense could do that season was sack the qb (54 sacks).  Combine that with the fact that there isn't a qb in NFL history who has been sacked at a higher rate than Rob Johnson, and you get a truly unholy marriage. But don't take it from me; take it from Wade Phillips, who had no desire to start Johnson (who sucked his entire career and was a huge disappointment at SC given the ridiculous talent around him). As for Flutie,  he had played well in his previous two games - against AZ and against NE in a howling rainstorm. As for the Giants game, if either Thurman or Jonathan Linton can actually get a measly yard on 3rd and then 4th down in NYG territory with just over two minutes to go, the game would have been over. But they didn't, and the Bills couldn't stop Kerry Collins from marching down the field to set up the game winning FG. 

 

Anyway, Johnson sucked, and while Flutie had flaws in his game, he was, without question, a better player. 

 

 

Stop right there.

 

The woeful Raiders and Giants went against their style of defense against Flutie as well.

 

ANY defense can just contain the QB and squat on short throws in the secondary..............it makes defense VERY simple.

 

And I know that Phillips didn't want Flutie............Phillips played him all season and the Bills struggled to score points...........he didn't emphasize ST's and then quit his job over Ronnie Jones a year later.........what can I say he wasn't that smart of a HC.  

 

And Flutie did NOT play well against Arizona.............they took the Bills to OT........he just played A LOT.

 

Watching that offense that year was brutal.

 

But again the solution wasn't necessarily EITHER of those QB's.......if anything it was BOTH of them and that wasn't going to happen with a guy like Wade Phillips as HC. 

 

[dave mcbride]

18 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Stop right there.

 

The woeful Raiders and Giants went against their style of defense against Flutie as well.

 

ANY defense can just contain the QB and squat on short throws in the secondary..............it makes defense VERY simple.

 

And I know that Phillips didn't want Flutie............Phillips played him all season and the Bills struggled to score points...........he didn't emphasize ST's and then quit his job over Ronnie Jones a year later.........what can I say he wasn't that smart of a HC.  

 

And Flutie did NOT play well against Arizona.............they took the Bills to OT........he just played A LOT.

 

Watching that offense that year was brutal.

 

But again the solution wasn't necessarily EITHER of those QB's.......if anything it was BOTH of them and that wasn't going to happen with a guy like Wade Phillips as HC. 

 

?? Phillips all but SAID he wanted Flutie in the years after. Wilson ordered it.  From the horse's mouth (in a 2017 piece co-written by Phillips and Vic Carucci in the News): "The next day, our owner, Ralph Wilson, called our GM, John Butler, to tell him he wanted Rob to start our wild card playoff game at Tennessee."

 

Also, what are you taking about re: AZ? The Bills controlled that game throughout and won 31-21. They beat NE in OT because a) the weather was basically a nor'easter and b) Jonathan Linton not only lost two fumbles (once inside the red zone), but got stoned on a 4th and 1 play. The Bills completely dominated the yardage stats in that game. 

Re the 1998 Bills offense, my do memories fade. They were 11th in yards, 16th in points, and 7th in offensive DVOA. My strong recollection from that season is that everyone leaped on Flutie after the Baltimore game, but as it became clear over the next 16 months, that defense was arguably the greatest unit in NFL history. They finished first in DVOA that season and the next. 

 

Most importantly, I am skeptical of anyone who argues that Johnson/Flutie was six of one/half dozen of the other. Johnson stunk, pure and simple. Outside of throwing a very nice ball when the pressure wasn't there and running reasonably well in the open field, he was bad in every other aspect of the game (especially the mental part). 

Edited June 27, 2019 by dave mcbride

[BADOLBILZ]

5 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

You know as well as i that he lit up the number 1 defense (https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef1998) in the league like a Christmas tree in that game, and while he made some mistakes, he moved the ball up and down the field all day. Johnson did the opposite against a significantly worse pass defense. I'm not saying Flutie was without flaws, but he was a clear shot better than the QB who represented probably the biggest mistake in franchise history. The Bills spent the #9 overall pick plus a fourth for a qb who went 0-5-1 against ND and UCLA despite having, in succession, Curtis Conway, Johnny Morton, and Keyshawn Johnson as his #1s and Tony Boselli as his LT. He choked in every one of those games (I watched them).

Badol is a great poster and always worth reading, but even he will confess that he was a massive booster of the disaster that was Rob Johnson when that whole thing went down. All of us make mistakes, of course.

 

 

Flutie was careless with the football in a playoff game.    It happened.   We all expected the Bills to win that game and they moved the ball but what is the #1 job of the quarterback dave?   PROTECT THE FOOTBALL

 

I supported Rob Johnson plenty but even then I said the answer was both.    I was pleased when they paid Flutie.   Money spent on 2 QB's was money well spent IMO.  I thought we *might* actually see the day when they would alternate them.  That was a controversial opinion for some reason even though a HC in our division had done it years earlier and gotten the team to a SB.

 

But the long term play was obviously Johnson.......the cap wasn't going allow them to keep both even if some on here didn't believe that a cap crisis was looming.  I can't remember your take but there was almost UNIVERSAL denial about the seriousness of the cap crisis.  I assume that's the period you are referring to.   Flutie was old and as it turned out Johnson flamed out but they absolutely made the right choice keeping Johnson over Flutie.   They had to see what they had in him.........he played some great games and some awful games........but a late 30's Flutie was not the future for a young team.

[Patrick Duffy]

28 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

You know as well as i that he lit up the number 1 defense (https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef1998) in the league like a Christmas tree in that game, and while he made some mistakes, he moved the ball up and down the field all day. Johnson did the opposite against a significantly worse pass defense. I'm not saying Flutie was without flaws, but he was a clear shot better than the QB who represented probably the biggest mistake in franchise history. The Bills spent the #9 overall pick plus a fourth for a qb who went 0-5-1 against ND and UCLA despite having, in succession, Curtis Conway, Johnny Morton, and Keyshawn Johnson as his #1s and Tony Boselli as his LT. He choked in every one of those games (I watched them).

Badol is a great poster and always worth reading, but even he will confess that he was a massive booster of the disaster that was Rob Johnson when that whole thing went down. All of us make mistakes, of course.

 I disagree.

[dave mcbride]

9 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Flutie was careless with the football in a playoff game.    It happened.   We all expected the Bills to win that game and they moved the ball but what is the #1 job of the quarterback dave?   PROTECT THE FOOTBALL

 

I supported Rob Johnson plenty but even then I said the answer was both.    I was pleased when they paid Flutie.   Money spent on 2 QB's was money well spent IMO.  I thought we *might* actually see the day when they would alternate them.  That was a controversial opinion for some reason even though a HC in our division had done it years earlier and gotten the team to a SB.

 

But the long term play was obviously Johnson.......the cap wasn't going allow them to keep both even if some on here didn't believe that a cap crisis was looming.  I can't remember your take but there was almost UNIVERSAL denial about the seriousness of the cap crisis.  I assume that's the period you are referring to.   Flutie was old and as it turned out Johnson flamed out but they absolutely made the right choice keeping Johnson over Flutie.   They had to see what they had in him.........he played some great games and some awful games........but a late 30's Flutie was not the future for a young team.

All I know is that I watched Johnson choke repeatedly in college while I was at UCLA and was never a supporter. That was my take from the get-go. There was a reason he was drafted in the fourth round, and it had nothing to do with physical talent (his talent was fantastic). I was at UCLA when his brother Bret Johnson, the frickin' #1 high school QB recruit in the country, metaphorically picked up his marbles and went home after failing to win the starting job. He then transferred to Michigan State (my wife's alma mater), where he stunk. The lesson for me: be skeptical of raw-talent guys who don't produce despite being surrounded by incredible talent - which Rob Johnson was at USC.  He had a few good games for the Bills, but doesn't every bad qb have the occasional good game? He was bad, Badol, and the numbers, from college to the NFL, back that up. Again: the most sacked qb ever in terms of sack rate. 

9 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Flutie was careless with the football in a playoff game.    It happened.   We all expected the Bills to win that game and they moved the ball but what is the #1 job of the quarterback dave?   PROTECT THE FOOTBALL

 

I supported Rob Johnson plenty but even then I said the answer was both.    I was pleased when they paid Flutie.   Money spent on 2 QB's was money well spent IMO.  I thought we *might* actually see the day when they would alternate them.  That was a controversial opinion for some reason even though a HC in our division had done it years earlier and gotten the team to a SB.

 

But the long term play was obviously Johnson.......the cap wasn't going allow them to keep both even if some on here didn't believe that a cap crisis was looming.  I can't remember your take but there was almost UNIVERSAL denial about the seriousness of the cap crisis.  I assume that's the period you are referring to.   Flutie was old and as it turned out Johnson flamed out but they absolutely made the right choice keeping Johnson over Flutie.   They had to see what they had in him.........he played some great games and some awful games........but a late 30's Flutie was not the future for a young team.

PS - we all expected the Bills to win??? Please. We all HOPED the Bills would win. They were playing on the road against the number one defense in the NFL and against one of the best coaches of that era. 

Edited June 27, 2019 by dave mcbride

[GunnerBill]

51 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Badol is a great poster and always worth reading, but even he will confess that he was a massive booster of the disaster that was Rob Johnson when that whole thing went down. All of us make mistakes, of course.

 

He was a little bit too pro Tyrod Taylor as well for my liking. He was actually uncontroversial around here with his take on that. There were plenty who liked the non-throwing Quarterback though. And I wouldn't quite put Badol in full CoT company. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Yeah, well benching Flutie in the playoff game is complaint worthy FOREVER IMHO.

 

You can pry my cold dead fingers off that complaint.

 

Lol flutopians