Chuck Wagon Posted April 23, 2019 Posted April 23, 2019 I certainly understand the desire for a quality TE. Personally I love the position and what a really good one can unlock on the field and it's been far too long since we've had one. My concern with Hock is many seem to be expecting Gronk 2.0. I don't think that's the case, or even at the level of guys like Ertz / Kelce / Kittle. Feels to me to be the "Kyle Williams" of TEs, always recognized as a very good player by football heads but not ever anyone that stands out as a difference maker that must be on the defensive game plan or on the short list of the best at the position from the common fan. If your expectation is he's a high quality starter at the position who'll fit right in on a blue collar team and you are fine taking that at 9, that's fine. But if you've talked yourself into the next Gronk or immediately at the level of the current triumvirate at the top of the position, you need to tap the brakes. 4 1
JaCrispy Posted April 23, 2019 Posted April 23, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said: I certainly understand the desire for a quality TE. Personally I love the position and what a really good one can unlock on the field and it's been far too long since we've had one. My concern with Hock is many seem to be expecting Gronk 2.0. I don't think that's the case, or even at the level of guys like Ertz / Kelce / Kittle. Feels to me to be the "Kyle Williams" of TEs, always recognized as a very good player by football heads but not ever anyone that stands out as a difference maker that must be on the defensive game plan or on the short list of the best at the position from the common fan. If your expectation is he's a high quality starter at the position who'll fit right in on a blue collar team and you are fine taking that at 9, that's fine. But if you've talked yourself into the next Gronk or immediately at the level of the current triumvirate at the top of the position, you need to tap the brakes. I compare Hock more to Jason Witten. Edited April 23, 2019 by JaCrispy 1
Chicken Boo Posted April 23, 2019 Posted April 23, 2019 There's an unknown TE lurking in rounds 2-4 that will have as much or even a greater impact than Hockensen. I am diametrically opposed to drafting any tight end inside the top 10. In my eyes, that's a luxury pick and the Bills have far more pressing needs.
Andrew Son Posted April 23, 2019 Posted April 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Chicken Boo said: There's an unknown TE lurking in rounds 2-4 that will have as much or even a greater impact than Hockensen. I am diametrically opposed to drafting any tight end inside the top 10. In my eyes, that's a luxury pick and the Bills have far more pressing needs. To me, the thing that separates Hock is that he's an every down player. Pretty unique these days with basically jacked up Wr's playing the position. 1
GunnerBill Posted April 23, 2019 Posted April 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, SWATeam said: To me, the thing that separates Hock is that he's an every down player. Pretty unique these days with basically jacked up Wr's playing the position. I think this class has guys who can do it all much more than some modern draft classes. 1
Chuck Wagon Posted April 23, 2019 Posted April 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, SWATeam said: To me, the thing that separates Hock is that he's an every down player. Pretty unique these days with basically jacked up Wr's playing the position. A "franchise" LT is also on the field for every play. I've waffled all over on Hock. Like I said, I love the position and am ready for a clear cut, top half of the league starter there. But the 9th pick just feels too rich. A guy like Jonah Williams or Andre Dillard being the next "Joe Staley" just has more value than a guy like Hock being the next "Jason Witten". 1
Andrew Son Posted April 23, 2019 Posted April 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Chuck Wagon said: A "franchise" LT is also on the field for every play. I've waffled all over on Hock. Like I said, I love the position and am ready for a clear cut, top half of the league starter there. But the 9th pick just feels too rich. A guy like Jonah Williams or Andre Dillard being the next "Joe Staley" just has more value than a guy like Hock being the next "Jason Witten". Sure, but I don't like Dillard for this team. He has shorter arms than Jonah and I have no idea if he can run block. But I think Jonah is on the short list of possibilities at 9- along with Hock and the dlineman.
Reed83HOF Posted April 23, 2019 Author Posted April 23, 2019 8 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said: A "franchise" LT is also on the field for every play. I've waffled all over on Hock. Like I said, I love the position and am ready for a clear cut, top half of the league starter there. But the 9th pick just feels too rich. A guy like Jonah Williams or Andre Dillard being the next "Joe Staley" just has more value than a guy like Hock being the next "Jason Witten". and I still don't like them at #9. Once the top tier of like 7-8 guys is gone and they are taken before us. I would look to slide back if we can get good value (#2 would be ideal). After these guys are gone: Bosa Oliver Allen Williams Taylor White Murray (not a fan, but he is a top prospect) I feel like you are right near that mid-tier where the overall draft grades aren't separating the overall talent that much. We either swing to move up to get one of those guys or slide back to get more draft capital to move back in the bottom of RD1 and end up taking 2 of the best available from DL, OT, WR, maybe TE outside of the top 13ish
Chuck Wagon Posted April 23, 2019 Posted April 23, 2019 Just now, Reed83HOF said: and I still don't like them at #9. Once the top tier of like 7-8 guys is gone and they are taken before us. I would look to slide back if we can get good value (#2 would be ideal). After these guys are gone: Bosa Oliver Allen Williams Taylor White Murray (not a fan, but he is a top prospect) I feel like you are right near that mid-tier where the overall draft grades aren't separating the overall talent that much. We either swing to move up to get one of those guys or slide back to get more draft capital to move back in the bottom of RD1 and end up taking 2 of the best available from DL, OT, WR, maybe TE outside of the top 13ish Oh I completely agree. That's why I've been on team "trade up" for a while now. If EVERYONE wants to trade back, the "moneyball" move says the value is in moving up. 9 feels like "no mans land", getting the same caliber player you'd get at ~15 but the guys in the top tier will be off the board. I understand a team can always benefit from having more good players on rookie deals, but we are in a cap position for the next several years where needs can be filled easily in the market and we need to add as many young blue chip players as possible. 1
Reed83HOF Posted April 23, 2019 Author Posted April 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said: Oh I completely agree. That's why I've been on team "trade up" for a while now. If EVERYONE wants to trade back, the "moneyball" move says the value is in moving up. 9 feels like "no mans land", getting the same caliber player you'd get at ~15 but the guys in the top tier will be off the board. I understand a team can always benefit from having more good players on rookie deals, but we are in a cap position for the next several years where needs can be filled easily in the market and we need to add as many young blue chip players as possible. I'm right there with you!
Nihilarian Posted April 23, 2019 Posted April 23, 2019 25 minutes ago, SWATeam said: To me, the thing that separates Hock is that he's an every down player. Pretty unique these days with basically jacked up Wr's playing the position. I agree. From the cover 1 link I posted, https://www.cover1.net/buffalo-bills-2019-nfl-draft-first-round-pick-predictions/2/ "Drafting Hockenson would give Josh Allen another weapon, one that closely resembles another tight end that offensive coordinator Brian Daboll has coached in Rob Gronkowski. The junior tight end has the ability to be a factor in the run and pass game, which Beane and the staff will love. He’s a big, athletic player who can create holes at the point of attack or be a threat down the seam like Gronk was. He is as reliable as they come as a receiver, only dropping two passes his entire career, and Allen could use that type of crutch early in his career. Beane and McDermott saw firsthand what an all-around tight end can do for a young QB; they had Cam Newton paired with Greg Olsen in Carolina. More importantly, Hockenson possesses the grit and “DNA” this regime loves. While most, including me, believe taking a tight end in the top ten is typically a mistake, Hockenson’s value to this team will help their young quarterback and could take Daboll’s offense to new heights." Josh Allen threw deep more then any other NFL QB past season (percentage wise) and while John Brown caught 43.3 percent of his passes while in Baltimore last year (97 targets, 42 receptions) Zay Jones had a 54.9 catch percentage, Robert Foster had a 61.4 catch percentage. I would love to see a receiver like Hock that only dropped two passes his entire college career in a Bills uni ...being that threat for Buffalo that drives defensive coordinators insane like Gronk used to do. 1
Coach Tuesday Posted April 23, 2019 Posted April 23, 2019 (edited) Keep in mind that 2020 is supposed to be a really bad year for offensive linemen. This is the year to scoop one, especially if you can grab a decent TE in later rounds. Edited April 23, 2019 by Coach Tuesday
BuffaloBillsGospel Posted April 23, 2019 Posted April 23, 2019 22 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: How dare you forget about the great Lee Smith? what I don’t get is why don’t bad teams copy what good teams do. The Pats constantly spend picks on TEs and sign FA TEs. That’s why I liked the Clay signing. It was at least an effort. When you have a young qb, you need a big target in the middle of field. I really like Beasley but he wasn’t as effective without Witten. They do but not at #9 overall, they find them in the 2nd round or later and that's why they're good teams to begin with, it all starts with drafting.
FeelingOnYouboty Posted April 23, 2019 Posted April 23, 2019 Hockenson gives us a mismatch nightmare and confuses the defense on every play because they won't be able to tell if we're running or passing. Positional value my balls man. He's a 10 year quality player who will make a few All Pro teams and is great in the locker room and will be great in the community. We all have our preferences at #9 but if we do take him I hope no one complains too much. I'll be happy with Oliver, Williams, Wilkins, Hockenson, Metcalf or Dillard at #9. I trust Beane/McDermott at this point. 1 1
Reed83HOF Posted April 23, 2019 Author Posted April 23, 2019 Good article on the TE position in this draft and valuation of it... http://www.optimumscouting.com/news/replacing-gronkowski
MacGyver Posted April 23, 2019 Posted April 23, 2019 On 4/22/2019 at 1:21 PM, golfball323 said: Personally I think it's time for Murph to move on. Might just be me but I'm getting a "too big for his britches" feeling from listening to him lately... Maybe I'm just getting old I've never liked him. I also can't stand listening to Tasker, would be nice if that show was replaced by something else.
gonzo1105 Posted April 23, 2019 Posted April 23, 2019 I have been a big Hockenson advocate. For everyone that likes Fant because he's a better athlete, The Iowa Hawkeye's are the most tradition rich TE producing school in the country. T.J. Hockenson started over Noah Fant in one TE sets. Its because he's simply a better player than Fant. He isn't as athletic but he blocks a lot better, he catched the ball more consistently than Fant(who drops a lot of passes). Who cares if you can run fast if you drop the ball. I went back and watched Travis Kelce's Cincinnati tape. He wasn't some fluid athlete in college in my opinion. He actually looked kind of lumbering if you watch his highlights. You also have to remember that he is just 21 years old. He hasn't even tapped his full potential yet. He does look slender for being 250 pounds which makes me believe he can gain another 10 pounds of muscle easy. Rob Gronkowski-4.68 Travis Kelce- 4.63 Zach Ertz- 4.76 Austin Hooper-4.68 George Kittle- 4.52 Those were the top 5 TE's in the NFL by receptions and yards last year. Seems like Hockenson's 4.7 is about right in line besides Kittle. I'm not saying the Bills are going to take him but he's a damn good prospect that everyone underrates because he didn't put up mind blowing passing statistics.
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