Whaley is an idiot.

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

What was the rank of the offense again under Whaley during that golden ONE season our defense was top 5? So how did we get stuck with also ran QBs instead of finding a franchise QB like we did with the current management team?

 

I'm agreeing with idiot.

 

Because it's been proven, over and over, how easy it is to just "find the right QB."

[row_33]

39 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Because it's been proven, over and over, how easy it is to just "find the right QB."

 

that's how most people think.

 

when they like someone then everything that person does is just fine, even up to committing mass murder

 

when they don't like someone they pick one incident and use it to tar over everything about the person.

 

it's quite amusing when it's on PPP...

 

 

[Real McClappy]

On 4/21/2019 at 8:40 PM, billieve420 said:

Leading up to the draft the were rumblings that Whaley liked Deshaun Watson.

 

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/2017/04/buffalo_bills_gm_doug_whaley_in_love_with_clemson_qb_deshaun_watson_report.html

 

If true and the Bills were drafting a QB they probably would have went with Watson over Mahomes anyway.

I would take his 6700 yds and 52 TDS in 22 games.

[Thurman#1]

23 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I was not wrong about Henderson because I specified  "on the first day of last season." He won the job, was the starter, and broke his ankle week 1 and went on IR.

 

I guess I disagree on 2013 really. It was Nix's name above the door but for me thinking that Nix was in total control of that draft a week and a half before he stood down is akin to believing that Whaley was in charge of the 2017 draft two days before being shown the door. I believe that Nix and Whaley were essentially co-GMing in that 2013 offseason. He was in on every Head Coach interview and every Quarterback draft visit. That is not the normal course of events for an assistant GM. I think Whaley gets some of the blame for EJ Manuel. I also think he gets some of the credit for what otherwise was a solid class.

 

And I never go on about the Patriots being bad drafters. They are consistently in 2-3 starters per class. They haven't drafted many stars recently (probably Tre Flowers back in 2015 is the closest they have got - though Derek Rivers and Isiah Wynn finally getting healthy might add a couple of names to that) but they are always picking late and they constantly stock their roster with solid starters and role players that fit their scheme.

 

 

Ah, I see that you said "on the first day of last season." Somehow I misread that as, "on the last day of last season." But though you weren't factually wrong, Henderson's job was by no means safe and he can't be said to have proved anything whatsoever. He could very easily have lost that job, and he could do so this year as well. I don't think you can count him as a starter in any way at this point. As I say, I really do wish him the best. My best friend is a doctor who specializes in Crohns and colitis and I know Henderson has fought through some tough breaks.

 

And I totally disagree with you linking of 2013 and 2017. We know Whaley wasn't in charge for the absolute simplest of reasons. It was in the paper about a week and a half after they hired McD that the Pegulas were wildly impressed and that he was now defacto in charge. Whereas it has never been reported anywhere official that Whaley was the co-GM, even to this day.

 

Does Whaley get some of the credit? Yeah, absolutely. He was the AGM. And yeah, he was in on every QB draft visit ... he'd been made head ... by Nix ... of a committee specifically formed to choose a QB. So he definitely gets co-credit for the Manuel decision. And yeah he was at the coaching interviews. So was Russ. Whaley was there because he was being groomed for the GM down the line. 

 

I'm glad we agree about the Pats not being bad drafters but it say something that they had much much better results those three years than we did though they were drafting much later and lost a first rounder to the Deflategate scandal. We lost a first-rounder too, but it was a very dumb voluntary move to give it up in the Watkins tradeup. During those three years they drafted Garoppolo, Flowers, James White, starting OLs Thuney and Mason, Malcom Brown, Elandon Roberts at ILB, and several guys who started for different teams last year.  Grugier-Hill started for Philly, Jordan Richards for Atlanta, Darryl Roberts with the Jets, not to mention NE's starting long-snapper for the last four years. That's ten plus the long-snapper, who can't be counted as a starter, really. Much better than us with far lower draft slots.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Thurman#1

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Ah, I see that you said "on the first day of last season." Somehow I misread that as, "on the last day of last season." But though you weren't factually wrong, Henderson's job was by no means safe and he can't be said to have proved anything whatsoever. He could very easily have lost that job, and he could do so this year as well. I don't think you can count him as a starter in any way at this point. As I say, I really do wish him the best. My best friend is a doctor who specializes in Crohns and colitis and I know Henderson has fought through some tough breaks.

 

And I totally disagree with you linking of 2013 and 2017. We know Whaley wasn't in charge for the absolute simplest of reasons. It was in the paper about a week and a half after they hired McD that the Pegulas were wildly impressed and that he was now defacto in charge. Whereas it has never been reported anywhere official that Whaley was the co-GM, even to this day.

 

Does Whaley get some of the credit? Yeah, absolutely. He was the AGM. And yeah, he was in on every QB draft visit ... he'd been made head ... by Nix ... of a committee specifically formed to choose a QB. So he definitely gets co-credit for the Manuel decision. And yeah he was at the coaching interviews. So was Russ. Whaley was there because he was being groomed for the GM down the line. 

 

I'm glad we agree about the Pats not being bad drafters but it say something that they had much much better results those three years than we did though they were drafting much later and lost a first rounder to the Deflategate scandal. We lost a first-rounder too, but it was a very dumb voluntary move to give it up in the Watkins tradeup. During those three years they drafted Garoppolo, Flowers, James White, starting OLs Thuney and Mason, Malcom Brown, Elandon Roberts at ILB, and several guys who started for different teams last year.  Grugier-Hill started for Philly, Jordan Richards for Atlanta, Darryl Roberts with the Jets, not to mention NE's starting long-snapper for the last four years. That's ten plus the long-snapper, who can't be counted as a starter, really. Much better than us with far lower draft slots.

 

Don't believe the 2013 thing because it wasn't in the paper if you like but to me it flies in the face of logic to believe that Buddy Nix was running that offseason and Whaley was just assisting. For example, the Jerry Hughes trade happened when Nix's name was above the door too..... but it has been reported that it was Grigson and Whaley who did the deal on the phone.

 

Nor was I counting Henderson as a starter. I was simply making a factual statement about the people who Whaley drafted who started on the opening day of last season. The problem with the people who think Whaley was awful is they only want to cherry pick statistics and dismiss ones that don't match their perspective. I think when you actually look at the whole picture of Doug Whaley's GMship it is a real mixed bag. He found some NFL football players in the draft but didn't find any stars. He found some real contributors in FA and off the waiver wire but didn't have a tight enough grip on the purse strings and his teams had a better win-loss record than all of his predecessors and as good as his successor but ultimately didn't every quite win enough.

[JohnC]

On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 8:33 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

Well no, I don't think Gilmore did play less hard for Buffalo (save for a few games in his last year under the "coaching" of Rex Ryan). I just think you hated the pick and undervalued him from thereon in, but we have done that debate to death and he is gone now so no benefit in re-running (he was also a clear Buddy Nix pick so not necessarily relevant to this discussion).

 

I agree with you that Whaley did not use the draft to put enough of the critical building blocks in place for a winning football team. But that is a subjective value judgment that goes beyond Ws and Ls.... if it is just Ws and Ls then at the moment Beane is at best the same as Whaley.

Beane took over shortly after McDermott was installed as the HC. Based on their actions the intention was to nearly completely rebuild the roster and restructure and rebalance the cap. It is unfair and unreasonable to use the W/L record in the first couple of years in a rebuild to compare to the prior regime that had a more established roster to work with. My biggest criticisms of Whaley relates to securing a franchise qb and his deficiency in building a roster. He had more of a player to player attitude toward roster building than a conceptual approach to building a roster than this current regime adheres to. 

 

Whaley was a below average to average  GM at best. Under his aegis this team was never going to get beyond being average. With this current tandem of McBeane at least you can see the potential to elevate the franchise beyond the mediocre level. 

[Elite Poster]

So when we like the trade down it's because McDermott was running the show and when we are allowed to say it was idiotic to pass on Mahomes it was Whaley's fault.

 

Gotta love it.

[GunnerBill]

15 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Beane took over shortly after McDermott was installed as the HC. Based on their actions the intention was to nearly completely rebuild the roster and restructure and rebalance the cap. It is unfair and unreasonable to use the W/L record in the first couple of years in a rebuild to compare to the prior regime that had a more established roster to work with. My biggest criticisms of Whaley relates to securing a franchise qb and his deficiency in building a roster. He had more of a player to player attitude toward roster building than a conceptual approach to building a roster than this current regime adheres to. 

 

Whaley was a below average to average  GM at best. Under his aegis this team was never going to get beyond being average. With this current tandem of McBeane at least you can see the potential to elevate the franchise beyond the mediocre level. 

 

My exact point to Bill was that looking purely at W-L record is a blunt instrument for judging a GM. All the other factors have to be taken into account.

[Bill from NYC]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

My exact point to Bill was that looking purely at W-L record is a blunt instrument for judging a GM. All the other factors have to be taken into account.

I understand your point.

 

Mine is that because you can point out a few players that he drafted who are "good" and a nice trade or 2 also is not proof that Whaley was a good GM. He was undisciplined, traded away our best picks, gave out ridiculous contracts, and neglected vital areas of the team to include quarterback.

 

He did however dress extremely well. The man had superb tastes in suits.

[JohnC]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

My exact point to Bill was that looking purely at W-L record is a blunt instrument for judging a GM. All the other factors have to be taken into account.

Whaley implanted his scouting mentality into his GM role. The scout evaluates players as individuals. The GM evaluates his players as pieces to a grand puzzle. I don't want to belabor this issue and dwell on DW as the source of all this franchise's problems because I recognize that he had to work with a buffoon corpulent head coach. That certainly was an albatross that no one could have overcome. (The hiring of Ryan was an inexplicable stupendous mistake by the owner that set this franchise back.) But an objective evaluation of Whaley is that he had a constricted scouting mentality in the GM position/role. A possessed a similar fatal flaw that country Buddy Nix had as a GM. In my mind Whaley, like Buddy,  was a checkers player playing in a chess tournament. He lacked the depth and broader perspective for the job he held. He was simply in over his head.  

[C.Biscuit97]

On 4/23/2019 at 7:38 AM, Bill from NYC said:

What you perhaps don't see in my posts is how I view drafts.

 

A case could be made that Gilmore, McKelvin, Watkins, and Whitner were "good" picks for the Bills because all were good players. None of them sucked; some were very good. The problem is, the team just kept on losing football games.

 

Whaley mortgaged the future of the Bills by trading for Watkins on a team. The team needed OL help and didn't have a top quarterback , thus making the trade idiotic. The Bills overlooked the QB position and blocking for decades. Whaley was part of this losing process. His other dumb moves were just too numerous to list. In the credit where its due dept., his trade for Hughes was a great one.

 

Getting rid of Whaley gave this team a chance to win. I much prefer Beane and imo, the jury is still out on McDermott.

I couldn't possibly disagree more my friend. The trick is to win football games. The results are in the won/loss record. Not many players on that list above ever took over a game and won it for the Buffalo Bills.

Under Whaley, we had a top 10 scoring offense and a top 5 defense.  But I’m sure he deserves none of that credit. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

8 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Under Whaley, we had a top 10 scoring offense and a top 5 defense.  But I’m sure he deserves none of that credit. 

 

....probably been under my rock too long, but I'm STILL not sure what kind of horsepower Whaley had as far as GM.......was he actually the final decision maker as far as personnel or more of a scout type as in "go find us this guy"?.....in current terms, do you see him on par with McBeane's apparent horsepower or less?...and as far as Mahomes, I'd bet some of the posting pundits saying NO to Patrick because he was coming from the leper like Air Raid and "no Air Raid QB EVER makes it in the NFL" have changed camps because of his year 2 success.....year 3 will be interesting if he performs similarly (cannot expect same as year 2 was extraordinary) or if opposing DC's now have an answer...

Edited April 24, 2019 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Whaley implanted his scouting mentality into his GM role. The scout evaluates players as individuals. The GM evaluates his players as pieces to a grand puzzle. I don't want to belabor this issue and dwell on DW as the source of all this franchise's problems because I recognize that he had to work with a buffoon corpulent head coach. That certainly was an albatross that no one could have overcome. (The hiring of Ryan was an inexplicable stupendous mistake by the owner that set this franchise back.) But an objective evaluation of Whaley is that he had a constricted scouting mentality in the GM position/role. A possessed a similar fatal flaw that country Buddy Nix had as a GM. In my mind Whaley, like Buddy,  was a checkers player playing in a chess tournament. He lacked the depth and broader perspective for the job he held. He was simply in over his head.  

 

That is certainly fair - but I still think all things considered the job he did was average, maybe a little below, in a difficult set of circumstances. I wouldn't call him a good GM and I do think he was probably promoted one level above his true level of competence but I wouldn't call him an idiot either.

[DrDawkinstein]

I'd put winning football games more on the coaching than the GM. The GM can only field the best on-paper roster as possible. It's the coach that needs to turn those ingredients into a real meal.

 

And we all know that Whaley never had a chance to hire his own coach, plus, he dealt with an incredible rate of turnover at all of the coaching positions. Which means major scheme changes every year.

 

We all know how poorly Rex did here. The sharp decline of the team was ALL on him. Yet some sit here and say Whaley was supposed to win those games? Makes no sense.

[Bill from NYC]

32 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Under Whaley, we had a top 10 scoring offense and a top 5 defense.  But I’m sure he deserves none of that credit. 

Yes, this is why they are beating down his door with job offers.

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

I'd put winning football games more on the coaching than the GM. The GM can only field the best on-paper roster as possible. It's the coach that needs to turn those ingredients into a real meal.

 

And we all know that Whaley never had a chance to hire his own coach, plus, he dealt with an incredible rate of turnover at all of the coaching positions. Which means major scheme changes every year.

 

We all know how poorly Rex did here. The sharp decline of the team was ALL on him. Yet some sit here and say Whaley was supposed to win those games? Makes no sense.

 

I'd happily blame everything on Rex - he was utterly clueless and wasted the best roster the Bills have fielded in my time as a fan in 2015 with some God awful coaching.

[Wsam4031]

this is all in hindsight. Last year before Mahomes went nuts lets be honest most people thought it was a good trade. I was one of them. I still am. Granted id love to have Mahomes seeing how good he is now but we got tre white and Allen out of it. As long as Allen doesn't flop out was a good trade for both teams. Time will tell

[Bill from NYC]

34 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That is certainly fair - but I still think all things considered the job he did was average, maybe a little below, in a difficult set of circumstances. I wouldn't call him a good GM and I do think he was probably promoted one level above his true level of competence but I wouldn't call him an idiot either.

Fair enough. Idiot is harsh. I think that he was a bad GM, but I do not think that he is an idiot.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

51 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Fair enough. Idiot is harsh. I think that he was a bad GM, but I do not think that he is an idiot.

I feel like this is one of those stupid political things where you trash the candidate you like and make excuses for one you like.  Imagine if Whaley;

 

- got hired after his friend got the head coaching job

- passed on Mahomes and Watson to draft a cb

- traded up for Zay Jones instead of staying put and taking JuJu or Kupp

- hired an OC that put Tyrod in a west coast passing offense

- traded multiple picks for Kelvin Benjamin after seeing how fat he was up close in Carolina

- thought Jordan Matthews could be a number 1 receiver

- entered the season with Allen and Peterman as his qbs

- signed Mike Tolbert

 

but since we like Beane we just ignore it.  Whaley was a much better GM than you will ever give him credit for.

[Bill from NYC]

8 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

 

I feel like this is one of those stupid political things where you trash the candidate you like and make excuses for one you like.  Imagine if Whaley;

 

- got hired after his friend got the head coaching job

- passed on Mahomes and Watson to draft a cb

- traded up for Zay Jones instead of staying put and taking JuJu or Kupp

- hired an OC that put Tyrod in a west coast passing offense

- traded multiple picks for Kelvin Benjamin after seeing how fat he was up close in Carolina

- thought Jordan Matthews could be a number 1 receiver

- entered the season with Allen and Peterman as his qbs

- signed Mike Tolbert

 

but since we like Beane we just ignore it.  Whaley was a much better GM than you will ever give him credit for.

I think that you have me confused with someone else. Do tell me when I ever heaped praise upon Beane, or especially McDermott. Imo both need to prove themselves. I will say that imo Beane is far more disciplined than Whaley ever thought about being.

 

You otoh are way more forgiving than I am in terms of the Bills. You have actually praised Jauron as a coach which to me is unthinkable. I'm not sure what you thought of Levy as a GM.  Now, Whaley is this great GM? Yikes!!!!! Where are their job offers CB? We both know that they are non-existent. I think that if I took stances like you I would probably be a happier person in general, but I just don't have it in me to proclaim that franchise killers such as Jauron, Levy (as GM) and Whaley were any good at their jobs.

 

 

That said, the dialogue is fun.