Whaley is an idiot.

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

This is true. I do however think that a good GM needs 10x the discipline that Whaley had.

  

As far as EJ, the team never should have been in the position in which they were forced to draft a QB in that horrible QB draft. Remember G Man, Whaley traded down 8 spots and then drafted EJ. That tells me that he was ready to lose him and draft Smith. The entire situation was embarrassingly stupid.

 

I won't disagree that the way the EJ draft went down wasn't pretty.

 

I truly believe that the year prior to Rex Ryan being hired, the Bills were legitimately a QB away from being a powerhouse.  Jim Schwartz was the key and the Pegulas royally effed up the coaching search, hire and - subsequently - the team.

 

It's just my opinion that Whaley got the team close.  I totally get the Pegulas wanting to get their own people in there.  Unfortunately, they not only handled it unprofessionally, they also effed things up pretty badly.

 

We were a QB away.  And much of that had to do with Doug Whaley.

[mead107]

Just think what the team would be like if trump bought them ?

[quincy]

52 minutes ago, NewDayBills said:

Yep to everything. I hope Beane gets to hire his own HC if he drafts well again in 2019 and the roster underperforms. We'll see. Lots of contingencies and what ifs on your end and mine. McD could coach us to 12 wins, that could be a reality as well.

 

McDermott has to go 9-7 this year to have a 50/50 win/loss record. I really hope this can be achieved/exceeded. 

 

Would McDermott make it to year 4 if he has a  losing record after year 3?

 

If McDermott coaches the Bills  to a 12 win season, he could be a 1 time, 1 organization head coach for a much different reason! ?

[LABILLBACKER]

I know we'll never really know for sure, but I'd love to know who insisted on EJ Manuel? It was always odd how Nix walked away 2 weeks after that draft.  My guess is that DW pushed the pick. He was Director of player personnel and the scouts. Doug's negative legacy will always involve EJ, Sammy & Rex.....

[C.Biscuit97]

8 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I know we'll never really know for sure, but I'd love to know who insisted on EJ Manuel? It was always odd how Nix walked away 2 weeks after that draft.  My guess is that DW pushed the pick. He was Director of player personnel and the scouts. Doug's negative legacy will always involve EJ, Sammy & Rex.....

Rex was forced on Whaley.  People honestly think Whaley wanted a coach who would completely change a top 3 defense?  

 

And while EJ and Sammy are with the stupid Chiefs, there are plenty of other Whaley guys doing awesome in the nfl.

[Happy]

1 hour ago, Rico said:

Well, this thread is flawed. Whaley has nothing to do with not taking Mahomes, and to be honest, I don’t want him anyways, I’m happy with Josh right now. We’ll soon see who has the better intangibles when it comes to being a winner.

 

That being said,  a new thread bashing Whaley is always appreciated. I particularly like reading the posters who still defend him.  

 

We completely agree with the bolded text.  I'm happy with Josh and think he has a bright future.

 

Whaley threads end up being a re-hash of what was already mentioned many times in the past.  Nothing will change.  People who like, or thought Whaley got a raw deal, will still believe this (I'm in this group.)  Those who thought Whaley was terrible and in over his head, won't change their position.  Water under the bridge; he's gone and not coming back to Buffalo.

 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Rex was forced on Whaley.  People honestly think Whaley wanted a coach who would completely change a top 3 defense?  

 

And while EJ and Sammy are with the stupid Chiefs, there are plenty of other Whaley guys doing awesome in the nfl.

 

The past couple of years playoffs have been a veritable Who's-Who of Whaley draft picks/signings. With Woods and Robey-Coleman being big contributors to the Rams, Watkins on the Rams and Chiefs, Ragland on the Chiefs, Darby on the Eagles playing alongside Whaley scouted pick Bradham, and Whaley FA Graham. Ross Cockrell started and went to the playoffs with Pittsburgh. These are just off the top of my head, the list goes on.

 

If Whaley had ever been given a stable franchise, ownership, and allowed to pick his own Head Coach, things could very well be different. Dude drafted for 6 DCs in his 5 years with the team. How crazy is that?!?

[formerlyofCtown]

20 hours ago, Bangarang said:

Whaley is an idiot for passing on Mahomes but McD is a genius for drafting Tre White...

 

Do people really believe Whaley was calling the shots in a draft where he would immediately be fired upon its completion?

Whatever fits their narrative is the truth.

[Lurker]

I can't believe this thread is still alive...

[Thurman#1]

 

16 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Okay.  I get the context now.

 

And, as far as that goes, Whaley was far from an idiot.  I remember SI calling him a 'rising star' or something like that when he was with the Steelers.  He was and is a bright guy.

 

In fact, no GM is an idiot.  All of them know far more about football than we fans do.  But some GMs are better than others.   Sadly, in his time with us, Whaley did not outperform his GM peers.  

 

16 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

He actually did.  Near the end of his tenure, someone wrote (I cannot find the link) that Doug Whaley had the highest percentage of draft picks (made during his GM career) still on NFL rosters than any of his GM peers.

 

No, he actually did not. That's not how you judge "outperforming his GM peers." Not even close.

 

But let's go with what you're doing here and focus in on Whaley's drafts. Here they are, leaving EJ out, because he was picked under the Nix regime though Whaley obviously loved him:

 

 

2014

 

1) Sammy Watkins

2) Cyrus Kouandjio

3) Preston Brown

4) Ross Cockrell

5) Cyril Richardson

7) Randell Johnson

7) Seantrel Henderson

 

2015

 

2) Ronald Darby

3) John Miller

5) Karlos Williams

6) Tony Steward

6) Nick O'Leary

7) Dezmin Lewis

 

2016

 

1) Shaq Lawson

2) Reggie Ragland

3) Adolphus Washington

4) Cardale Jones

5) Jonathan Williams

6) Kolby Listenbee

6) Kevon Seymour

 

Any way you can dream up to call that a successful draft record is more of a comment on your recreational chemicals input than on the players.

 

How many Pro Bowl seasons among these three classes? Give you a hint, it's a four-letter word that starts with "Z" and ends with "ERO."

 

How many guys there are still starting? Maybe six if Miller starts where he went? Two per year, if everything goes perfectly this year? And not a single one a core guy for this or any other team? That's pathetic.

 

This is an absolutely wretched draft record. Whaley did much better at pro personnel pickups but looking at his draft record again here made me a bit nauseous. He isn't an idiot. But he also wasn't a good GM.

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Thurman#1

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

No, he actually did not. That's not how you judge "outperforming his GM peers." Not even close.

 

But let's go with what you're doing here and focus in on Whaley's drafts. Here they are, leaving EJ out, because he was picked under the Nix regime though Whaley obviously loved him:

 

 

2014

 

1) Sammy Watkins

2) Cyrus Kouandjio

3) Preston Brown

4) Ross Cockrell

5) Cyril Richardson

7) Randell Johnson

7) Seantrel Henderson

 

2015

 

2) Ronald Darby

3) John Miller

5) Karlos Williams

6) Tony Steward

6) Nick O'Leary

7) Dezmin Lewis

 

2016

 

1) Shaq Lawson

2) Reggie Ragland

3) Adolphus Washington

4) Cardale Jones

5) Jonathan Williams

6) Kolby Listenbee

6) Kevon Seymour

 

Any way you can dream up to call that a successful draft record is more of a comment on your recreational chemicals input than on the players.

 

How many Pro Bowl seasons among these three classes? Give you a hint, it's a four-letter word that starts with "Z" and ends with "ERO."

 

How many guys there are still starting? Maybe six if Miller starts where he went? Two per year? That's pathetic.

 

This is an absolutely wretched draft record.

 

 

So on the first day of last season Watkins, Brown, Henderson, Darby, Miller, Ragland and Lawson started. There was a further 4 starters: Woods, Alonso, Goodwin and Hopkins out of the 2013 class that Whaley was undoubtedly extremely involved in (though as you say Nix was still GM in name). And two to three starters a year is actually right about league average for what you get out of draft classes. What is true, absolutely true, is that he failed to find anyone who was a top end difference maker. No pro bowlers in 3 (or in fact 4 if you give him 2013) drafts. He wasn't an awful drafter. He was below average though.

[Thurman#1]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

So on the first day of last season Watkins, Brown, Henderson, Darby, Miller, Ragland and Lawson started. There was a further 4 starters: Woods, Alonso, Goodwin and Hopkins out of the 2013 class that Whaley was undoubtedly extremely involved in (though as you say Nix was still GM in name). And two to three starters a year is actually right about league average for what you get out of draft classes. What is true, absolutely true, is that he failed to find anyone who was a top end difference maker. No pro bowlers in 3 (or in fact 4 if you give him 2013) drafts. He wasn't an awful drafter. He was below average though.

 

 

Two to three starters a year is indeed right about league average, with two being significantly below league average and three being a bit above.

 

And I don't give Whaley 2013, nor should anyone, unless they want to have a discussion on how good of an assistant GM he was.

 

Also, you're wrong about Seantrel Henderson. I was always rooting for him, so I wish he had started last year, but he only played in one game last year, week one. He did sign an one year extension with Houston this last January, so I hope he can make things work. But that's six starters in three drafts. No pro bowls and no core guys. Watkins, Preston Brown, Darby, Miller, Ragland and Lawson, in three years.

 

People go on about how bad the Pats are at drafting. (Which is nonsense, really, for a team that always drafts late they're pretty good.) But their 2014 -2016 classes have a lot more guys still starting. And that includes a lost first rounder from Deflategate.

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Two to three starters a year is indeed right about league average, with two being significantly below league average and three being a bit above.

 

And I don't give Whaley 2013, nor should anyone, unless they want to have a discussion on how good of an assistant GM he was.

 

Also, you're wrong about Seantrel Henderson. I was always rooting for him, so I wish he had started last year, but he only played in one game last year, week one. He did sign an one year extension with Houston this last January, so I hope he can make things work. But that's six starters in three drafts. No pro bowls and no core guys. Watkins, Preston Brown, Darby, Miller, Ragland and Lawson, in three years.

People go on about how bad the Pats are at drafting. (Which is nonsense, really, for a team that always drafts late they're pretty good.) But their 2014 -2016 classes have a lot more guys still starting. And that includes a lost first rounder from Deflategate.

 

I was not wrong about Henderson because I specified  "on the first day of last season." He won the job, was the starter, and broke his ankle week 1 and went on IR.

 

I guess I disagree on 2013 really. It was Nix's name above the door but for me thinking that Nix was in total control of that draft a week and a half before he stood down is akin to believing that Whaley was in charge of the 2017 draft two days before being shown the door. I believe that Nix and Whaley were essentially co-GMing in that 2013 offseason. He was in on every Head Coach interview and every Quarterback draft visit. That is not the normal course of events for an assistant GM. I think Whaley gets some of the blame for EJ Manuel. I also think he gets some of the credit for what otherwise was a solid class.

 

And I never go on about the Patriots being bad drafters. They are consistently in 2-3 starters per class. They haven't drafted many stars recently (probably Tre Flowers back in 2015 is the closest they have got - though Derek Rivers and Isiah Wynn finally getting healthy might add a couple of names to that) but they are always picking late and they constantly stock their roster with solid starters and role players that fit their scheme.

[Gugny]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

No, he actually did not. That's not how you judge "outperforming his GM peers." Not even close.

 

But let's go with what you're doing here and focus in on Whaley's drafts. Here they are, leaving EJ out, because he was picked under the Nix regime though Whaley obviously loved him:

 

 

2014

 

1) Sammy Watkins

2) Cyrus Kouandjio

3) Preston Brown

4) Ross Cockrell

5) Cyril Richardson

7) Randell Johnson

7) Seantrel Henderson

 

2015

 

2) Ronald Darby

3) John Miller

5) Karlos Williams

6) Tony Steward

6) Nick O'Leary

7) Dezmin Lewis

 

2016

 

1) Shaq Lawson

2) Reggie Ragland

3) Adolphus Washington

4) Cardale Jones

5) Jonathan Williams

6) Kolby Listenbee

6) Kevon Seymour

 

Any way you can dream up to call that a successful draft record is more of a comment on your recreational chemicals input than on the players.

 

How many Pro Bowl seasons among these three classes? Give you a hint, it's a four-letter word that starts with "Z" and ends with "ERO."

 

How many guys there are still starting? Maybe six if Miller starts where he went? Two per year, if everything goes perfectly this year? And not a single one a core guy for this or any other team? That's pathetic.

 

This is an absolutely wretched draft record. Whaley did much better at pro personnel pickups but looking at his draft record again here made me a bit nauseous. He isn't an idiot. But he also wasn't a good GM.

 

 

Pro Bowl?  You're going to measure a GM's success on the rate of Pro Bowl appearances by players drafted?  If Doug Whaley picked players who sustained NFL careers, then he did his job.

 

Doug Whaley did not hire Rex Ryan, which is the only reason why the Bills went from having a #3 defense to becoming a laughing stock and completely rebuilding (again).

 

He brought good players in.  Was he a great GM?  No.  But he was not a bad one, by any stretch.

[Bill from NYC]

17 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

 

youre my guy Bill but when you don’t like something, you ignore all the positives. Whaley has his faults but man, some of you go completely overboard.  I bet after his first year or 2, we had a lot of similar posts about how good he was like we do with McBeane.

 

What you perhaps don't see in my posts is how I view drafts.

 

A case could be made that Gilmore, McKelvin, Watkins, and Whitner were "good" picks for the Bills because all were good players. None of them sucked; some were very good. The problem is, the team just kept on losing football games.

 

Whaley mortgaged the future of the Bills by trading for Watkins on a team. The team needed OL help and didn't have a top quarterback , thus making the trade idiotic. The Bills overlooked the QB position and blocking for decades. Whaley was part of this losing process. His other dumb moves were just too numerous to list. In the credit where its due dept., his trade for Hughes was a great one.

 

Getting rid of Whaley gave this team a chance to win. I much prefer Beane and imo, the jury is still out on McDermott.

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

Pro Bowl?  You're going to measure a GM's success on the rate of Pro Bowl appearances by players drafted?  If Doug Whaley picked players who sustained NFL careers, then he did his job.

 

I couldn't possibly disagree more my friend. The trick is to win football games. The results are in the won/loss record. Not many players on that list above ever took over a game and won it for the Buffalo Bills.

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

 

I couldn't possibly disagree more my friend. The trick is to win football games. The results are in the won/loss record. Not many players on that list above ever took over a game and won it for the Buffalo Bills.

 

Agree - although that is a bit too simplistic for judging GMs. That said if you do as Thurman suggests and give 2013 to Nix then Whaley was exactly .500 as the GM of the Bills, which is the best win ratio we have had from a GM in what seems like forever. If you include 2013 he was .468 - which is exactly the same record as Beane. As I say, W-L alone is a blunt instrument when evaluating GMs. It is only ever part of the picture.

[Bill from NYC]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agree - although that is a bit too simplistic for judging GMs. That said if you do as Thurman suggests and give 2013 to Nix then Whaley was exactly .500 as the GM of the Bills, which is the best win ratio we have had from a GM in what seems like forever. If you include 2013 he was .468 - which is exactly the same record as Beane. As I say, W-L alone is a blunt instrument when evaluating GMs. It is only ever part of the picture.

I completely acknowledge your point, but I do not want the Buffalo Bills to serve as a farm team for other franchises, to include New England. Gilmore sure did play harder and better on the pats than he did on the Bills, no?

Imo, the draft is the best tool for building a winning football team. A foundation must be built this way. Trading away all those picks for a receiver was just stupid when you have no quarterback and so-so blocking at best.

I do not enjoy watching Bills draftees winning games for other teams.

We have a quarterback now. I really do hope that we get him some blocking and offensive weapons so we can win football games.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Bill from NYC said:

I completely acknowledge your point, but I do not want the Buffalo Bills to serve as a farm team for other franchises, to include New England. Gilmore sure did play harder and better on the pats than he did on the Bills, no?

Imo, the draft is the best tool for building a winning football team. A foundation must be built this way. Trading away all those picks for a receiver was just stupid when you have no quarterback and so-so blocking at best.

I do not enjoy watching Bills draftees winning games for other teams.

We have a quarterback now. I really do hope that we get him some blocking and offensive weapons so we can win football games.

 

Well no, I don't think Gilmore did play less hard for Buffalo (save for a few games in his last year under the "coaching" of Rex Ryan). I just think you hated the pick and undervalued him from thereon in, but we have done that debate to death and he is gone now so no benefit in re-running (he was also a clear Buddy Nix pick so not necessarily relevant to this discussion).

 

I agree with you that Whaley did not use the draft to put enough of the critical building blocks in place for a winning football team. But that is a subjective value judgment that goes beyond Ws and Ls.... if it is just Ws and Ls then at the moment Beane is at best the same as Whaley.

[Gugny]

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

What you perhaps don't see in my posts is how I view drafts.

 

A case could be made that Gilmore, McKelvin, Watkins, and Whitner were "good" picks for the Bills because all were good players. None of them sucked; some were very good. The problem is, the team just kept on losing football games.

 

Whaley mortgaged the future of the Bills by trading for Watkins on a team. The team needed OL help and didn't have a top quarterback , thus making the trade idiotic. The Bills overlooked the QB position and blocking for decades. Whaley was part of this losing process. His other dumb moves were just too numerous to list. In the credit where its due dept., his trade for Hughes was a great one.

 

Getting rid of Whaley gave this team a chance to win. I much prefer Beane and imo, the jury is still out on McDermott.

I couldn't possibly disagree more my friend. The trick is to win football games. The results are in the won/loss record. Not many players on that list above ever took over a game and won it for the Buffalo Bills.

 

He put the team in a position where they were winning games (Bills went 9-7 in Marrone's last season); They were a QB away (I know I'm being repetitive, but it's relevant to the discussion).  There are many GMs who've brought in legitimate talent at most positions, but have struggled to get the right QB.  Whaley was one of those GMs.

[EasternOHBillsFan]

On 4/21/2019 at 7:32 PM, Gugny said:

An idiot who built a top 5 NFL defense, only to be torn down by Kim Pegula hiring Rex Ryan.

 

And everyone on earth was surprised that the Chiefs traded up to get Mahomes.  Don't act like it was a given.  Far from it.

 

What was the rank of the offense again under Whaley during that golden ONE season our defense was top 5? So how did we get stuck with also ran QBs instead of finding a franchise QB like we did with the current management team?

 

I'm agreeing with idiot.